0.0055 from shank stretch 0.0023 from rod bearing clearance 0.001 from piston pin to rod clearance 0.001 from piston pin to piston clearance
0.0098
Because the bores are larger than the journals, there's room for the bores to oblong by (bearing clearance)*Pi/2... or 0.0036 if using 0.0023 bearing clearance as recommended by Alan Johnson. The corresponding number for the small end of the rod is 0.0015
That gets to 0.0149
Things that still require looking at: Piston stretch Crank stretch (main bearing clearance?) Rod bolt stretch beyond what happens during installation Stretch of the "big end" beyond simple oblonging of the bore
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-10-2006).]
Ok... I took the block back from Mauzy's shop. He does great work, but it's a VERY busy time of year for him and he wouldn't be able to get to the block for a month or more. He also doesn't have any experience with engines with the N* style bottom end. After installing time serts in the main bolt holes, I took the block to Justice Racing Engines in Frederick, MD. This shop has done a LOT of very high level import drag racing work, including the Enfantis' Supra engines. In addition, he has the tooling and experience to deal with engines that have the lower crank case style bottom end. Besides the Northstar, this includes Honda F & K series and Toyota 1ZZ and 2ZZ engines, among others. Justice is also a CP Pistons distributor, which Mauzy currently is not.
I didn't get the whole kit to install the main bolt time serts. I bought the installation mandrel ($50 for a glorified bolt!!!) from Kent-Moore and did the rest on a mill. A friend and I set up the block on a large 90 degree plate and supported the far end with a machinist's jack. We drilled the holes out with a 13/32 drill to full depth, about 1.230 (the depth to which GM drilled them originally). Then we counterbored with 1/2" end mill to a depth of 0.250-0.255. This depth is important as the inserts MUST be installed to sufficient depth both for strength and not to restrict oil flow to the main bearings. The final mill operation was tapping 10x1.5-STI to prep the holes. I ran the inserts in by hand along with a generous helping of Loctite maximum strength retaining compound.
Once Justice decks the block and provides me with a deck height, I'll finish my quench math and tell CP what compression height I want on the pistons and then that particular ball will be rolling.
You need to create a short, concise thread of the things you learned, the things needed, etc... 8 pages is a bit much to go through to find out that you need to use xxx with yyy or explosions happen.
CP pistons are on the way. Total Seal Diamond Finish rings will be coming with. The pistons will include pins, which will be 2.25" long vice the stock 2.48" long. I still would have liked to have ceramic aluminum pins, but Hank the Crank was having "problems" last I checked.
I built a spreadsheet to look at quench numbers, but I kept on getting unexpectedly small numbers, so I decided that I didn't have enough info to calculate that directly.
However, I have been told that a 350 with 4340 rods and comparable quality pistons can run as little as 0.032 quench to 7200 RPM.
With a 3.48" stroke and 5.700" rods, the piston acceleration at TDC at 7200 RPM is...
R = 5.700" T = 1.740" S = 120 RPS
a(t) = 754t da(t)/dt = 754 (da(t)/dt)2 = 568,489
A(t)|t=0 = -1,291,128 in/sec2 = 3,362 g's.
With 6.000" rods, this would be 3,322 g's (~1% difference).
At 7200 RPM, the Northstar pistons experience 3,130 g's.
So if the pistons weighed the same, The Northstar should experience the same rod stretch at 7640 as the 350 does at 7200.
HOWEVER, the pistons do not weigh the same. CP has given me estimates of the Northstar piston weights. I need to call them back and get a number for a comparable 350 piston and do a bit more arithmetic.
However, in the mean time I've decided to go for 0.035 quench. I'm going to set the pistons up at 0.005 in the hole and use an 0.030 MLS gasket (stockers are around 0.065 compressed(!)). If I decide I can get away with it, I may drop to a 0.027 gasket.
The CP pistons will be fit at 0.003 bore clearance, while the Ross pistons required 0.0045 bore clearance. That should give a clue about the difference in engineering between those to brands.
Concision is for Cliff Notes.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-30-2006).]
nitpicker ..why not shoot for at least 8,500 rpms? ..I know, its a N* and it has its limitations ..Will, not long ago I seen several IRL "N*" engines on ebay that went for about 8 grand ..sure its some cash but still ..if you can come up with a combo that isn't going to cost an arm, leg, and several 88 GT Ttops to finance please do share the specs ..I've always thought the N* was the ultimate Fiero swap short of a 355 Ferrari engine
When I get the piston weights from CP (basically, when I get around to calling), I'll have better estimates. Suffice it to say that a 3.670" bore piston will be lighter than a 4.000" bore piston and I'll gain RPM capacity over a 350 that way.
I don't know the stock piston/deck dimension. I know the LS1's are a little bit OUT of the hole from the factory. Not sure if the stock N*'s are zero deck or out of the hole.
Cline was saying that a shorter quench would lead to faster carbon buildup and make it more prone to carbon rap. That doesn't make much sense to me, because it seems like with less squish, it would create more airforce on the carbon to shoot it out into the center of the cylinder.... But at any rate, I guess you'll have to do your italian tuneups regularly...
And I won't accept less than 10krpm from you. The stock parts can go to 8500 for a dyno run or two...
[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 07-30-2006).]
I'll do a couple of 3-2 upshifts to demonstrate 10,000 RPM capability from the assembly.
Write me a 7730 program with the limiter at 10.5...
After discussion with CP, a 350 piston of comparable design to mine would weigh about 18% more. The difference in bore cross section is 19%, further indication of how well the CP pistons are optimised.
Ok, so with the same weight pistons, a Northstar can spin to 7600 with the same quench as a 350 has at 7200. The fact that the pistons weigh 18% less means that there will be 18% less stress on the rod from piston acceleration. This won't mean an 18% reduction in rod stress... because there are things like the pin and the weight of the small end of the rod to consider... but I'll fudge it and say that there is a 10% reduction in rod stress from 18% reduction in piston weight.
Rod stress goes up as the square of RPM, so the RPM increase would be the square root of 1.10, or about 1.05. This multiplied by the previously mentioned 7640 gives just a touch over 8,000.
So I ought to be safe with 0.032 quench at 8,000 RPM. 0.035 quench should be good for 8300-8400.
Pistons are at Calico being coated. I got a big chunk of the bill for pistons, rings & coatings... ouch. Doing it right hurts.
I haven't been keeping track of machine work here... the align hone was completed and the block was decked just a teensy bit to straighten it out. The deck height came to 8.840". The stroke is 3.307 and the throw is 1.6535. The conrod is 5.943. 8.840 - (1.6535 + 8.840) = 1.243
I'm setting the piston up 0.005 in the hole, so the compression height I ordered from CP was 1.238. I plan on using 0.030 Cometic MLS gaskets, but I need to verify the piston/deck relationship before I order those. A Cometic rep told me it would take three days to make the gaskets (they already have a pattern on file) before they could be shipped.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-01-2006).]
CP pistons are on the way. Total Seal Diamond Finish rings will be coming with. The pistons will include pins, which will be 2.25" long vice the stock 2.48" long. I still would have liked to have ceramic aluminum pins, but Hank the Crank was having "problems" last I checked.
I built a spreadsheet to look at quench numbers, but I kept on getting unexpectedly small numbers, so I decided that I didn't have enough info to calculate that directly.
However, I have been told that a 350 with 4340 rods and comparable quality pistons can run as little as 0.032 quench to 7200 RPM.
With a 3.48" stroke and 5.700" rods, the piston acceleration at TDC at 7200 RPM is...
R = 5.700" T = 1.740" S = 120 RPS
a(t) = 754t da(t)/dt = 754 (da(t)/dt)2 = 568,489
A(t)|t=0 = -1,291,128 in/sec2 = 3,362 g's.
With 6.000" rods, this would be 3,322 g's (~1% difference).
At 7200 RPM, the Northstar pistons experience 3,130 g's.
So if the pistons weighed the same, The Northstar should experience the same rod stretch at 7640 as the 350 does at 7200.
HOWEVER, the pistons do not weigh the same. CP has given me estimates of the Northstar piston weights. I need to call them back and get a number for a comparable 350 piston and do a bit more arithmetic.
However, in the mean time I've decided to go for 0.035 quench. I'm going to set the pistons up at 0.005 in the hole and use an 0.030 MLS gasket (stockers are around 0.065 compressed(!)). If I decide I can get away with it, I may drop to a 0.027 gasket.
The CP pistons will be fit at 0.003 bore clearance, while the Ross pistons required 0.0045 bore clearance. That should give a clue about the difference in engineering between those to brands.
Concision is for Cliff Notes.
So I will have to have the block machine to .0095? .005 over for the pistons plus .0045 for the clearance= .0095 right?
Pistons are done & at machine shop. Rings are done & at machine shop. Block machine work is finished.
I'm having some issues with getting the crank balanced the way I want it done. I left my best crank (the one that was in the engine I had been running) with the shop that did the block work. They don't have crank machinery on site, so they sent it off to a crank specialist with my instructions, which were to turn material from the outside radius of the counterweight until the balance was close and then balance by conventional methods (drilling to remove weight). The crank shop apparently wasn't as experienced as was implied, because they cut OVER .500 from the radius of the counterweights. There wasn't enough left of the weights to put enough Mallory metal in them to bring them back up to weight. Scratch one otherwise perfrect Northstar crank. Grrr....
I had another crank that I thought hadn't been messed with, but it needed a journal job. Ok, I handed that one over and got the undersized bearings ($180 for the rods and $70 for the mains) and had the journal job done. Once that was done, the shop put the crank on the balancer (check first!) and found it to be out by 125 g/end. Based on the difference in bobweights, I had calc'd that it should be out 270 g/end. @#%@%@#@#$.... So now I have to figure out WHY this crank is lighter than I think it ought to be and pull a crank out of one of my parts engines to compare the factory balance holes to the ones in that crank. SIGH....
Doh, that sucks. I have found that there are fewer and fewer shops that really know how to performance balance a crank or rotating assembly. I take it you want to do first and second harmonics? How many N* do you have laying around?
-Chuck '87 Fiero spread across three states and six counties.
Doh, that sucks. I have found that there are fewer and fewer shops that really know how to performance balance a crank or rotating assembly. I take it you want to do first and second harmonics? How many N* do you have laying around?
-Chuck '87 Fiero spread across three states and six counties.
Since this is a street engine, I was going for a neutral balance. If it were a race engine, I might consider overbalancing, but it isn't. I have enough rebuildable cores lying around that I'm not going to run out of cranks soon, but not getting it done the way I really want it done is annoying.
quote
Originally posted by carolinajoe: Hey Will
Where you been, trying to get ahold of you.
Did you try email? I've done enough with ebay cranks. The last time I tried that, the crank showed up in a great big cardboard box, packed in styrofoam peanuts....
I pulled apart two parts engines that I had in the shed. One was a '00-'03 engine and the other was a '96-'99 engine. Both had the same pattern of holes in the counterweights as the crank I sent off to be worked on. I'm waiting to hear back about the depths of those holes, but in all probability that crank has not been worked on. Hmm... So if that crank has NOT been worked on and is half as out of balance as I expected it to be, then my math must be wrong.
Good news: probably don't have to send another crank off.
Bad news: not sure where I went wrong and don't want to go forward until I know.
Good news: the crank balancing guy gave me the number for an engineer with a balancer manufacturing outift with whom I could discuss the math of balancing.
Will I have 3 spare cranks in good shape. One may have slight surface rust. I must have 4 sets of rods. One set is an early set. The stock rods are OK to 13K "I question that". I have 1 block left after I installed the other in my Fiero. I have 1 set of 00-02 heads with Y cams. I just let a 04 engine go that had a bent rod and hole in the block. It had ingested water. It had a good set of 9 heads. The caddy dealer I work at has 4 separate shops the first has all windows the second is my shop I work with two other guys the third is half mechanical and the other half body the fourth is all body shop. The reason I mention this is I have 4 stalls and the other 2 guys share 4 stalls. I have only been there 3 years the other 2 have been around 14 and 18 years. I have been having issues with my Fiero parts in the shop and finally think it is really about all the free parts I get. I passed on the last engine parts. I come across a lot of parts let me know if I can help. When I started they went though and cleaned out the old engine sitting around. I would guess about 10 engines got scrapped
I'm interested in a set of '04+ FWD heads. That's when they increased exhaust valve size and revised the exhaust port. I'd like to see how the '04 exhaust port compares to the intake. The int/exh ratio on the '00-'03 heads is attrocious for an all motor performance build. It's too bad because the '00+ intake ports flow excellently.
Beyond that, I have all the major parts I could ever use. I've sworn off production rods. Eagles are soo cheap and soooo much lighter that there's no point in using the stockers. Alan Johnson told me that the stock rod bolts wouldn't take much more than 7K reliably and the stock rods should be replaced to spin the engine to 8K reliably.
The '00 engine I took down tossed a rod with ~50 miles on the clock and the '96-'99 was a dyno mule that had holes poked in the cam covers and lower crank case so it couldn't be sold as a new engine.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-31-2006).]
The two guys had complained about are janitor about a month ago. Two weeks ago they sent the motor to our part time/retired parts guy. That means he was in the 19th and then I would think he took home the engine on the 22nd. He scraps the aluminum for doughnut money. The prick that had the engine in his stall said I could not touch it, because he was selling the parts on E-Bay. Six months later and no motivation on his part the engine was given to Jake. I have helped out Jake and his son a lot. I will see if they have the heads yet. They will give them to me if they have them. I will let you know.
[This message has been edited by AJxtcman (edited 01-12-2007).]
Hello Will I looked into moving the Intake cams. The company that did the head work was BPE racing heads. They had refered the customer to CHRF. They say that they set cam centerline up different.
For the normally aspirated engines, we have 5 grinds from mild to wild. These cams will still make enough vacuum to operate your power brakes, etc. We also set up the intake centerline a little differently to obtain more torque or more power.
272 deg 280 deg 288 deg 300 deg 310 deg Stock for a VIN 9 was 122 +18 "1 tooth" = 130 DEG. Something to look at
Hello Will I looked into moving the Intake cams. The company that did the head work was BPE racing heads. They had refered the customer to CHRF. They say that they set cam centerline up different.
For the normally aspirated engines, we have 5 grinds from mild to wild. These cams will still make enough vacuum to operate your power brakes, etc. We also set up the intake centerline a little differently to obtain more torque or more power.
272 deg 280 deg 288 deg 300 deg 310 deg Stock for a VIN 9 was 122 +18 "1 tooth" = 130 DEG. Something to look at
Hello Will The company that did the head work was BPE racing heads. They had refered the customer to CHRF. They say that they set cam centerline up different.
Did the head work for what? LMP cars?
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-12-2007).]
Will Member Posts: 7062 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Total ratings: 139 Rate this member
12-13-2006 08:46 AM
How do you reset cam timing?
AJxtcman Member Posts: 84 From: Wauwatosa, WI usa Registered: Nov 2006
12-13-2006 02:11 PM
99 Y engine has intake cam timing at 8 deg BTDC and a centerline of 117 deg ATDC 99 9 engine has intake cam timing at 13 deg BTDC and a center line of 126.5 deg ATDC 2000 Y engine has intake cam timing at 5.6 deg BTDC and a center line of 113 deg ATDC 2000 9 engine has intake cam timing at 0 deg BTDC and a center line of 122 deg ATDC
[This message has been edited by AJxtcman (edited 01-12-2007).]
Hello Will I looked into moving the Intake cams. The company that did the head work was BPE racing heads. They had refered the customer to CHRF. They say that they set cam centerline up different.
For the normally aspirated engines, we have 5 grinds from mild to wild. These cams will still make enough vacuum to operate your power brakes, etc. We also set up the intake centerline a little differently to obtain more torque or more power.
272 deg 280 deg 288 deg 300 deg 310 deg Stock for a VIN 9 was 122 +18 "1 tooth" = 130 DEG. Something to look at
Those are durations, not centerlines. Stock for a VIN 9 is 266/24x Intake/exhaust. You can't change duration by moving the cams.
Originally posted by Will: I'm interested in a set of '04+ FWD heads. That's when they increased exhaust valve size and revised the exhaust port. I'd like to see how the '04 exhaust port compares to the intake. The int/exh ratio on the '00-'03 heads is attrocious for an all motor performance build. It's too bad because the '00+ intake ports flow excellently.
Beyond that, I have all the major parts I could ever use. I've sworn off production rods. Eagles are soo cheap and soooo much lighter that there's no point in using the stockers. Alan Johnson told me that the stock rod bolts wouldn't take much more than 7K reliably and the stock rods should be replaced to spin the engine to 8K reliably.
The '00 engine I took down tossed a rod with ~50 miles on the clock and the '96-'99 was a dyno mule that had holes poked in the cam covers and lower crank case so it couldn't be sold as a new engine.
Want me to keep an eye out for those heads? I scour ebay pretty regularly...
Strange, I too had a 2000 with a rod sticking out of the block... The rods (or rod bolts, not sure which) appear to be a secondary weak link, after the head gasket/head bolt holes
This is what the lifters look like: This one has what appears to be a circumferencial crack about 1/8" down from the top of the lifter. Allen Cline assured me that this is also normal. It is the part line between the wear surface of the lifter and the lifter body. The wear surface is friction welded to the body.
This is the bottom of the lifter: You can see the hole which allows oil inside the lifter. The factory valve lift is greater than the width of the galeries which supply oil to the lifters, so they don't need continuous oil pressure in order to function. Allen Cline said that when they were introduced, they were state of the art.
Oops... I haven't taken a picture of the tool yet... I'll get to that tomorrow.
I almost made a bad mistake... I timed the right bank, then bottoned it up. I replaced the seals and springs on the left bank, then timed it and buttoned it up. I opened the right bank back up to double check something and noticed that the timing marks were way off... Because the N* has an intermediate timing drive with strange ratios, there are funky things that go on with timing. The crank to intermediate shaft ratio is 7:5 (7 turns of crank to 5 turns of intermediate sprocket). So when you turn the engine a bit (as we did to bring each cylinder in turn to TDC), you'll have to continue to turn it until you've turned it a total of seven times in order to get the timing marks on crank and I-sprocket to line back up. I did this in between timing the right bank and timing the left bank. Anyone know what this means? Turning the crank 7 times turns the cams 3.5 times... so the right bank and left bank would have been 180 degrees out from each other. Good thing I caught that...
I know this is like over 2 years old, but the Quad 4 lifters look EXACTLY like these, I dont have any good pics, if I remember I will try to get some tomorrow, but here are what I have:
------------------ 84 Fiero Sport Coupe #1192 :: 86 Fiero Base Coupe Quad 4 HO :: 1995 Dodge Ram 1500 2WD Club Cab Long Box 5.2L Auto
Hello Will I Have been at the Caddy dealer for the last 3 years. I had always though that caddy's were a little junkie. The door panels pulled, loose the motors leaked oil, trans leaked, Intake manifolds leaked, The oil filter was on the top, they had a throttle body and when they changed to MPI they still used the same style center mount T-body. Over the past 3 years I have learned that is all in the past. It ended in the early 90's.
From 96 to 99 common engine issues are the following. The lower half leaks oil at the case halves and oil pan -- fix-- Do Not Use Gaskets--- New TriBond Sealer. Rear main seal leaks. New seal has Metal sleeve that is pressed on to the crank with a special tool. The ring are a low tension ring that allows the oil to get on to the top of the piston and this causes carbon build up--- Perfect Circle designed a second ring to help control this issue. The Head bolts pull the treads out of the block-- time serts only work some times in these blocks --- the threads need to be cleaned and inspected completely-- inspect for pitting after cleaning out the thread locker--- if any pitting is found in the thread area it usually means that the block will not hold a time sert--- when drilling out the block if the material is grey and or powdery the factory time sert will not hold-- Either the thread locker has broke down the blocks or the aluminum quality was not that good---- old thread locker will bind up the threads and break then out--- I would say 50% of the blocks can not use TIMESERT time serts. GM has short blocks available for this problem or use NS300L inserts The cams go flat--- if any circle markings are found on the lifters the cam is bad-- the circles range from 1/16 inch to about 9/16 is typical-- another sign of the cam wear is in the cam/valve covers-- it looks like casting sand and is built up on the lower sides-- when the valve covers were new the were smooth on the inside-- you can find this in the chain area of the cam cover also-- it does not wash off, but it will flake off sometimes. The only way to fix the last two issues "block and heads" is to go with a 2000+ setup
2000+ Oil leak like previous years-- FWD RTV Sealant Procedure with Current Oil Distribution Plate TSB #03-06-01-027 - (10/06/2003) rear main seal update Engine Oil Leak at Crankshaft Rear Main Oil Seal (Install Revised Crankshaft Rear Main Oil Seal Using Revised Rear Main Seal Installer) #05-06-01-019D - (05/12/2006) The ring issues-- the new rings work better, but the also redesigned the pistons ---Engine Cold/Knock/Tick Noise (Replace Pistons) #03-06-01-025 - (09/02/2003 misc engine info----Information on Northstar Engine Mechanical Repairs #04-06-01-032 - (10/27/2004)
I have replaced the pistons in well over 100 engines for 2000+ and have only install 3 time serts --- I have never seen any pitting in the threads and when I drilled out the aluminum it was bright and shiny. I have never seen a bottom end fail with the exception of ingesting water "flood" or from this TSB Higher Than Expected Oil Consumption (Clean Piston Rings) #02-06-01-009C and we had a maintenance package that we performed a carbon treatment. We stopped doing it because the younger guys bent rods.
I was thinking about the 2000+ engines and I can not remember one haed gasket that has blown. This may be because the head bolts don't pull out of the block.
May have. GM's current roller follower overhead cam valvegear is common among the Northstar, Vortec 4200, Ecotec and High Feature V6. It's not a stretch to think that the previous generation of flat tappet OHC valvegear was common across several engines. I think the 3.4 TDC/DOHC started out at 35mm and went to 33mm later.
The cams go flat--- if any circle markings are found on the lifters the cam is bad-- the circles range from 1/16 inch to about 9/16 is typical-- another sign of the cam wear is in the cam/valve covers-- it looks like casting sand and is built up on the lower sides-- when the valve covers were new the were smooth on the inside-- you can find this in the chain area of the cam cover also-- it does not wash off, but it will flake off sometimes.
Will I hope your project is going along. I have some new lifter pictures of the common failure. 90% of the time it is the EXH side.
Will I hope your project is going along. I have some new lifter pictures of the common failure. 90% of the time it is the EXH side.
I wonder if that's what happens when you use Mobil 1.....
They were obviously designed to rotate to create even wear across the lobe and lifter surface, but there shouldn't even BE any wear if the oil is doing it's job. Obviously something with the ILSAC starburst like Mobil 1 might not provide sufficient ZDDP to prevent excessive wear. People using CHRF's springs should choose oil carefully.
..why not shoot for at least 8,500 rpms? ..I know, its a N* and it has its limitations ..Will, not long ago I seen several IRL "N*" engines on ebay that went for about 8 grand ..sure its some cash but still ..if you can come up with a combo that isn't going to cost an arm, leg, and several 88 GT Ttops to finance please do share the specs ..I've always thought the N* was the ultimate Fiero swap short of a 355 Ferrari engine
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