Thanks Roy. Even though I discovered the fuel gauge problem a month ago I haven't had a chance to fix it. Your instructions will help a lot.
In keeping in my tradition, I have bought a gas gauge off of ebay. Ironically it's from a 1980 Trans Am, although as you say, just about any gauge from 1965 on will work, as long as the needle moves the right way. Interestingly the 3rd gen Trans am deflects the wrong way and won't work.
I had a little setback this week as my temperature gauge stopped working. I thought loose wire behind the dash. No problem right...wrong. To make a long story short, I had an open develop somewhere in the wire between the ignition switch and C500.
I stopped my troubleshooting at that point and ran another wire from the gauge to C500. I might have damaged the orignal wire in the process of installing my console. I may never know what happened. In any case my temperature gauge is working again. One of the hazards of cutting and drilling I suppose.
I hope to get everything bolted down in their permanent locations this week. I have just about completed my environmental controls. I can tell you that even though they will work I'm not totally happy. The knobs are kind of sloppy and don't fit the shafts all that well. I will probably start working on a second set to replace these and hopefully it will turn out better.
- Jonathan (Jscott1)
[ Edited to add pic since I'm at the top of page-9] ------------------ If you find my advice useful, then please give me a positive rating, thanks...
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 12-25-2002).]
I thought it was time for a little update. The pictures below show the door panels with the sculpted foam (white part). It sticks out about 3/4" and is rounded like the Firebird panels. I'll try and get a better photo later. The black is an insert made of waterproof cardboard and will be covered is a contrasting color. All that's left is the vinyl upholstery and it'll be finished. I think I captured the essence of the Firebird interior. The last photo is a window view of the car. It really changes it's personality, doesn't it?
------------------ Roy :D Blue 87 GT w/ 4th generation Firebird interior. Suncoast Fieros
Your door panels came out great even before the vinyl is applied. Keep it coming.
I have spent the last few days working on my environmental controls. I don't know what made me think the relay setup would be easier than your 5 layer switch. It has turned out to be a bigger job than I imagined.
Yeah, when I look at my car now it doesn't even look and feel the same. It looks and feels like a little Firebird, like maybe what a 2003 Firebird would look like, (if there were such a thing).
- Joanthan (Jscott1)
------------------ If you find my advice useful, then please give me a positive rating, thanks...
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 12-28-2002).]
Here is an update on my progress. Not nearly as visually interesting as Roy's update today, but here is what I have been working on...
The environmental controls are another area Roy and I took different approaches. Roy used a 5 level switch, and I am using a single level switch and relays with a logic board to achieve the same effect.
This is mainly because my local electronics parts outlet did not have 5 level switches. Well it's turned out to be a big deal to get it built.
The other difference is that I am using the Fiero temperature control cable and modifying the firebird control knob to work with it. Roy used the Firebird cable and modified the fiero airbox.
The main reason I didn't do that is because I didn't get a firebird cable until after my dash was in and I didn't feel like pulling it out to install the cable, and I don't think it's long enough anyway.
The last difference is that I am using the rear defogger switch as an A/C compressor on/off switch. (Since I don't have a rear defogger the switch would not have been used.) The thing is though is that the firebird defogger is a momentary switch, so I needed something to convert it to an off/on switch. I started to do it electronically, but the circuit started to get very complicated with relays, transistors, capacitors and what not, so I decided to physically replace the switch with a alternate action on/off swtitch. I had just the perfect switch but I screwed it up during the intallation, so I need to get another one on monday and try again.
Last but not least, my single level switch was acting real sloppy because I didn't grind the shaft to the right diameter, so I got another switch today to start over and see if I can get it right.
I really thought this would all be behind me by now and get back to the fun stuff. but that's the breaks sometimes.
- Jonathan (JScott1)
Just to keep this thread interesting, here another view of the dash
------------------ If you find my advice useful, then please give me a positive rating, thanks...
Those door panels are sweet. Here are my questions. 1. Can one use the Fiero climate controls if needed (Firebird climate control panels locally are made of unobtainium...) 2. Where does one purchase the foam for sculpting the molds for the computer cover and the door panels? Thanks for the ideas, my Northstar Fiero will be totally modern now (once I finish it.) S.Williams 1988 Fiero ("Fastback Coupe Northstar Project Car)
Those door panels are sweet. Here are my questions. 1. Can one use the Fiero climate controls if needed (Firebird climate control panels locally are made of unobtainium...))
Of course it can be used but you'll need to come up with a way to mount it onto the Firebird dash. The Fiero control panels is more narrow. My first attempt was to do just that. My dash came with a stripped control panel (someone had already grabbed the knobs and the panel face) so I cut the out center of the panel and fastened the Fiero control panels to it then cut and fit the Fiero trim plate over the top to fill in the edges. It looked pretty good but once I figure out how to make the Firebird panel work I set it asside. I still have it and if your interested I'll take a couple of pictures to show you what I mean.
quote
2. Where does one purchase the foam for sculpting the molds for the computer cover and the door panels?
For the door panels I bought closed cell foam from a local upholstry supply store. I used mostly 1/4" (three layers) that cost about $8 per linear yard (54" wide).
The computer cover was sculpted out of stryrofoam that I bought from a craft store. I scupted, I covered it with masking tape as a barrior before applying the fiberglass resin. I gave a little more discriptive explanation of it earlier in the thread.
I was considering the EL gauge style conversion if I do this Firebird dash, but how do you incorporate the new/old fuel guage?
Fantastic job guys!
John
The gauge seems to be working fine. I haven't had the car on the road much since I replaced the gauge so I've not used much fuel. But, It does deflect correctly when you turn the switch and when I filled the tank it re-registered higher indicating that it recognized a change in resistance from the sending unit.
I'm a little confused with your last question specifically: "how do you incorporate the new/old fuel gauge". I explained how I did it at the bottom of the previous page (page 8). Is this what your asking? If not, could you clearify your question so I can have another crack at the answer?
My inquiry was, the new feul guage from the older car, is it compatable with the EL gauge set? OR, does it require two diffrent sets of EL gauges to have the correct markings for both sets of gauges?
As far as testing the gauge goes, why not swing by my place in Davenport and see (read as give advice) for my 86GT?
I think you two guys are still talking past each other. If you do the firebird dash and use firebird gauges, then you will have a firebird faceplate. If you go EL then you will need a firebird EL faceplate. Either way it is not going to care what type of gauge is behind it.
The only requirement is that the replacement gauge have appoximately the same amount of deflection as the original gauge. It doesn't have to be completely accurate as the Fiero sender is not that accurate, (unless you recently replaced it with a new one).
I hope this is clear to everyone. I am still waiting to get my replacement gauge to make the swap. As soon as I do I will post my method. No doubt in some way will be slightly different.
Thanks for the answers to my questions. Any pictures are welcome (Fiero climate controls) Anyway have a safe and happy New Years! S.Williams 1988 Fiero
Ohh....Bump.... Thats the first bump ever from me...(GRIN)
1986GTV8 -- Most all the left-to-right deflecting gauges have the same degre of sweep. If your truly concerned about accuracy, make a template tracing of the Firebit geuge and extend the "E" and "F" lines a little to creat a "V" shape. Then take it to the junkyard and use it as an overlay. But, from experience, I can say that of the five or so gauges that I've removed, the sweep rance and angle are almost identical.
As far the EL stuff... what jscott1 said. (Thanks for help with the clearification Jonathan). Once the gauge is installed, the face look totally stock. If you want EL gauge face, buy one for a Firebird.
Maybe when I get the door panels completed I'll make a little road trip to Davenport to a little show-n-tell.
htexans1 -- Look back a few pages. I discribed how I modified the Firebird control panel to operate the Fiero environmental control actuators.
Awesome work. Mrfixit58 it looks great, can’t wait to see it in person. Jscott1 excellent work. Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety percent perspiration and nine percent luck . Both you guys have done a great job.
I finally finished my environmental controls. I must have spent 40 hours on this one thing alone. It should not have been that complicated but I had to repeat several things. I don't think I would recommend doing it this way.
First, I had to replace the rotary switch with a new one so that I could get a better fit from the knob to the shaft.
Then, the surplus relays that I used turned out to be normally closed and I thought they were normally open so everything was working backwards. I had to scrap those relays and start over.
Finally, the alternate action on/off switch for the compressor had to be replaced by another switch and it must have taken me 6 hours to get it mounted properly. I almost gave up on it, but now I can get cold A/C air on my feet, (something Pontiac didn't want us to have for some reason.) As a bonus it also doubles as a coolant fan switch.
Everything is getting bolted down now, and soon I should have pictures of the final assembly. Here is a preview of the center console, (which I painted to give it a chrome/aluminum look)
------------------ If you find my advice useful, then please give me a positive rating, thanks...
Originally posted by mrfixit58: Of course it can be used but you'll need to come up with a way to mount it onto the Firebird dash. The Fiero control panels is more narrow. My first attempt was to do just that. My dash came with a stripped control panel (someone had already grabbed the knobs and the panel face) so I cut the out center of the panel and fastened the Fiero control panels to it then cut and fit the Fiero trim plate over the top to fill in the edges. It looked pretty good but once I figure out how to make the Firebird panel work I set it asside. I still have it and if your interested I'll take a couple of pictures to show you what I mean.
I'd like to see some pictures of it, if its not too much of a bother
I really am liking how this is coming out. Cant wait for the ending and a website that has everything jammed together. Like I said before, if you send me all the pics and some descriptions to go with each image I will make a site and host it if I can.
I have had the idea of the Grand Prix interior for awhile, mainly because I will be doing a 3800 GenIII mod in about 1 1/2 - 2 years so the GTP's built in boost controls and such flow nicely, but the Firebird one is still nice to me. I just dont know if the GP one would fit, plus a bit of center console modding would be needed for the manual shifter.
mrfixit58, your the envy of blue fiero owners everywhere
------------------ --Adam-- 1987 Blue GT 5-speed IM AOL: GTFiero Remember, always brush your milk, drink your teeth, dont do sleep and get eight hours of drugs
Drive it like you stole it...nice and slow so you dont get your @$$ caught by the cops
naski18 -- here are a few shoots of the modified Firebird control panel I made to accept the Fiero controls. To fasten Fiero controls to it I used some 3M plastic adheasive to build the corners then drilled it and used screws to make it secure. It could just as easily been glued directly to the panel itself. I removed the section from the middle of the old Fiero face plate and used it to cover the gap.
Sorry but, I don't have a shot of it installed. However, I did try it out and it looked OK. If I were to do it over again, I would mount everything a little farther out. The way it is now there is a gap between the Firebird bezel and the face plate. I built it before I had the Firebird bezel. Anyway, maybe it'll help to give you a few ideas.
Roy's Fiero control panel is exactly what I had planned to do, but opted to modify the Firebird panel instead. But it was a lot of work, (the way I did it). If I could do it over I would use the Fiero panel as shown above and then later add the Firebird panel when I had time.
I am right in the middle of bolting everything into their final location...stay tuned for updates soon.
To keep this thread interesting, here is a comparison of my Firebird interior to the interior of my 97 Trans Am, (that I no longer own ) (Note the pedals on the Fiero are the exact same pedals from the TA.)
Beautiful!! Simply Beautiful. It took me a while to read everything but I have to say that it was worth it. You three are on the brink of a big thing happening here. When the kit is done and everything is detailed and planned out, I am going straight to the boneyard. I live in Chicago so they should be plentiful here. I've thought about interiors from the Bonneville to Grand Prix to the Grand Am. Didn't even think about the Firebird. I am so glad that Roy directed me to this thread. It seems like a lot of work but well worth it for the updated look. Unfortunately (to an extent) I will have to go with the Roy design due to the fact that I have an automatic. From what it seems is that it is the best way to go if using an auto. Unless there is a way to angle the shifter backwards about an inch or so...(hint, hint to jelly2m8) and use the snake shifter from the Firebird. I only say unfortunately because of the extra work to go through with cutting and welding. May be cheaper to outsource than buy the tools myself and possibly screw it up..lol. But it looks damn nice. May serve another purpose also by being further back. I'm a 6 footer and would love all the room I can get..lol. Speaking of room, tilt wheel still works....right?
Now what to do about the shift area? I currently have no idea. Use the Firebird's and try to merge it with the console above somehow? Possibly. Doubt it. But when that is figured out, I found a really nice dual cupholder in AutoZone. You can pretty much drill through the bottom holes in it to mount it to anything. I have it in my car now and I love it!!! Hope I can get PIP to work... This one is of the console me and a buddy of mine made. Not getting the sound we wanted so instead of redesigning, I'm getting the one I mentioned earlier.
StevenRossi may be able to offer a little more info on this mod.
I know first things first guys. Not trying to jump the gun. Just something extra to offer once the kit is completed and ready for sale.
Overall, this is a great idea and can't wait to see the final product. With the kit, dash, door panels, and electronics, it would be nice to see this whole thing price out to about $800 - $1200 complete. Compared to what's on the market, I'd prefer this.
[This message has been edited by Blade_69 (edited 01-05-2003).]
[This message has been edited by Blade_69 (edited 01-05-2003).]
I just wanted to pass along a picture and a big THANKS to Fred (RAREW66) for the fantastic piece of artwork. And what a pleasure to deal with. Pure polished stainless steel. I'm going to mount on my new computer cover. What do you think? Way Cool, huh?
Here's a picture of the computer cover from a little farther away.
I was in the process of finding a prefect console for my car.Since I have switched to a 4spd tranny my shifter bezel does not look professional at all.Today I purchased a third gen shifter,glovebox console that I will be putting in.How narrow is the 4th gen console? I also have a back up consol from a 90' grand prix put it looks too narrow.
------------------ 1986 Fiero SE www.2m6performance.tk Let me tell you what Melba Toast is packin' right here, alright. We got 411 Positrac outback, 750 double pumper Edelbrock intakes, bored over 30, 11 to 1 pop-up pistons, turbo-jet 390 horsepower. We're talkin' some fu*kin' muscle!
Heres what Im going for,I will be cutting away the stock Camaro radio surround and blend the console in with a mix of camaro/fiero parts.Those little heat vents will also be made functional
I choose the third gen console because the older corvette ones are just too expensive
------------------ 1986 Fiero SE www.2m6performance.tk Let me tell you what Melba Toast is packin' right here, alright. We got 411 Positrac outback, 750 double pumper Edelbrock intakes, bored over 30, 11 to 1 pop-up pistons, turbo-jet 390 horsepower. We're talkin' some fu*kin' muscle!
Heres a shot of the t/a version i'll be going to a yard to pick this one up tommorow,then I can compare which one will work better right now Im thinking the T/A console is a better choice.
I was looking for something like that for my door panels so that they don't look too much like Firebird panels.
This thread is really starting to take me down memory lane. I owned a 3rd gen Firebird for 5 years so that interior is very familiar to me as well. Even though it dates from the same era as the Fiero I think it looks better.
I need to get back out to the garage and make some more custom brackets for my dash. I can tell everyone that mounting the dash the way I am doing it is a pain in the A$$. It's real tricky to get everything lined up the way I want it. The dash is like a wet noodle. You push on it in one area and it bulges out somewhere else.
If I would have had the benefit of Roy's work on the mule when I started this I never would have chosen to do it this way. I'm hoping I can make it acceptable though.
If anyone is contemplating the Firebird gauges swap here is the wiring diagram, and instructions how to read it.
There are three connectors for the Fiero cluster. C1, C2, C3. The majority of the functions go thought C3. A couple through C2, and only the speedometer through C1.
You will leave the circuit board for C1 behind the dash, (for ECM divide by two function) so you really only tap into one wire there.
C1 is the connector on the bottom of the cluster to this board and it's "lettered" from A to U. I tapped into the "M" (BRN) for the speedo which is the electrohydraulic power steering output. I have no idea if non-88s have this implemented. If not then you have to use VSS high "S" (YEL) Roy can confirm this.
C2 is numbered from 1 to 12 starting with 1 in the 4 o' clock position.
C3 is numbered from 1 to 18 with 1 in the 1 o'clock position.
On the Firebird there is one connector with 34 pins in two rows. Top row is A1 to A17 and bottom row is B1 to B17 both starting on the left.
(these are all described as viewing the cluster, not the connector)
If you are in doubt which is pin 1 you can cross reference by the color and it should be obvious.
If I have made an error in describing this, perhaps someone can help me out, but I know my gauges work, so I must have done it right at least once
So here it is:
I've printed this sideways to maximixe resolution. You can ignore the custom harness colors. They are specific to my car and unless you choose to wire yours the same way those designations are meaningless. Good luck.
------------------ If you find my advice useful, then please give me a positive rating, thanks...
specifically: "how do you incorporate the new/old fuel gauge". I explained how I did it at the bottom of the previous page (page 8). Is this what your asking? If not, could you clearify your question so I can have another crack at the answer?
) (Note the pedals on the Fiero are the exact same pedals from the TA.)
