Im really interested to hear how those 10/275 (i think thats what they are) springs ride. I got some unknown lbs springs with my coil over kit on there now. They are "ok" with the sbc, but with the LS4 going in soon I want to change them when I do the swap.....
This going to be the year of the LS4 swap! You, Kemp, and what sounds like 100 more people are swapping in LS4's this year....
The new water pump showed up this evening and it was $45 to have the bearings replaced in the alternator and everything else inspected/replaced if necessary. So now everything is back together and I will pick up some more antifreeze on Thursday. I should be able to continue driving the car Friday night and through the weekend.
The new water pump showed up this evening and it was $45 to have the bearings replaced in the alternator and everything else inspected/replaced if necessary. So now everything is back together and I will pick up some more antifreeze on Thursday. I should be able to continue driving the car Friday night and through the weekend.
If you need another alternator let me know, I still have the one off my LS4 that Im not using....
The accessory drive squeal has been quite annoying. Alternator has new bearings, new water pump, all 3 idler pulleys are new as is the belt. The accessory drive has fewer idlers, better balancer wrap and a shorter belt... yet is squeals. I applied some belt dressing and the ribbed side of the belt and everything got quiet for a while. For some reason the new belt is slipping on the balancer. So tonight I picked up a new (different brand) belt to try on Sunday.
With the help of the belt dressing, the car was mostly quiet while it idled for 2hrs to verify coolant system and checked for leaks. Passed with flying colors. I used the time the car was idling to install the rest of the body panels. Once the panels were on and the idle test complete, I was able to wash it for the first time in who knows how long.
The E67 has no adjustment to the electric fan parameters. The fan kicks on at about 215 on the scanner and shuts off at 205. During the swap, purposely installed the coolant temp sensor by cylinder #8 (vs. the stock location at Cyl 1) as it is the hottest part of the engine and the ECM needs to see that temp to pull timing or make other adjustments to protect the engine under extreme conditions. It only takes about 1-2 minutes for the fan running to drop the temp to the point of shutting off the fan with the new Champion radiator. The 195 degree thermostat has a couple of 3/32" holes, so at interstate speed the engine should run in the 180-185 range and the fan will stay off.
The belt dressing did calm the squeal below 2000 rpm, so I took the car out for a couple of drives while logging for tuning the MAF. The first trip was about 5 miles, the second one was about 15 miles. I was taking it quite easy and never gave it more than 20% throttle...
The Tach reads about 10% low which is interesting as it is still calibrated as a V6. Still more work to get it closer, but its within range and down the list right now.
The dash speedometer now works and is within 10-20% of real road speed (reads low), but the speed in the ecm is only showing about 25% of actual speed. All parameters were changed for the F40 VSS (78 tooth) the 3.55 FD, but I think the issue is with the FD ratio. RWD applications have the VSS before the FD and the F40 has it physically on the FD. I might try entering the FD as 1:1 and see what happens. I need the ECM to show the right speed for DoD.
On Sunday I will probably do some more driving/tuning/debugging... Might even take a couple more videos.
This is a great build thread. I have been away for work but I am back home and this thread is were I headed to first. Sometimes we don’t say it enough but I just want to say thanks for the help you have given me on my build.
One of the major accomplishment today was fixing the belt squeal. Installed the new belt and the squealing stopped immediately. It looks like the other belt (also new to this swap) looks like the grooves were too wide and didn't grab the pulley as much as this one does. The squeal free belt is on the right:
I also reworked the Reverse lockout tang so it took more effort to engage reverse. My main reason for this was to make it easier to find 1st or 2nd. 3/4 self centers, 5/6 has a hard stop on the side, so I just needed a firmer lockout.
Switched the idle (below 1000 rpm) to open loop and started tweaking the Electronic Throttle settings to speed up the decel of the engine. Lots of trial and error with countless reflashes, but made some progress. I did take the car out for a more spirited drive today, but the video camera's memory card reached capacity a couple of minutes into the drive.
Part of the issue with the VSS is that I made the initial changes for the F40 with version 2.22, but then switched to the 2.23 Beta version and the VSS cells are different ( the beta has more cells to edit). After quite a bit of comparing between the LS4 calibrations and some LS2 combos, I think I understand how everything needs to be set... time will tell.
Here is a crappy video from one of the test drives, the camera memory card ran out of space and ended it too soon. Next time I will roll the windows up to reduce the wind noise so you can hear the engine better, and maybe have the interior put back together...
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-12-2013).]
Nice! That video just really hammered home the point that I should have gone with your recommendation on muffler/types, and not gotten talked into going a different way. My car would probably be much quieter now. I say this because I could hear you shift at the lower speeds (before the wind overtook the mic). Hard to judge the exhaust noise by much else, but still - I gotta get my mufflers changed. lol
Thanks for posting it! Looking forward to one with the windows up!
Thanks for posting! The video was great and it appears the car runs and handles well. I have been wondering do you feel any vibration with your motor mount setup?
The 4 corner rubber mounts are quite stiff (not as stiff as poly) and there is no visible movement of the engine/transmission while idling/revving, but there is a slight chassis vibration at idle with the lope from the camshaft (you can see the radiator fan bounce). This is probably less than 10% of the chassis vibration from my 88 2.5 car. I am hopful that once I dial in the idle parameters for the camshaft it will smooth out some more.
While at speed the engine/transmission are very smooth, but when I release the clutch quickly it will rock the drivetrain slightly due to the rubber mounts. Overall I am quite pleased with the mounts.
Works been busy this week with customer meetings/dinners, so hopefully I will fine more time this weekend to progress further with the tuning/driving.
Is there any gauge on the computer or in the vehicle that tells you what you fuel economy is with the dod on?
The BCM is what does that in the cars with the DIC. Without a BCM you'd have to build something else to read the data and calculate the current/average MPG to display. To get the factory display, you'll need to install the DIC and BCM as well.
There's a few different ways to get reasonable MPG numbers based on what data you have, if one wants to build a circuit themselves though.
Originally posted by diabloroadster: Have you been able to detect if the DoD mode is working? I know there are alot of varibles that all have to be right for it to activate....
I have DoD disabled in the tune right now as I dial in the engine in V8 mode. One of these days I will turn it on and see what happens.
I machined a set of 84-87 front hubs for another PFF'r this morning, then set to work doing more to the LS4 car.
If you don't fully seat a plug wire on these newer ignition systems, they will melt the plug boot...
So I used purchased another set of plug wires and cut a new replacement (and put 7 more spares on the shelf in case I do it again!).
Since I have changed the MAF, TB, Intake, Injectors, Camshaft, Exhaust manifolds... getting everything dialed in will be a chore. Based on the advice of the other LS4 guy running the came camshaft, I installed the stock LS4 injectors/fuel rail to remove 1 variable as I dial in the idle and MAF calibration. I got some injector spacers off ebay for $49 and use a couple of 3/8" nuts as spacers under the fuel rail... pretty easy swap, but I won't been keeping these parts on long...
This is for a Gen 3 car, but most of the info/theory relates to the Gen 4's as well. The first round of logging the Base Running Air Flow and the subsequent table revisions made a vast improvement in the idle quality at 800 rpm. I will come back and do this again once I have the MAF more dialed in. I took the car out for a drive/log after the idle work and it has a lot more torque right off idle.
I had to make a .1V adjustment to the wide band signal (logged through the fuel tank pressure 0-5V input) to line it up with the narrow band. Over a sample of 35000 data points (after all the P/E data was filtered out), the average commanded A/F ratio of 14.68 resulted in an average wide band value of 14.66. I will continue to check this comparison as I get everything dialed as it might need another minor tweak.
One thing to note, HP Tuners has a built in histogram functions to help determine the needed changes from the log data, but they don't exclude the transient "noise" from the data set. So like I did when tuning OBD1, I dump the log data to an excel file I created. The file filters the data and only uses the data if the TPS sensor value is within +/-1% of the 10 sample average (5 in front, 5 behind). This should greatly reduce any transient noise. From there the file has multiple sheets with lookup tables, pivots, and other features. So you paste in the tables (MAF, Airflow, Timing, etc), paste in the data log, refresh the pivots and then you can copy/paste the new updated tables back into HP tuners. My method takes longer vs. using the histograms, but I think my method is more precise...
You might be able to use these for spacers when swapping injectors;
Did you have a big change in A/F when you swapped back to the LS4 injectors? Are they easier to tune? I guess I dont understand the reason to swap back to the LS4 injectors/rail unless you had a bad injector from the other set.... But Im glad that your making progress on the tuning....
You might be able to use these for spacers when swapping injectors;
Did you have a big change in A/F when you swapped back to the LS4 injectors? Are they easier to tune? I guess I dont understand the reason to swap back to the LS4 injectors/rail unless you had a bad injector from the other set.... But Im glad that your making progress on the tuning....
The rail/injectors won't be installed long enough to worry about a better spacer method. They are just installed until I dial in the MAF.
The reason for going back to the stock injectors is just to reduce variables. While tuning the MAF you log STFT and the HZ on the MAF and make changes. If either the MAF or injector flow is off, it will change the STFT value. Keeping the stock LS4 injectors/fuel rail should help minimize any fuel flow induced variation as I calibrate the new/larger MAF.
Once I think the MAF is dialed in, I will change to the larger injecotrs and log some STFT at a specific MAF hz value accross a wide range of MAP values. Since the Gen 4 LS engines do not use a vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator, the flow rate of the injectors change with manifold vacuum. By logging the STFT for a fixed airflow rate across a range of MAP values, I can then tweak the IFR tables to have a consistant STFT across all MAP values. Once they are the same across multiple MAP values, then the remaining STFT delta is most likely MAF related and it will need to be further tweaked.
You can do this process starting with the LS2 injectors, but I think the base LS4 IFR tables have a better chance of being closer from the start, which means the initial calibration of the MAF will be closer from the start.
Sure your fuel is 14.68? If it has Ethanol (like most pump fuels these days, doesn't have to be labeled now) it'll be more like 14.0
14.68 is the commanded A/F ratio for part-throttle and is what the stock O2 sensor is working to maintain. The actual ideal A/F ratio might be different based on fuel type, but the stock O2 is working to maintain 14.68. So all I am doing is making sure the wideband matches the stock O2 sensor at 14.68.
The rail/injectors won't be installed long enough to worry about a better spacer method. They are just installed until I dial in the MAF.
The reason for going back to the stock injectors is just to reduce variables. While tuning the MAF you log STFT and the HZ on the MAF and make changes. If either the MAF or injector flow is off, it will change the STFT value. Keeping the stock LS4 injectors/fuel rail should help minimize any fuel flow induced variation as I calibrate the new/larger MAF.
Once I think the MAF is dialed in, I will change to the larger injecotrs and log some STFT at a specific MAF hz value accross a wide range of MAP values. Since the Gen 4 LS engines do not use a vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator, the flow rate of the injectors change with manifold vacuum. By logging the STFT for a fixed airflow rate across a range of MAP values, I can then tweak the IFR tables to have a consistant STFT across all MAP values. Once they are the same across multiple MAP values, then the remaining STFT delta is most likely MAF related and it will need to be further tweaked.
You can do this process starting with the LS2 injectors, but I think the base LS4 IFR tables have a better chance of being closer from the start, which means the initial calibration of the MAF will be closer from the start.
I get it now! Im kinda slow... Looking foward to hearing that thing purr!
It has been either too cold or raining so the car hasn't left the garage since the weekend. I found a better thread specific to the Gen 4 idle tuning for larger cams and used it to really dial in the idle. Post 85 in this thread has all the information and even a config file for the scanner. http://www.hptuners.com/for...hrow+towel%22&page=5
quote
Originally posted by 5_Liter_Eater: ***Updated for clarity and added CFCO recommendation 7/18/12***
I just did this again and refined the process a little. As of 3/23/11 this is now updated for 2.23 and the config/histo changed to plot dynamic airflow. I have only ever done it on a manual car so the auto steps are SWAG's.
- Set you're target idle speed to whatever you would like it to be (be reasonable based on your cam)
- Set your idle speed minimum to the same as your lowest target idle speed. IE: I have 900 when cold ramping down to 750 when warm so I'd use 750 for idle speed minimum.
- Make your idle spark table match the corresponding columns from your HO spark table. The reason for this is that the idle spark table is only referenced when the speed is 0 and the HO table is referenced when moving. I can't see a reason for wanting them to be different. If you make changes to one, make them to the other as well. You do want the advance in the idle cells to not be optimum. I suggest ~15-20 degrees. This is so the adaptive idle spark can add spark and actually have it do something. If you have your idle spark at the ideal then adding to it won't help.
- Under Idle, Idle Airflow, Base Running Airflow, zero out the entire Airflow Final Minimum table. This prevents the PCM from predicting any minimum airflow which would prevent us from finding the real minimums.
- I suggest leaving the idle adaptive spark control overspeed and underspeed tables and adaptive idle proportional and integral tables as they come stock. Since I can't find an empirical way to determine how much to edit these tables, i leave them alone and they seem to do a nice job even when I had my lopey big overlap cam. The other thing I'll say about these is the airflow tables under proportional and integral should remain stock, even on a scaled tune. I've tried cutting them in half along with all the other airflow/airmass related tables when I do a 50% scaled tune and it doesn't work out well.
- Unlike gen 3 idle tuning, start with a warmed up engine. AC off. This is where idle airflow will be the smallest. While parked, start the motor and in VCM controls command the different RPM's in the airflow final minimum table; 650, 800, 1000, 1200, etc. As of 2.23 you cannot type in numbers into this field anymore. I think it stops at 1200 now. Leave it at each cell for at least 30 seconds, 60 is better so the values in each cell can stabilize. You may have a hard time staying in the 650 RPM cell until later when the numbers get more accurate or if you have a big cam you may not be able to get it to go that low at all. Automatic guys will want to do this in park and again in drive with the e-brake on and tire stops for safety. Use the park numbers for park and neutral and the drive numbers for all other gears, although in actuality you will probably only be able to get the 660 and 800 numbers while in drive. Manual guys use the neutral numbers for all gears.
- Using histogram 10 on average (A), which plots dynamic airflow against the final idle airflow minimum table. The idea is to command the lowest RPM in each field so we find the minimum flow for each cell. Simply using the "L" function (lowest value) of the histogram doesn't yield good results.
- Paste the numbers you get directly into the Airflow Final Minimum table for all gears (auto guys use the numbers for park and neutral and re-do in gear and paste those values in all other gears). Leave the values above the RPM's you stopped as zeros and make up some numbers for the 450 and 250 RPM cells that follow the trend of the line. Then sutract 20% from the whole table (select all and multiply by .8).
- Flash and restart the engine. Log idle adapt advance against the final idle airflow minimum table with histo 11 using the average (A). Command the RPM's again, just like before. Copy and paste these numbers (paste special, multiply by %) into the appropriate cells. (again, auto guys will need to do this in park and drive) Raise or lower the lower RPM cells accordingly to make a straight line. Lather, rinse, repeat until the adaptive spark numbers are +-1 degree. I realize we're taking the number of degrees that the adaptive idle control is having to add or remove and pasting that into the tune as a percentage of airflow and that doesnt make any sense, but it works. With each iteration you will see the adaptive idle spark getting closer to zero. The less the adaptive idle spark has to work the closer we are to the real idle airflow minimum. Even though the adaptive idle spark does not come into play when moving, since the airflow numbers are correct there should be no dipping, hanging or flaring when returning to idle.
Lastly for the manual guys, I recommend disabling CFCO. I was still having some flaring/dipping when I was in traffic at low RPMs and pushed the clutch in. Disabling CFCO cleared this right up.
Cold, snow and rain... car hasn't left the garage in over a week.
I also found an error in the Range Wiring...
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Signal P is always open for every gear and how it is currently wired, so no change needed.
If you look closely at Signal P - it does indeed change states and is grounded in P,N, 3 and 1... so I need to add a N.O. clutch switch for this signal as well. My current Clutch/Starter switch (which is N.O.) has 2 plug connectors, but the 2nd one doesn't have any terminals in it. So I purchased another one (NS88) that isn't a direct fit (terminal connections the same, but doesn't have the mounting bracket), but I should be able to take the two apart and build the one I need.
are there any V8 cars with DOD and a manual? or any V8 manual trans cars that use the same PCM?
To my knowledge, there are no manual transmission vehicles with a functioning DoD system and I think I am the only nutcase making an attempt at it.
The E67 ecm was used for DoD applications as well as manual transmission applications. Many of the DoD tables are still within the manual transmission calibrations, but who knows if they are just there or if GM actually did some tuning with them at some point. Once I confirm it works (thinking positive), then I will start to play around with things more.
The concern is if you read the patent, they talk about a clutch switch, shifter sensors and trying to anticipate an upshift/downshift. The manual DoD program may be looking for these additional sensors that I am not installing (and wouldn't know where to wire them to the ecm if I had them) and it might still not work. It seems like GM was wanting to use DoD in multiple gears to improve in town mileage vs. my focus being strictly on 45-80 in 5th or 6th. Hopefully with my more simplistic approach I can get it to work w/o shaking the car to bits as it engages and disengages... just need some warmer/drier weather.
To my knowledge, there are no manual transmission vehicles with a functioning DoD system and I think I am the only nutcase making an attempt at it.
The E67 ecm was used for DoD applications as well as manual transmission applications. Many of the DoD tables are still within the manual transmission calibrations, but who knows if they are just there or if GM actually did some tuning with them at some point. Once I confirm it works (thinking positive), then I will start to play around with things more.
The concern is if you read the patent, they talk about a clutch switch, shifter sensors and trying to anticipate an upshift/downshift. The manual DoD program may be looking for these additional sensors that I am not installing (and wouldn't know where to wire them to the ecm if I had them) and it might still not work. It seems like GM was wanting to use DoD in multiple gears to improve in town mileage vs. my focus being strictly on 45-80 in 5th or 6th. Hopefully with my more simplistic approach I can get it to work w/o shaking the car to bits as it engages and disengages... just need some warmer/drier weather.
the reason I asked is because I'm in a similar boat with my 3500 F23 swap(engine with no manual option), and what I am doing is referencing other cars that used the same PCM for things like the clutch switch input. in my case, the 1998 3800 5 speed F body uses the same PCM as mine, so I looked at all the pinouts, and found the 3800 PCM looks for a clutch input under the same input as "transaxle range A".
The new Corvette c7 is the first I'm aware of that has DOD with a manual. Avalible in the fall with VVT also
Apparently it does... hadn't looked much at the C7 setup yet. Looks like it will use the E92 or E95 PCM which has been out a couple years already in Europe, but so far no one has hacked it... which will make mods/swaps quite difficult for several more years.
Been having quite a bit of fun dialing this swap. The STFT in the lower MAF table are now within 0.7% and knock free (so far to 4K RPM and 80KPA). I am now running the CTSV 6 speed manual timing tables and ended up pulling .5 degrees of timing from about 10 cells.
Still working on the hanging RPM when I stab the clutch... might need to reduce the throttle follower settings.
Might tray to take a few more videos this week if the weather cooperates.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-31-2013).]
