Sorry guys I wish this had turned out better for both of you. Hopefully the build will survive the issues encountered. I also hope both of you will be able to move on and not carry this with you for too long. Speaking from experience, this kind of negativity can mess with yor perspective.

That was an appropriate way to accidentally start a new page. Thanks for the kind words.
The build will most definitely continue, there is a lot more to come.

I'm not sure if you have changed the cam or not yet, but wouldn't it be easier and more beneficial to switch to the 3x00 roller cam so you could use stock length 3x00 pushrods lifters etc.

Just a little idea about the dog bone mount on your swap.. This was done on my 3400 and works really well. only issue with it is accessibility. Its mounted on the front of the engine to the cradle and it works exceptionally well and outweighs the cons of accessibility. I'll get you pics of my setup if you like.

quote Originally posted by mtownfiero: I'm not sure if you have changed the cam or not yet, but wouldn't it be easier and more beneficial to switch to the 3x00 roller cam so you could use stock length 3x00 pushrods lifters etc.

Unfortunately the factory roller cam setups are not compatible with the older non-roller cam blocks. I'm never going to touch another flat-tappet cam again, though. I've only ever had trouble with them.

PK, sure, pics won't hurt. Not saying I'm hot on the idea, but I never mind seeing a pic or two.

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: Unfortunately the factory roller cam setups are not compatible with the older non-roller cam blocks. I'm never going to touch another flat-tappet cam again, though. I've only ever had trouble with them. PK, sure, pics won't hurt. Not saying I'm hot on the idea, but I never mind seeing a pic or two.

sure thing. I'll grab some tomorrow for ya. its already up on jacks so it shouldent take long to get them.

Bump

Any progress?

The Riv

Only that I cleaned out a lot of needed space in my garage.

I'll be posting updates as I fix the problems, one at a time.

A few weeks ago my Camaro and my wife's Civic got broken into at 3am. Both of the Camaro's side windows were shattered and the driver's side on her car, and our stuff was rummaged through. We don't even keep anything worth of value in the cars because we aren't stupid.

Long story short, I've been full-time busy designing and installing a bada$$ surveillance/security system for my house and property. It's enough to warrant its own build thread (but that's not gonna happen). So, the Fiero is on hold for even longer. There's no point in doing anything to it if it's just going to screwed with (or worse) by some lowlife pathetic scum. I did get my back-ordered pushrod length checker in, though.

That stinks.

Bump

One question for ya Steve .... Why the h**l would you build a 3100 turbo when every one knows those motors have a crap load of problems in the valve train and bottom end ..... Just a question ??

Hope the camaro is good that car was sweet ... Will be getting one soon !!
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BLUE BY YOU!
NYFOC

[This message has been edited by Hardpact (edited 10-10-2011).]

They don't... where do you get that info? Does this question have anything to do with the conversation at the show? The only common problem with the Gen III's is the lower intake manifold gasket leaks, but that is 100% corrected by replacing the gasket with a metal Felpro gasket and torquing it to the revised GM specs. IIRC, a lot of 3800's have that exact same gasket problem.
I have a coworker with over 300,000 miles on his Lumina with the original 3100 and it has never been opened up (the transmission is a different story, but I digress...)

Oh yeah, they do have valvetrain problems when two-faced jerks think they know everything then install pushrods that are too short because they don't need to be told how it's done. Ya got me there.

The Camaro is doing great, thanks. I still love driving it every day! You should love yours too, please PM me when you get it! I hope your Fiero is doing great too, that car is sweet.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-10-2011).]

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[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 10-13-2011).]

I tried before, on the last page, to get over it and continue on (even ignoring Dave's last post on that page that was also full of either inaccurate accounts or outright lies), and I will eventually get over it for good, but I really am still pissed. I should be DRIVING this car right now as I should have been able to do away from that shop.
It isn't about money, it isn't just about a project car, it's about honestly, integrity, and seeing a man's true character when conflict arises.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: First off, your car wasn't mentioned at the show. Second, I built the motor to your specs and argued with you every step of the way before I finally gave in and did it your way all while questioning why we were building something with a blown engine. And, for you to say I was wrong for measuring valve lash, I was trying to make a point that your engine HAD excessive and uneven valve lash to prove the cam lobes were worn unevenly. There should not have been any lash. Your timing chain was falling out, I had to Time-Sert the block because there were no threads, we rebuilt your heads and you freaked out, but you wanted them cc tested???? Your build didn't make any sense to any of the three of us that worked on it. And finally, you call me a two faced jerk again....we will finish this conversation in person. Dave

First off... You imply that I jack off to car magazines in my cubicle but I can't say you're a two-faced jerk? At least one of those is true... from everything I've experienced anyway (hint: I don't even have a cubicle.) Go ahead and make all the threats you want (it's a free internet), I ain't skeered.
Secondly, how the hell do you know that my car wasn't mentioned, were you involved in every single conversation there? Believe it or not, there are people who were there that are quite interested in my build, you involved or not.

Blown engine? Why does it start up just fine then, without any noises other than the valvetrain that you failed on, and without any major loss of compression or any other signs of a 'blown engine'?
You were trying to make a point about the valve lash? After you had put it together incorrectly and then diagnosed it with a lifter tick that should go away eventually? (I've never had lifters take longer than a couple seconds to prime, even when brand new, but I trusted you knew what you were doing so I gave you the benefit of a doubt). Any competent engine builder knows that you would check all of that before it's buttoned up. As for the uneven lash (which you should have caught while you were measuring for pushrods), what you had measured once the "lifter tick" wouldn't go away was well within the adjustment of the lifters when they're put together properly. Obviously there shouldn't be much of a difference, but it wouldn't even have showed up as an issue. Your actual 'point' in checking the valve lash was "to be sure it was not incorrect pushrods" (that's a direct quote).
Nice try in attempting to distract from the fact (you are good at that I must admit)... you put my valvetrain together wrong after telling me to order pushrods that were actually too short, then you personally told me that this engine is SUPPOSED to have some valve lash. Since you previously ran all around the internet (at least 60degreev6.com anyway) looking for what I've posted, you probably also saw this question that I posted there, which was answered by Ben (site owner, and someone who knows a helluva lot more about building these engines than you do)...
http://60degreev6.com/forum...ion-about-valve-lash
Valve "lash" on this engine is supposed to be about -.071" (that's a negative sign because that's how far INTO the lifter the pushrods are supposed to sit, in other words, no lash at all)
Timing chains wear out, sometimes so much that they break. I know of at least three engines that were worn enough that the timing chains either broke or were "about to fall off". The timing chains were replaced, and those engines went on for at least several thousand more miles (I lost track of them because two of them weren't mine and I sold the third). You replaced it, and low and behold, that isn't the problem with this engine.

Time-serts... It's time to revisit that...

Way back I posted in this thread that I had some ideas why, but whatever the cause of the threads pulling out was neither here nor there... well it's here. Just for the fun of 'enjoying' those sexy car magazines, I went and looked this up, though I learned about it way back in Auto Service Technology class at the local tech school:

quote Part of the fun of building an engine is ensuring that all the threaded holes in the block are in good shape and ready to handle the torque loads for fasteners like head and main cap bolts. While you might not give much thought to the quality of these threads, it's a royal pain when the threads pull out when you're torquing that last head bolt. Standard taps are actually designed to cut new threads rather than chase existing ones. Every time you use a standard tap to chase a set of head bolt threads, for example, the tap will also remove more of the existing threads. This reduces the overlap of the female threads in the block to the male threads on the bolt. This reduced overlap can often lead to stripped threads on these larger bolts. In the old days, savvy engine-builders only ran a tap through these bolt holes once, and employed a very old or used tap that did not cut as deeply into the female threads. While that's still a trick that you can use today, ARP has come up with a set of new taps that will accomplish the same goal. These taps are specifically designed to be used as thread-chasers to clean dirt and junk from the threads, yet remove as little parent thread material as possible. If you enjoy building engines, keep this little trick in mind the next time you get ready to clean those threads. It might save you grief down the road. Read more: ]http://www.carcraft.com/tec...xzz1aOmuFYko

Whether or not that played a part to begin with, timeserts were installed... problem eliminated, still no "blown engine".

Freaked out? Seriously? According to you at the time, the heads needed rebuilt, so I said okay, have your friendly shop across the street rebuild them. WTF?
It's these types of things you say that make it ever clearer just how you thought of me behind my back nearly from the start. To think, I told everyone for 2 years what a good job you do and how nice you were, and that my car was in good hands. When I got my car back, I had to choke on crow at work in front of the coworkers who thought I was an idiot for sending my car off to someone's side business to their repair shop when all I did was defend you. I had to admit, my faith in your abilities was obviously quite blind. I still feel like a freakin' idiot, and it isn't because of what I wanted built. I should have seen right through you when you started telling me things behind other people's backs and then I saw you changing your story when you talked to them face to face. That just disgusts me. When I say you're a two-faced jerk, it isn't only because of your attitude about me.

I already explained all this, but details always fall on deaf ears. I wanted the chambers CC'd so I could calculate the actual compression with the new, and freshly shaven down heads. You know, the SCR is kind of important when you're building a turbo engine, especially when it's a testbed for similar but fully built engine that hasn't had a final SCR decided upon as of yet..

Even though I could still go on and on about even more of this big FAIL that I haven't even mentioned, I think it's futile to counter anymore of your past, present, and future BS... afterall, you are quite happy with all the work that you did aside from that POS coil cover. Apparently nothing I say will help you get off your high horse.

So, I found out recently, as I should have known all along, that this wastegate on my Fiero is a fake Tial. (I researched all that back in 2003 or so when I purchased my Talon's real Tial wastegate, but I honestly forgot all about it).
Dave, I would like to be reimbursed in full for this wastegate since is not what I asked for, so I can buy a real Tial. If you want, I'll even send this fake one back to you if you pay for the shipping.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-11-2011).]

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[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 10-13-2011).]

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: The last paragraph sums it up.

LOL... the delivered product sums it up.

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: I don't remember what this connector went to, but I imagine it isn't used anymore. The loom is actually single ended, it just doesn't look like it in the pic. The wire is not tied into the harness by about two feet, so it might supposed to go somewhere. I think this is where the factory dogbone bracket was. You can't tell from the pic, but the edge that looks blunt is actually razor sharp, I cut myself on it. It's a good thing I wasn't putting my hand down there with my wrist exposed! The upper edge that's nearer in the pic is also pretty sharp. The brand-new wastegate was supposed to come with its own matching fittings which are a much better design. When I saw that Dave had charged me for wastegate fittings I asked about these, and he said it didn't come with any. I said I wasn't worried about the $10, but he should ask the person he ordered the wastegate from what was up with that because I checked the Tial website and they still show them as being included (as were they with my Talon's identical WG several years back), when he didn't reply to that I forgot about it until now: (Note the lock washer): Using black wires for both hot and ground is a serious safety issue at my job, and I don't consider it any less serious here.

None of that has anything to do with the engine internals. You could have had a foam engine model in place and it wouldn't have affected the above issues.
If that's your idea of quality work, good luck keeping your BMW customer base.
Don't waste my time with a reply.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-11-2011).]

Wow...
Yep, Will pretty much summed it up.

pm sent

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BLUE BY YOU!
NYFOC

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[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 10-13-2011).]

not steeling the tread just pm'd him on his camaro ....no trouble for me also explained why i thought the 3100 is a crappy motor to put a turbo on

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BLUE BY YOU!
NYFOC

No worries Hardpact, I don't think anyone thought you were doing anything wrong.

(Edited to delete the rest of this post; Dave apologized for his recent personal attacks and deleted his radical posts so I deleted my equally radical response here [particularly the profane version, hence the next couple posts... I finally did lose my cool]).

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-16-2011).]

Please refrain from the language. It is offensive.

edited while I rethink the situation....

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 10-12-2011).]

quote Originally posted by War Hammer: Please refrain from the language. It is offensive.

I apologize, that was hypocritical of me. I will go back and tone down the language.

Thank you.

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: I apologize, that was hypocritical of me. I will go back and tone down the language.

Here's the wastegate. There is a large gap between the valve and the body; There is supposed to be a replaceable valve seat insert there to fill in that gap, and it was not put in prior to installation. In person, it is even more obvious than in the pics. I have no idea how anyone could possibly miss that when installing it. In addition to that there was a huge external exhaust leak from that connection as evidenced by the blackened gasket and flange (both sides), and bottom side of the turbine blanket. The bolts were slightly more than finger tight. Ironically, the connection to the dump pipe was fine.
Gee, I wonder why my turbo wasn't spinning.






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Here's the area with the turbine blanket removed...




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This is the condition the wastegate was in (before I removed it)...






The soot in the exhaust's dump pipe shouldn't even be there considering that this car has never seen boost...




Here it is with the actuator top removed. This is the worst of the two holes with stripped threads that holds it together with the spring compressed inside. The wastegate spring that was swapped in was the wrong one for whatever reason, it was a 3.6 psi spring rather than the 8.7 psi that I ordered. The original one was supposed to be a 14.7 psi spring, but I didn't get it back like I had asked so I don't know if it was or not...








And finally, here is a real Tial 38mm, made in the USA and one of the best you can buy (and it includes properly designed banjo fittings). This same wastegate has been on my AWD Talon for about 50k hard miles through hell and back and has not had a single issue (I took it apart once to inspect the diaphragm while troubleshooting a boost problem I was having, but it was like new)...



Dave told me he will refund me the money for that fake wastegate, and I will order one through a reputable Tial dealer.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-18-2011).]

Where can you buy the replacable valve seat insert for the tial wastegate? I just bought a wastegate with no seat... kinda pissed. But the only reason I spotted it was because I read your thread the other day! I ended up knocking the guy down a few more bucks. I looked on the Tial website, and I see it listed under spare parts... but I don't know how I can order it?

I just ordered the wastegate from www.extremepsi.com . They seem to have a good rep from the DSM folks (I've been out of the DSM loop for several years now) and are verified by many to sell real Tial products. I also ordered a few other parts for my Talon.
I put in the order at about 4:30pm yesterday and by 5pm it was at UPS... with a delivery time of today! Providing that I get what I asked for, I'd recommend them.

Here's the valve seat.
http://www.extremepsi.com/s...9940&cat=1142&page=1

Good luck!

TiAL makes some great products! Here's some of what I have sitting on the shelf.

GT35R with a TiAL .82 A/R Stainless dual V-band housing, 50 MM "Q" BOV, and the MV-S 38 MM wastegate.
Top notch quality on these pieces. Got mine through StreetRays, lowest price I could find.

Oh and about that wastegate. You'd be amazed how many people install their TiAL, and knock off wastegates with the valve seat missing. If you search for Wastegate open at idle, you'll hear a lot of stories about that. Your new wastegate probably came with a piece of red tape holding the seat in.

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 10-24-2011).]

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: My billet 3" stroke crank and Carrillo Pro-H 5.85" rods for the 3200

Could you give some more information on this crank, It doesnt look like a factory crank to me, nor does the word billet describe one. I though you had mention you would use a DIS 2.8l crank?

I was going to use a 2.8 crank until I became aware of this one. It'll require an external crank trigger but those are available.

Here's my copy+paste from my thread on 60degreev6.com

My friend Will bought a pallet of old 60*V6 racing parts from Ryan Falconer Racing Engines, they were huge on them in the 80's (and 90's?). They moved on from them, and when they moved their location, they had a bunch of leftover (mostly used) parts. Heads, intakes, the crank, rods, and a few others. I believe this crank was built specifically for or by them, and was used in an engine at some point, but it's like new. It has a 3" stroke (not 2.992", aka 76mm, like the 2.8 crank). This billet crank really is as good as it looks in the pics, even up close. The journals are perfect. It was the only one on the pallet. I have no idea if any others are out there somewhere.

There's more to update here about the car, but I really don't have the time currently. Let's just say that the wastegate can of worms has been opened... more total crap work that was done.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: TiAL makes some great products! Here's some of what I have sitting on the shelf. GT35R with a TiAL .82 A/R Stainless dual V-band housing, 50 MM "Q" BOV, and the MV-S 38 MM wastegate. Top notch quality on these pieces. Got mine through StreetRays, lowest price I could find. Oh and about that wastegate. You'd be amazed how many people install their TiAL, and knock off wastegates with the valve seat missing. If you search for Wastegate open at idle, you'll hear a lot of stories about that. Your new wastegate probably came with a piece of red tape holding the seat in.

What are you going to put these in? I ordered some pretty Turbo parts too.

3.4 DOHC 6 speed.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: Oh and about that wastegate. You'd be amazed how many people install their TiAL, and knock off wastegates with the valve seat missing. If you search for Wastegate open at idle, you'll hear a lot of stories about that. Your new wastegate probably came with a piece of red tape holding the seat in.

It just goes to show you how many amateurs there are out there.
You've definitely got some nice parts there! If you have a build thread, will you link to it here? I don't have time to browse much anymore.

I pulled the Fiero onto the street last weekend to get it out of the way for the outgoing other car, then when I went to pull it back up it wouldn't start. Probably something to do with the cold weather and a lack of an IAT sensor, in combination with a very rough base tune. I got it started today and pulled it back in. Pretty soon it'll be in the garage and I'll be tearing it down again, finally.

As for the wastegate, I don't have pics yet, but I'll post the blurb I had posted in the 60degreeV6 thread about what I found upon removing it...

quote (ALLTRBO) Now, here's the WG's can of worms that was opened when I went to replace it (I fully expect more cans of worms)... Man, long story short... The valve seat insert was not installed, causing a large amount of exhaust to bypass the turbo entirely. Remember the problem with the turbo not spinning at idle? Yeah. He blamed it on my turbo being too big. In addition, the bolts holding the WG to the junk Y-pipe were barely more than finger tight, causing a massive exhaust leak. The WG's mounting flange was (poorly) hogged out along with the mating flange that is welded onto the junk Y-pipe, and they were tapped for one of two sizes. I say one of two, because one of the bolts was an M10 with a 1.25mm thread pitch and the other was an M10 with a 1.5mm thread pitch. I think that the flange was tapped for the 1.5mm pitch because the 1.25mm bolt and the hole it came out of were stripped worse than the other. Yes, they were BOTH stripped to a degree. Who knows, he may have tapped it for a standard size bolt instead of metric to begin with. Here's how it is SUPPOSED to work. The WG (both the fake one and the real one in this case) uses M8 bolts, so the holes in the WG are unthreaded M8 holes (imagine that). The flange that is welded onto the Y-pipe should be a threaded M8 hole in this application since the flange was welded flush to the Y-pipe (meaning that you can't put a nut on the other side). M8 bolts are then installed from the WG side while sandwiching the gasket in between the flanges and then tightened to the appropriate torque. In other words, it's COMMON SENSE. This isn't rocket science! (I should know, I work with rockets and rocket scientists, hah!) Tell me good people, HOW DO YOU SCREW THAT UP? So, I can't install my WG yet, as I have to repair or replace that pathetic mess. Pics later.

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: It just goes to show you how many amateurs there are out there. You've definitely got some nice parts there! If you have a build thread, will you link to it here? I don't have time to browse much anymore.

Can do, but the build is far off. I've got the magic go fast goods, but no place to work on it. When I get back into a house with a garage things will move forward. For now, im just collecting parts to make this happen. It's an impressive shopping cart so far....

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: Can do, but the build is far off. I've got the magic go fast goods, but no place to work on it. When I get back into a house with a garage things will move forward. For now, im just collecting parts to make this happen. It's an impressive shopping cart so far....

I completely understand that.
Though if I had this to do all over again, I'd rather look at my pretty parts on a shelf and watch my car rot. I hope you can get yours together before that happens to you, heh.