Oops... I ordered the timeserts yesterday. The only part of the build that's cheap.... I'm waiting for my check from E*trade to arrive before I order anything else.
I know about gaskets, and I know from talking to wcapman I'll have a couple hundred dollars worth. This part of the budget is for short block assembly stuff that has to be together so that I can get the block machining done. I have gaskets in the long block part of the budget.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
That's one of the most informative sites for parts I've ever seen, a + for you for pointing it out. Their prices aren't bad either. Have you ordered much from them? How's their service? Since I've been burned by 1 "Yahoo vendors" and yahoo would do nothing about it, I shy away from them, but if you have good experiences with them, I'll give them a try.
Personally, though, I'd still stick with the GM head gaskets for the Northstar, but there's a lot more than just that on the site.
I did order head gaskets and bolts from them (however, knowing that v-dub ARP studs will work now...). I placed my order late in the week if I recall correctly, and received my parts late the next week. I can't recommend them unequivocally, but I had good luck with them. I still need to decide what I'm doing with this engine. It has less than 12k on it, but I really want to raise the compression and get some better rods. I'd like to be able to pull 100 HP/L out of it. Hell, if Honda can get 106 HP/L out of their production multivalves, why can't I do so with some tweaking? I was originally going to breathe on it a little bit, but 8500 RPM or so is sounding better all the time. I'm thinking right around 11.2:1 and 8k-8.5k for a redline.
Leave the compression alone, IMHO, and work on the heads and cams. I think you could get very close to that HP with CHRFab's cams, springs, and head work and not have the detonation worries. Of course, a more aggressive fuel and timing profile will be helpful as well.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by bushroot:
I did order head gaskets and bolts from them (however, knowing that v-dub ARP studs will work now...). I placed my order late in the week if I recall correctly, and received my parts late the next week. I can't recommend them unequivocally, but I had good luck with them. I still need to decide what I'm doing with this engine. It has less than 12k on it, but I really want to raise the compression and get some better rods. I'd like to be able to pull 100 HP/L out of it. Hell, if Honda can get 106 HP/L out of their production multivalves, why can't I do so with some tweaking? I was originally going to breathe on it a little bit, but 8500 RPM or so is sounding better all the time. I'm thinking right around 11.2:1 and 8k-8.5k for a redline.
Leave the compression alone, IMHO, and work on the heads and cams. I think you could get very close to that HP with CHRFab's cams, springs, and head work and not have the detonation worries. Of course, a more aggressive fuel and timing profile will be helpful as well.
John Stricker
The only thing from CHRFAB going on my engine are the engine mounts and the remote oil bypass.
Why nothing else? I think it's a little odd that you're refusing to use any of their other stuff, but will use their external oil filter adapter. I would think that piece wouldn't be hard to make.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
I'm not a machinist. I'm an electrical engineer. Although I do have some machining experience, I would rather pay someone for these parts. My time is worth something to me. The prices quoted by Alan were $55 for the oil bypass and $210 for the mounts. The bypass is a steal. I like his mounts and it would take me quite a while to replicate something like that on a manual mill. I'd rather have someone else do the cams and heads. You forget, mine is the 2000+ Northstar. Alan didn't express enough confidence in his experience with them to justify his pricing. As much as it's his right to charge as much as he likes for his services, it's my right as a potential customer to decide where I'd like to place my trust and money. This isn't intended as an insult towards Alan in any way, so I'd appreciate if it isn't construed as such.
Alan seemed to be confident that he could grind custom roller cams for me if I supplied him 8620 steel blanks. I'd be more concerned that he wasn't on the absolute cutting edge of roller cam lobe development. I'd be more inclined to get cam specs from one of the leading LS1 cam grinders and have him cut cams to those specs from blanks I supply.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
I think you already know this, but on the off chance you don't, the piece from CHRFab is NOT a bypass, it's a remote filter adapter and simply a hunk of machined aluminum (nicely machined hunk, but a hunk nonetheless). It has no bypass capabilities, at least the one in my hot little hands doesn't. I only mention it because you keep calling it a "bypass".
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by bushroot:
I'm not a machinist. I'm an electrical engineer. Although I do have some machining experience, I would rather pay someone for these parts. My time is worth something to me. The prices quoted by Alan were $55 for the oil bypass and $210 for the mounts. The bypass is a steal. I like his mounts and it would take me quite a while to replicate something like that on a manual mill. I'd rather have someone else do the cams and heads. You forget, mine is the 2000+ Northstar. Alan didn't express enough confidence in his experience with them to justify his pricing. As much as it's his right to charge as much as he likes for his services, it's my right as a potential customer to decide where I'd like to place my trust and money. This isn't intended as an insult towards Alan in any way, so I'd appreciate if it isn't construed as such.
Yes, that should definitely be noted. The N* flows 12 gpm of oil at redline, and without a bypass you'll need a LOT of filter, or an external bypass, to not restrict the oil flow. If you're going to use the Caddy filter, fine, but if you use a Chevy filter, remember that they do NOT have bypasses in them and you'll need TWO Chevy truck filters in parallel to not restrict the flow.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
I think you already know this, but on the off chance you don't, the piece from CHRFab is NOT a bypass, it's a remote filter adapter and simply a hunk of machined aluminum (nicely machined hunk, but a hunk nonetheless). It has no bypass capabilities, at least the one in my hot little hands doesn't. I only mention it because you keep calling it a "bypass".
Alan seemed to be confident that he could grind custom roller cams for me if I supplied him 8620 steel blanks. I'd be more concerned that he wasn't on the absolute cutting edge of roller cam lobe development. I'd be more inclined to get cam specs from one of the leading LS1 cam grinders and have him cut cams to those specs from blanks I supply.
If you manage to get some MY2000+ cam blanks, or decide to make some...LET ME KNOW! I contacted GM Performance, they couldn't (or wouldn't) get me a set of billets. For now, I'm going regrind. I was thinking I'd keep the stock lift (from what I'm told, you can cut the bottom of the lobe to increase lift). From what Terry (the guy doing my trans) has worked out for me, I'll want something like 288/294 for duration. We'll see if that's possible. That should get me to 8500 RPM without it falling on its face. As for the valve springs, he's not so sure I need 100lb. springs, so the jury is still out on that one. Did you know that F1 cars run about 60lb. valve springs and are capable of running 17,000 or so RPM? Also, something of interest, I did both piston and crank speed calculations. The Northstar should live fine around 8 grand. I'm sure this is something Alan had already figured out. I'm curious why they built such a safety margin into the engine.
Their valves are much, MUCH lighter, for one thing. Mostly titanium. Makes a lot of difference.
I figured you already knew about the adapter not being a bypass, but you know how it is, unless you say something, you never know.
The filter adapters you linked to have served me well in the past, I used to use the same ones on Big Block Chevy's in race boats. They don't have a bypass in them either. That's fine, just make sure you change them often and don't believe the Northstar advertising that you can go 10K miles before an oil change. The Northstar has a very high volume oil system and a lot of oil is going to be moving through them, so use good filters.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by bushroot:
If you manage to get some MY2000+ cam blanks, or decide to make some...LET ME KNOW! I contacted GM Performance, they couldn't (or wouldn't) get me a set of billets. For now, I'm going regrind. I was thinking I'd keep the stock lift (from what I'm told, you can cut the bottom of the lobe to increase lift). From what Terry (the guy doing my trans) has worked out for me, I'll want something like 288/294 for duration. We'll see if that's possible. That should get me to 8500 RPM without it falling on its face. As for the valve springs, he's not so sure I need 100lb. springs, so the jury is still out on that one. Did you know that F1 cars run about 60lb. valve springs and are capable of running 17,000 or so RPM? Also, something of interest, I did both piston and crank speed calculations. The Northstar should live fine around 8 grand. I'm sure this is something Alan had already figured out. I'm curious why they built such a safety margin into the engine.
F1 cars have the absolute minimum valvetrain mass, as jstricker says. Also, I'm sure that VERY, VERY few people have ANY real knowledge of F1 valvespring rates. I would be pretty surprised if "the guy doing your trans" is one of those people, unless he has a lot of other qualifications. I thought they closed the valves pneumatically anyway. If they do use springs, F1 springs are going to be tapered and behived and wound with oval wire and all the other tricks to get max revs from minimum spring rate.
AJ's website claims that his springs work with stock retainers, which means they are most likely not tapered. Northstars also have hydraulic lash adjusters that reciprocate with the valve. They add a bit of mass and F1 engines CERTAINLY will not have them.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
What, do I have to get a copy of his resume for you guys? If you’re interested in having work done by him, E-mail me. I’ll get you the contact info. I’m sure he’d be more than happy to fill you in on his credentials. This guy worked on the Cosworth/Ford F1 project in the late 70's/early 80's, he knows Jack Roush and John Quaife by first name. Why don't you ask him if he's qualified?
[This message has been edited by bushroot (edited 02-08-2004).]
Oh yeah, the guy who's installing the external lube and such... Ok... I forgot who the "guy doing your trans" was...
Needless to say, F1 has changed a LOT since the early '80's. F1 engines were in the 10-12 thousand RPM range back then. Now adays they're using pneumatic pressure to close the valves.
Oh yeah, the guy who's installing the external lube and such... Ok... I forgot who the "guy doing your trans" was...
Needless to say, F1 has changed a LOT since the early '80's. F1 engines were in the 10-12 thousand RPM range back then. Now adays they're using pneumatic pressure to close the valves.
And who developed the air bag system for valves?...Cosworth developed it. Still, not everyone is using the system. From what Terry says, it was originally used because it doesn't have the resonant frequency problems associated with traditional valve springs.
[This message has been edited by bushroot (edited 02-08-2004).]
I ordered a set of Eagle conrods from the ebay user "dynoflo1" today. They were $469 with free shipping. The pistons will be shipped off for Swain's TBC on the tops and PC-9 on the skirts on Monday. I was unfortunately unable to talk to either Ed or Kevin at Total Seal today, but I should be able to do that on Monday as well. I picked up $257 worth of gaskets from my local GM dealer. The spak plug O-rings came in packs of 5 (???). Still need: bearings, valvesprings, new piston pin locks, crank case sealant...
I will be having the assembly balanced of course... in the interests of expediency I bought a N* crank for $50 on ebay, and will be buying a block from Wcapman. I'll have the short block almost fully assembled when I go back to VA to work on the car.
I also spoke with Bud Adelman of Bud's Outback in AZ ( www.gr8grip.com ) about his new LSD which is similar to a Phantom Grip, only about 80% more effective. I'll have more on that when I get it on the road.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck is for those who lack the courage to define their own fate
I don't remember what those O rings cost, but they weren't much when I ordered them from gmpartsdirect. Because of the price, I ordered 8. Guess how many I have now?? If you'd have said something (or I'd have thought to ask) I'd have thrown you 8 in with the timesert set. I've also got an extra set of new timing chain guides I'd let you have for cheap (the two, long nylon ones, they come with the bolts.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Yay, progress!
I ordered a set of Eagle conrods from the ebay user "dynoflo1" today. They were $469 with free shipping. The pistons will be shipped off for Swain's TBC on the tops and PC-9 on the skirts on Monday. I was unfortunately unable to talk to either Ed or Kevin at Total Seal today, but I should be able to do that on Monday as well. I picked up $257 worth of gaskets from my local GM dealer. The spak plug O-rings came in packs of 5 (???). Still need: bearings, valvesprings, new piston pin locks, crank case sealant...
I will be having the assembly balanced of course... in the interests of expediency I bought a N* crank for $50 on ebay, and will be buying a block from Wcapman. I'll have the short block almost fully assembled when I go back to VA to work on the car.
I also spoke with Bud Adelman of Bud's Outback in AZ ( www.gr8grip.com ) about his new LSD which is similar to a Phantom Grip, only about 80% more effective. I'll have more on that when I get it on the road.
It has been explained to me that F1 cars use have actual valve springs. They use the air to prevent float at high RPMS.
quote
Originally posted by Will:
F1 cars have the absolute minimum valvetrain mass, as jstricker says. Also, I'm sure that VERY, VERY few people have ANY real knowledge of F1 valvespring rates. I would be pretty surprised if "the guy doing your trans" is one of those people, unless he has a lot of other qualifications. I thought they closed the valves pneumatically anyway. If they do use springs, F1 springs are going to be tapered and behived and wound with oval wire and all the other tricks to get max revs from minimum spring rate.
AJ's website claims that his springs work with stock retainers, which means they are most likely not tapered. Northstars also have hydraulic lash adjusters that reciprocate with the valve. They add a bit of mass and F1 engines CERTAINLY will not have them.
I don't remember what those O rings cost, but they weren't much when I ordered them from gmpartsdirect. Because of the price, I ordered 8. Guess how many I have now?? If you'd have said something (or I'd have thought to ask) I'd have thrown you 8 in with the timesert set. I've also got an extra set of new timing chain guides I'd let you have for cheap (the two, long nylon ones, they come with the bolts.
John Stricker
I was going to use the chain guides that are in the engine currently, but if I can get new ones from you, why not? I just thought it odd that two packs of N* spark plug o-rings will o-ring a V-10.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
Yes, the logic of an accountant was in play here, no doubt. I'll go back and see what they cost, but they weren't outrageous, and I'll make you a heck of deal on the guides if you want them. I'll send you an email tomorrow from the shop.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I was going to use the chain guides that are in the engine currently, but if I can get new ones from you, why not? I just thought it odd that two packs of N* spark plug o-rings will o-ring a V-10.
Ordered Total Seal rings today. Modified Max-Seal set with gapless top ring and Napier 2nd ring, along with assembly lube and whatever their cylinder molykote stuff is.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
Will, what is the advantage with the total seal kit? My other question is would be whether you goin to have the cranks, rods and pistons spun balanced like they come from the factory?
Total Seal gapless rings should seal better than a normal ring with conventional gap. I also had them put together a Napier scraper profile 2nd ring for oil control. If I were putting together a stock rotating assembly I might or might not have it balanced, but since I'm usign Eagle rods which do not weigh the same as the stock rods, I MUST have the assembly balanced. More on that when I get it done.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
Will you said that the H lash adj's reciprocate with the valve train, but on my S* the hydraulic lash adjusters are set in the head casting and is just a pivit point. So I wonder if this is a change on the Y2K N* also or a S* only valve train? Dose anyone have pics of the Y2K N* vale train? With less valve train mass the RPM's could go higher without valve floting, if GM used the same rate spring ratios on the S* as they used on the pre Y2K N*.
The '99 and older N*'s use a direct acting hydraulic bucket tappet. The Y2K and newer engines use rocker arms with rollers and the hydraulic lash adjusters in the cylinder head itself. Overall it should be a reduction in valvetrain mass and friction.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
I didn't want to add this post here but I could find the clutch thread we were on before.
I talked with David Norton at Spec and he got the flexplate, thanks again for shipping that for us! And he said he can do it for under $400 and he will keep it on file so we "anyone"can go back there. He said he still wouldn't charge me a set up fee and it isn't like any other flywheel that he has done before. He said the back of the crank is alot larger than most. If anyone has any questions about this feel free to e-mail me.
------------------ Bobby from NW Indiana 86 Fiero GT, Looking to ad a 93 Northstar soon thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
I ordered some of their cylinder coating as well. I'm curious to see what it's like but according to them, it cuts ring break in time down by a bunch. I've been using Royal Purple Synthetic Assembly Lube the last few engines I've built and I've been VERY happy with it. It's also been getting good reviews in some of the machine shop magazines I get. It seems to really stay on the bearings well so that's what I'm using in my Northstar.
I get it from a local dealer but it's also available from Jegs if you can't find it locally. Good stuff.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Ordered Total Seal rings today. Modified Max-Seal set with gapless top ring and Napier 2nd ring, along with assembly lube and whatever their cylinder molykote stuff is.
The Total Seal Gapless rings are just what their name says they are. The compression rings are two piece and have no real gap like a conventional ringset has. Total Seal's Website is pretty informative in How They Work if you want to check it out.
If you're sticking with all stock major reciprocating components (Pistons, Rods, Crank, Flywheel, Dampner) then the factory balance should be fine for you. If you change any of them then you probably should take it to a shop that does balance work like Will is doing since he's using the Eagle rods.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 86 FIERO GT:
Will, what is the advantage with the total seal kit? My other question is would be whether you goin to have the cranks, rods and pistons spun balanced like they come from the factory?
I got my set of TotalSeal rings today. The cylinder coat is a dry powder in a container about the size of the cam assembly lube that Alan sends with his cams. There is just a tiny bit of powder in there and quite frankly, I don't see how it's going to be enough to do all eight cylinders but it says "a tiny bit goes a long way" so I'm going to reserve judgment until I actually try to use some of it. The piston assembly lube is in about an 8 oz bottle that you use to lube the skirts and rings with just a few drops so it looks like there's enough of it to do 3 or 4 engines if used by directions. We'll find out. You can expect your rings in a day or two if they ship to you like they did me.
Did you get the Timesert set yet?
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Ordered Total Seal rings today. Modified Max-Seal set with gapless top ring and Napier 2nd ring, along with assembly lube and whatever their cylinder molykote stuff is.
