The rail/injectors won't be installed long enough to worry about a better spacer method. They are just installed until I dial in the MAF.
The reason for going back to the stock injectors is just to reduce variables. While tuning the MAF you log STFT and the HZ on the MAF and make changes. If either the MAF or injector flow is off, it will change the STFT value. Keeping the stock LS4 injectors/fuel rail should help minimize any fuel flow induced variation as I calibrate the new/larger MAF.
Once I think the MAF is dialed in, I will change to the larger injecotrs and log some STFT at a specific MAF hz value accross a wide range of MAP values. Since the Gen 4 LS engines do not use a vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator, the flow rate of the injectors change with manifold vacuum. By logging the STFT for a fixed airflow rate across a range of MAP values, I can then tweak the IFR tables to have a consistant STFT across all MAP values. Once they are the same across multiple MAP values, then the remaining STFT delta is most likely MAF related and it will need to be further tweaked.
You can do this process starting with the LS2 injectors, but I think the base LS4 IFR tables have a better chance of being closer from the start, which means the initial calibration of the MAF will be closer from the start.
What injectors are you going to? I have a lot of injector spec as in the IFR, voltage offset etc
Been having quite a bit of fun dialing this swap. The STFT in the lower MAF table are now within 0.7% and knock free (so far to 4K RPM and 80KPA). I am now running the CTSV 6 speed manual timing tables and ended up pulling .5 degrees of timing from about 10 cells.
Still working on the hanging RPM when I stab the clutch... might need to reduce the throttle follower settings.
Might tray to take a few more videos this week if the weather cooperates.
Originally posted by diabloroadster: Is your IAC functioning correctly?
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Originally posted by ericjon262: he's DBW, he doesn't have one...
Correct, no IAC, just a 90mm throttle body that isn't closing fast enough when I push in the clutch and let off the gas. I am going to redo my Base Running Airflow adjustments now that the MAF is dialed in for the low table and switch everything timing related to the CTSV values. I can make it close faster by adjusting the throttle area scalar higher, but then is hurts idle quality. The area scalar is supposed to the the open area of the TB and I have it set to the correct values for the 90MM LS2 throttle body. Zeroing out the throttle follower also brings the RPMs down faster, but hurts launch performance quite a bit. Maybe I need to keep it down low and zero out the upper end... lots of trial and error.
Not sure where I remember this from, but don't modern dbw engines intentionally idle down slowly to reduce NOx from when the throttle snaps closed? Is this what you're fighting?
Originally posted by aaronkoch: Not sure where I remember this from, but don't modern dbw engines intentionally idle down slowly to reduce NOx from when the throttle snaps closed? Is this what you're fighting?
Yes and Yes. The automatics also drop RPM slower and since I am using an automatic calibration with a manual it is particularly annoying. I need to keep the automatic calibration for DoD, so I am trying all the adjustments within the Electronic Throttle parameters to get it to drop RPM much faster.
Are you running with Torque Management enabled? If so, pulling those numbers back a bit might help. Don't know if the program you're running at the moment has it or not, but I know it does make the trucks feel a bit weird at times, and cutting the Torque Management back is a very common thing to do on them.
Also, I was wondering if you know much in regards to the e38 vs e67 ECMs. I have an e67 already that I was planning to use, but don't have a harness for it. However, a squirrel chewed through the harness in my truck, which had to be replaced, and I got to keep the old one, so I have a harness for an e38 that I could use to build the harness for my LS4. Do you think I should just grab an e38 ECM, or try to find a harness for the LS4 or LS2 to build up and use with the e67 ECM? Buying the ECM and using the e38 harness will of course be cheaper at this point.
from what I have looked at between auto and manual bin files, torque management is almost entirely disabled in the manual bin compared to the automatic. mind you, I'm looking at older V6 PCMs, not the newer DBW stuff.
Originally posted by dobey: Also, I was wondering if you know much in regards to the e38 vs e67 ECMs. I have an e67 already that I was planning to use, but don't have a harness for it. However, a squirrel chewed through the harness in my truck, which had to be replaced, and I got to keep the old one, so I have a harness for an e38 that I could use to build the harness for my LS4. Do you think I should just grab an e38 ECM, or try to find a harness for the LS4 or LS2 to build up and use with the e67 ECM? Buying the ECM and using the e38 harness will of course be cheaper at this point.
I haven't looked at the E38 ecm's much at all yet. It looks like the E38 uses 2 of the 3 connectors that the E67 uses. The pins are likely the same and it shouldn't be much of an issue to repin them to the E67 configuration (and buy the blue E67 connector that is missing). I would stick with the E67 since I will have most of the technical aspects of using one figured out shortly. The E38 will be a larger learning curve.
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Originally posted by ericjon262:
from what I have looked at between auto and manual bin files, torque management is almost entirely disabled in the manual bin compared to the automatic. mind you, I'm looking at older V6 PCMs, not the newer DBW stuff.
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In the newer ECM's TM is still there even with the manuals, just different values. The exception is the GM Crate Motor ECM's, they have the TM tables disabled (or alteast the GMPP LS3 E67 has them disabled).
The good news is I am making progress on the slow decline of the engine RPM's after letting off the throttle when stabbing the clutch. In Idle, Airflow, Throttle Follower, Airflow Step Down: I quadrupled all the values in the table. This made a small improvement In Idle, Airflow, Throttle Follower, Torque: I doubled all the values in the table and this made a huge improvement, but caused some drivability issues launching right off idle. So next I left all values stock below 1200rpm. The ones above I multiplied by 1.5. This fixed the launch issue, and made an significant improvement in the throttle decline speed (but not as much as doubling it).
I still have a few more rounds of tweaks to dial the speed of RPM drop, but I am at least making progress!
Haven't touched the car in several days... been waiting on parts. In addition to the engine/transmission swap, this is pretty much a resurrection thread as this car has sat for years... The latest issue with it sitting dormant is that the fuel tank was heavily rusted. I didn't notice it at the time I swapped the fuel pump (though the pickup was crusty before I cleaned it) and it didn't really show up as an issue until I swapped back to the LS2 injectors... orange/brown gas coming out the fuel rail. It didn't do that the first time I swapped the injectors, but then again I didn't put much gas in it. As I started to fill it up further and drive it around sloshing the fuel, the gas picked up lots and lots of rust.
So I ordered a new fuel pump, filter/regulator and building a fuel injector cleaning tool so I can clean up both sets of injectors. While I have been waiting, the tank has been filled with almost 12 gallons of vinegar since Saturday. I pulled the pickup on Monday and it was clean again. The real nice part is the fuel level sender now goes from 0- 97 ohms and I couldn't get it down under 20 ohms before. It was given a nice coating of WD40 and now has the new fuel pump installed and ready to go back in the tank.
Hopefully, I will have it back running this weekend.
The 88 tank I had picked up that was sitting around had noticeable amount of rust in it when I took it out of the shed during my latest move. How can one determine when it's beyond recovering, save for holes rusting through? The exterior of the tank looks like it's in good shape. (if I can just fill it up with vinegar for a few days and dump it out, great!!)
The 88 tank I had picked up that was sitting around had noticeable amount of rust in it when I took it out of the shed during my latest move. How can one determine when it's beyond recovering, save for holes rusting through? The exterior of the tank looks like it's in good shape. (if I can just fill it up with vinegar for a few days and dump it out, great!!)
There is no good way to know the condition of the tank as visibility into it is limited to the openings around the baffle. Filling it with vinegar for 3-5 days will clean up most of the rust and let you know if the tank has any holes for about $35.
The car is back running! Finished cleaning the fuel tank, installed the new fuel pump/filter, cleaned the LS2 injectors and installed them, reinstalled the tank, put in 11.5 gallons of 93 octane. Did another logging session and spun the engine to 5300 rpm and took it to 115 mph, max commanded torque was 210lb-ft with a max TPS of 52% and max Map at 82 kpa... so I wasn't really pushing it hard.
I need to swap the front wheels between the two cars as I don't trust the 7+ year old snow tires on the black car and the red one has less than 1 year old z-rated tires - wheels are the same between both cars. Once I do that, it should be time for a few WOT runs to see how it does.
I forgot how annoying it is when the head light covers pop up... going to have to do something about that
The new fuel pump is whisper quiet... just the way I like them.
I've seen people mention the headlight cover thing before, and know that a few places even sell a kit to make sure the covers don't tear themselves off when they pop up (does that actually happen??). I've never experienced that issue, regardless of speed or wind conditions. Does it happen because the springs for holding the covers down are worn, or do some covers sit slightly higher than flush with the hood, making it easier for air coming over the top of the hood to "hook" them?
Thank you for letting me know about the tank, and glad to hear you got everything cleaned and running again! Looking forward to some more videos from you, that's for certain.
Originally posted by Trinten: I've seen people mention the headlight cover thing before, and know that a few places even sell a kit to make sure the covers don't tear themselves off when they pop up (does that actually happen??). I've never experienced that issue, regardless of speed or wind conditions. Does it happen because the springs for holding the covers down are worn, or do some covers sit slightly higher than flush with the hood, making it easier for air coming over the top of the hood to "hook" them?
Air coming under the body builds up pressure under the front end of the car, which pushes the headlight covers in the hood, up. Typical ways to "fix" the problem are to add an extractor vent to the hood, or cut holes in a couple of places in the headlight areas, to relieve pressure and exhaust it back under the car, like fierosound did here: http://fierosound.com/moreM...iator%20Area%20Vents
And another option of course, is to go with molded/flush headlights instead of the pop-ups, but the pressure can still generate a small amount of front-end lift, so the venting would be wanted to reduce that as well.
That's so nice. I'm still jealous at how well your mufflers seem to work in those videos. Do you have a phone app or anything that would record what the peak decibels get to in the car when you're cruising at highway speeds?
That's so nice. I'm still jealous at how well your mufflers seem to work in those videos. Do you have a phone app or anything that would record what the peak decibels get to in the car when you're cruising at highway speeds?
Thanks! Its not all about the sound, but when they sound good its just better!
Cruising is quieter than my old SBC car and there is zero drone which is very nice. However, the loud pedal makes things loud in a hurry... especially behind the car. I will check with the EHS guy at work in the morning to see if I can use the plant's decibel measuring tool for a day or two.
Does sound pretty great now. What was the loud "clink" sound that happened at the same time the headlight door fell down when you let off the gas? Tools on the floor?
The loud clink when I started slowing down was some tools in the passenger floor board rolling around and hitting each other.
The LS4/F40 car did its first trip for the daily commute and lots of stop/go traffic. Its in town manners aren't as nice as the old SBC, the 12 lb flywheel and the 224/232 camshaft are the likely culprits. Over time I should get the hang of stop/go of dialing in just the right amount of throttle to take off from a stop light. After driving the 2.5/125C DD it seems like everyone decided to slow down about 20mph...
On the way to work this morning I finally did a WOT 3rd gear pull from about 2600 to 6100. The % A/F error between the commanded (12.69) to the wide band readings was within 1.1% for the pull and no data point was off more than 3.6% off... pretty good for the extrapolation I did in the upper range. A couple more pulls and I should have it dialed in very close.
The Maximum values were: Commanded Torque: 321 @ 4411rpm HP calculated from Torque: 329 @ 6200 (hadn't peaked yet) TPS: 100% MAP: 98 (baro was 98 when I started the car). However by 3500 RPM is was down to 97 and above 6K it was down to 94.8Kpa - I think the air filter is too small. MAF Airflow lb/min: 42.1 The other LS4 guy running the same camshaft, DT headers, Fast 102 intake, NW102 throttle body, and the LS7 MAF is pulling 44 lb/min so I am at least in the right range. However, this reading really makes me wonder about the accuracy of the commanded torque calculation (maybe there is a portion of the tune I haven't changed that it uses for the calculation). Who knows... Timing: 22 degrees above 5K
I also took a few decibel readings today all from inside the car in the center console area (NOTE: interior is not fully assembled yet): Idle windows up: 81-82 Idle windows down: 83-84 55mph cruise in 5th: 89-90 55mph cruise in 6th: 84-85 55mph coasting: 83-84 65mph cruising in 6th: 90
Outside car: 10' to the side idling: 87 10' to the rear idling: 90 10" to the rear with throttle blip: 90... I don't think the app I downloaded reads above 90 decibels as it should easily be in the 110 range
I will try to get the decibel meter from work.
Overall I am very pleased with the setup and will continue to refine the tune. Hopefully in a week or two I will schedule it on the same dyno I used for my SBC car so I can get some actual #'s.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-15-2013).]
Originally posted by fieroguru: I don't think the app I downloaded reads above 90 decibels as it should easily be in the 110 range
I will try to get the decibel meter from work.
The phone apps for it aren't really all that great. They're OK at making rough estimates, but they use the microphone in the phone, which is very small, and has its limits. The microphone and audio hardware often also has built-in noise filtering, to try and cancel out background noise while talking on the phone. This is why so many of the videos on YouTube of people rattling the heck out of their trucks to death with their 10KW stereo installs, sound so bad. Modern phones may have reasonably fast Internet connections, reasonably good cameras, and a microphone, but they're still just phones, not movie studios.
It will definitely be interesting to see how different the readings from a professional dB meter are.
Very nice Guru , I envy how refined the sound from your LS swap is . I know the camera doesn't do it justice and its probably a little louder in person, but the sound of your normal driving is nice in my book. When you got into it a little it got louder but manageable I would say.
I was able to check out the dosimeter at work and do some readings. At Idle: 10' in front of car: 68 10' to the side: 73 10' to the rear: 75 @ exhaust tips: 98 In car windows up: 70 In car windows down: 71
Rev to 6500 RPM: 10' to the rear: 97.3 @ tips: 121
While driving: 60 mph in 5th: 83 60 mph in 6th: 79-80
I would like to get the in car decibels down to the 75ish range if possible, first order of business is putting the rest of the interior back in.
Some readings from the 2.5/125C Fiero (with GT exhaust and no cat): In car idle: 65 cruise at 55: 72 cruise at 65 74
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-17-2013).]
Now for the invisible hood vent that didn't quite work as planned...
I am trying to keep the exterior of this car bone stock with the exception of the wheels/brakes and the head lights were popping up somewhere north of 80 mph.
Over the years there has been quite a bit of discussion around venting the radiator compartment via the head light area. Most of those discussions focus on drilling a large hole to the wall the headlights mount on and vent the air into the wheel well. Upon quick review, there isn't a single wall to pass through and in fact that area is open to the spare tire compartment. Here are a couple pics of that area:
As you can see in the 2nd picture the wheel well is seperate from the front firewall and has a gap all they way down to where they are welded together. So any hole in this firewall panel will vent to the spare tire area. If I wanted to do that, I would just cut the holes in the wall right behind the radiator.
So I started looking for other places to vent the air and settled on the outer side of the head light pocket. It is light gauge sheet metal and easily accessed for drilling. You will notice that there is already a hole there for the turn marker light wires to pass through.
Here is how much space is between the panel and the fender:
So I decided to drill two 3" holes in the side panel as shown:
On the Driver's side, the headlight module was in the way, so I relocated it down to make clearance for the holes:
To vent the air from the pocket between the panel and fender, I drilled three 3" holes in the wheel well liner.
Once the wheels/tires are put back on the holes are difficult to see just walking by the car. You have to get down and look up into the wheel well to see them:
Initial testing shows some minor improvement, but the light covers still popped open, but it took about 10mph more to do it. I suspect the headlight assembly is making it too turbulent/difficult for the vents to remove enough air pressure to keep the headlight doors closed. I still need to find/install the air dam for the fascia and I might try different torsion springs for the head lights... they might just be weak.
Does your 2.5 car have all the insulation in the engine bay still? Removing all that from the firewall and replacing it with a solid piece of metal probably doesn't help the engine noise in the cabin.
To dobey's point, I think while the interior is out, a nice layer of Dynamat would help greatly. The cars I've driven with it installed have been extremely quiet.
Yes, the 2.5 has the factory firewall insulation, the LS4/F40 car does not have any insulation in the engine bay (but I may add some between the rear firewall and the smooth one). I had already put some sound deading material on the inside of the firewall, the floor boards under the seats, and the center console area. I need a nice warm day to remove the roof panel and swap to a hardtop one. That will eliminate the vibrating sunroof, lessen the wind noise and avoid any potential sunroof leaks.
A month or 3 back I posted about my laptop going blank and baking the motherboard in the oven to fix it. Well it did it again early this week and the baking trick didn't work this time. So I ordered 2 new motherboards (one for a spare, figured if I had a spare in stock I would never need it, which is a good thing in my book) and will try to get the laptop back up and running this evening.
You could spray the back side of the smooth firewall with Herculiner or Lizrad Skin (which actually is a sound dampener), to reduce sound making it into the cabin and provide some insulation, too. The Lizard Skin goes on pretty thin, but works as well as, if not better than, the much thicker/heavier Dynamat and similar roll-on products.
Just a suggestion. I'm probably going to get some Lizard Skin sprayed on in various places, in both my Fiero and my Avalanche.
how are you liking the transmission? How does it shift? You already mentioned the clutch characteristics.
Are you still thinking of producing the flywheel and starter mount?
Overall the transmission is OK to Decent. Some thinks I love about it, some things are marginal/tolerable and others I don't much care for. I love the 6th gear for the quieter cabin noise, the lower cruise RPM and what should be better fuel efficiency. 3rd gear is also quite nice with the power band/RPM range of this engine... I can hit 100mph at 6800 rpm in 3rd with 24.6" tires.
The gates on the shifter are really close and it takes a little getting used to, but they are OK. Even though the first few gears have triple syncros, they seem to take much longer to sync than I would like and it slows the whole shifting process down (this is probably why no F40 car has posted impressive 1/4 mile ET's). I am running the GM fluid at the revised level, but will be looking into some type of additive to help speed up the synco function. The worst part about the transmission is the noise from it. When idling it sounds like some gears are rocking back and forth and sounds like a rod knock. I can push on the clutch and it goes away and if I slowly release the clutch it will be quiet for a while. If I quickly let out the clutch in neutral, it will slap back and forth. Also, at low RPM's (1200-1600) in 4th or higher when you start applying throttle it sounds like the internals of the transmission are vibrating (probably the same issue as the knocking at idle, just at a higher frequency. It settles down as the RPM's pick up, but when you have an engine that will pull that low, it would be nice if the transmission didn't complain about it.
There is a good chance I will be offering the LS4/F40 flywheel and starter bracket later this year (Oct/Nov/Dec time frame). I want to put some miles on the setup and ensure everything works like it should before starting to offer them.
Originally posted by fieroguru: The gates on the shifter are really close and it takes a little getting used to, but they are OK. Even though the first few gears have triple syncros, they seem to take much longer to sync than I would like and it slows the whole shifting process down (this is probably why no F40 car has posted impressive 1/4 mile ET's). I am running the GM fluid at the revised level, but will be looking into some type of additive to help speed up the synco function. The worst part about the transmission is the noise from it. When idling it sounds like some gears are rocking back and forth and sounds like a rod knock. I can push on the clutch and it goes away and if I slowly release the clutch it will be quiet for a while. If I quickly let out the clutch in neutral, it will slap back and forth. Also, at low RPM's (1200-1600) in 4th or higher when you start applying throttle it sounds like the internals of the transmission are vibrating (probably the same issue as the knocking at idle, just at a higher frequency. It settles down as the RPM's pick up, but when you have an engine that will pull that low, it would be nice if the transmission didn't complain about it.
Is the shift gate issue a result of using a modified Fiero shifter? I haven't run any F40 swapped Fieros through the gears, but I haven't noticed any issues driving the modern GM FWD 6 speed cars (F40 or M32).
The noise in the trans when idle is a common complaint with the F40 in the G6. I think it was fixed in the newer version of the F40, but not entirely sure as it's a rarity in the G6, and I don't know if it's as much a problem, or a problem at all, in the 4 cylinder cars with the F40. The dual mass flywheel helps with this, as it dampens the vibration coming from the engine. The problem is exacerbated by using a solid flywheel as we have to do here. It's too bad there aren't any dual mass flywheels that have the smaller ring gear, are thick enough for the LS4+F40, and mount to the LS crank flange. It would probably help a fair bit, though would also be much heavier (which may not be a bad thing, given Joseph Upson's experience with damaged internals on his one F40).
Originally posted by dobey: Is the shift gate issue a result of using a modified Fiero shifter?
Most likely. Instead of just 3 gates, you have 4 in approximately the same space (you do increase the side to side travel some), but I think the issue is the mechanical advantage built into the fiero shifter. It will self center in the 3/4 gate and 5/6 are along a fixed stop. 1/2 are a little more challenging as the reverse lockout isn't the strongest (easy to go past it). I need to get a longer bolt and shim the lockout tab down further so it will be more of a positive stop.
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Originally posted by dobey: The noise in the trans when idle is a common complaint with the F40 in the G6.
Yup, knew going in about the noise and that the lighter single mass flywheel and lopey camshaft would all make it worse. Just going to have to get used to it.
