Started mocking up the coolant hoses and took a trip to Autozone and found a good candidate for the water pump inlet. The thermostat exit is a simple 90 and then it will go into a steel tube to cross over to the driver side coolant tube. I will need to replace the passenger tube - I need to cut it back about 6" and the one that is on there is unbent (so I do not want to cut it). I will grab one of the spares that is bent slightly and use it.
I have a customer's fiero coming here on Sunday for a SBC/Getrag swap, so I needed to prep the LS4/F40 swap and my 88 chassis for storage... so I have been busy getting everything ready to paint.
In the morning the blue and black paint will be spraying...
This project is temporarily on hold while I work on a customer's car.
The Blue 88 is back in the line up:
The garage is also the cleanest it has been in quite some time (still a little cluttered... but what do you expect with all my tools in a 2 car garage).
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-26-2011).]
I was at Paul's last week, he is currently working on a rebody doing an engine swap for someone. Won't go into the details but, he's busy with this and has put his LS4 project on hold for a while. Paul is very detail oriented and produces a great product. There is no doubt in my mind he could quit is day job and successfully build cars for a living.
While this project is on hold until I finish up a 383 SBC/Getrag swap for a PFF member, I did have an opportunity to compare a Fiero 2.8 Spec Stage 3+ clutch (9 1/8") to the 4.0 Ford Ranger Spec Stage 4+ clutch (10") that I am using for my LS4/F40 swap. The 4.0L Ranger Spec Stage 4+ clutch is on the left and the Fiero 2.8 Spec Stage 3+ is on the right:
As you can see the 10" version I am using has a thicker pressure plate and the friction material is not only larger in overall diameter, it is also wider. Running the numbers, the 10" clutch has 25% more friction area and the centerline of the friction material is 1/2" larger in diameter. Both of these factors should help with drivability which is what I was going after.
From a weight standpoint: Fiero 2.8 Spec Stage 3+ clutch/pressure plate: 15 lbs 5oz 4.0L Ranger Spec Stage 4+ clutch/pressure plate: 16 lbs 5 oz
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-24-2011).]
Paul, thank you for the ls1 based 142 tooth flywheel for my lsv8/f23 conversion. your work is very nice. i gave you a plus for your craftsmanship. thank you again.
Wow, I literally just read all this information and I have to say FieroGuru you are a fountain of knowledge. You have made me change my mind about 99% about the motor and transmission I want to use in my fiero. Your documentation on this is amazing, great build, beautiful work and craftsmanship, are you going to make templates of the starter modification that you've done and the flywheel? I'm not 100% sure that with the information you've given out that people couldn't make their own templates because you've documented this so well! A+++
Syn
PS Question are you going to be retuning this to run with out Cats?
[This message has been edited by Syn (edited 09-01-2011).]
I have been approached by a few members about the starter bracket and the flywheel. I am not opposed to selling them once I have my swap up and running so I can validate the design. If I decide to market the F40 flywheel/clutch package, I will be able to produce them for all the common engines (60 degree, 3800SC, 4.9, N* and LS4).
As for the tune w/o cats, the lack of converters is the least of my tuning issues. With the larger MAF, LS2 throttlebody, LS2 Intake, LS2 Injectors, 224/232 camshaft and LS7 manifolds the combo will need some significant tuning to just get it to idle and drive. Once the tune is spot on, then I will be able to play with it some more to try and get the DoD feature to work with the manual transmission. Lots of tuning ahead of me.
Since I haven't posted a pic to this thread in a while, here are a few pics of my current distraction:
I have been approached by a few members about the starter bracket and the flywheel. I am not opposed to selling them once I have my swap up and running so I can validate the design. If I decide to market the F40 flywheel/clutch package, I will be able to produce them for all the common engines (60 degree, 3800SC, 4.9, N* and LS4).
As for the tune w/o cats, the lack of converters is the least of my tuning issues. With the larger MAF, LS2 throttlebody, LS2 Intake, LS2 Injectors, 224/232 camshaft and LS7 manifolds the combo will need some significant tuning to just get it to idle and drive. Once the tune is spot on, then I will be able to play with it some more to try and get the DoD feature to work with the manual transmission. Lots of tuning ahead of me.
your welcome!
and I can honestly say if you offered the starter and flywheel as a kit I would pay whatever price you wanted to charge
This is in no way a statement of any fact at all so grain of salt please, but it would seem like to me with it having DoD it would need the back pressure of the cats, I don't think that the muffler alone would give you the backpressure you would need. It just seems like that would be something that the computer would take into affect. As far as the DoD working with a manual I wouldn't think that would be that big of deal because doesn't it engage with RPM's and fuel consumption?
on an unrelated note what ever happened to that 4th gen rear glass project you had? did anything become of that?
I do not think back pressure plays that big of a role in DoD performance, especially since in stock form the exhaust is immediately over sized once it enters 4cyl mode. Some long tube headers would probably help the 4cyl mode performance. I will have bigger issues with the surge/jerk that will happen when it engages/disengages and it will sound like total crap when it is in 4 cyl mode. My goal is to limit DoD activation to only happening in 6th gear, above 54 mph and below 80 mph.
DoD activation is quite sensitive to inputs from everything else. There are 27 parameters or conditions that must be met for DoD to activate and then it has time limitations for staying in 4 cyl mode and how long it must be in 8 cyl mode between 4 cyl mode events. My challenge is that 3 of the 27 parameters come directly from the 4T65e-HD that is no longer present. Transmission Gear Incorrect, Transmission Range Incorrect and Transmission gear shift in progress. Within the ECM I can limit DoD to when the selector is in drive and only in 4th gear, so I will probably setup something to show this condition when the shifter lever is placed in 6th gear on the F40. Then I can adjust the speed parameters to further limit the DoD window to where I want it.
Within the LS4 ecm program, there is also a "Manual Transmission" switch. I am curious what happens when that is selected in regards to DoD. The LS2/6 speed corvette ECM also has DoD parameters in it, so maybe GM did some initial testing with DoD and a manual transmission and deemed it to harsh during the engage/disengage events for general use. The unknown is how bad will it truly be (and one of the reasons I rubber mounted the engine/transmission).
The 4th gen hatch project is gathering dust in the basement... too many projects, not enough free time or $$$ to work on them all. Someday I might get back to it...
I do not think back pressure plays that big of a role in DoD performance, especially since in stock form the exhaust is immediately over sized once it enters 4cyl mode. Some long tube headers would probably help the 4cyl mode performance. I will have bigger issues with the surge/jerk that will happen when it engages/disengages and it will sound like total crap when it is in 4 cyl mode. My goal is to limit DoD activation to only happening in 6th gear, above 54 mph and below 80 mph.
DoD activation is quite sensitive to inputs from everything else. There are 27 parameters or conditions that must be met for DoD to activate and then it has time limitations for staying in 4 cyl mode and how long it must be in 8 cyl mode between 4 cyl mode events. My challenge is that 3 of the 27 parameters come directly from the 4T65e-HD that is no longer present. Transmission Gear Incorrect, Transmission Range Incorrect and Transmission gear shift in progress. Within the ECM I can limit DoD to when the selector is in drive and only in 4th gear, so I will probably setup something to show this condition when the shifter lever is placed in 6th gear on the F40. Then I can adjust the speed parameters to further limit the DoD window to where I want it.
Within the LS4 ecm program, there is also a "Manual Transmission" switch. I am curious what happens when that is selected in regards to DoD. The LS2/6 speed corvette ECM also has DoD parameters in it, so maybe GM did some initial testing with DoD and a manual transmission and deemed it to harsh during the engage/disengage events for general use. The unknown is how bad will it truly be (and one of the reasons I rubber mounted the engine/transmission).
The 4th gen hatch project is gathering dust in the basement... too many projects, not enough free time or $$$ to work on them all. Someday I might get back to it...
Ok well that was about 100xs more informative than anything I've read so far on the DoD, I'm really not that big on the whole DoD thing anyways as it only yields at max 7.5% better efficiency overall. I imagine you will benefit more from DoD since you've reduced so much rotational mass. Well in any event I look forward to reading more about this and your trials and tribulations, You might make me reconsider DoD because the idea of having a 6 speed with DoD is a great idea to me because its almost like the best of both worlds but as of right now I'm leaning more toward the traditional set up.
Did you ever get anything hooked up with the 4thgen rear or was it mainly just the rear end of a Camaro set on top of a bare fiero? I love the way it looked and made my brain just go in all different directions with ideas of how I could make that work here and here with this bumper and these side panels ext ext.
DoD is more of a gimmick overall, but it does work to some degree (I drove a 2009 Suburban with a 5.3 DOD from KY to DC through the mountains and averaged 19 mpg). All I am after is maximizing my interstate fuel efficiency to reduce fuel costs and fuel stops for road trips.
My big focus with it is even with the F40 the cruise RPM's will still be much higher than the low RPM's obtainable with the RWD T56 cars at interstate speeds and this higher RPM (especially on a large V8) just increases pumping losses and reduces fuel efficiency (if the F40 had a 3.0 final drive, I wouldn't mess with DoD). My smaller displacement of 5.3L will help, but the super small fiero gas tank really puts a damper on long road trips (like the HRPT when I was filling up 2-3 times a day). So I am hopeful that restricting DoD to only work at interstate speeds that it will be tolerable.
Before this swap is done, I will also have a new/larger fuel tank to maximize the available space and probably a larger expansion tank on the passenger frame rail. When I am burning up the interstate, on a long trip, I really hate stopping for gas every 2 1/2 to 3 hrs.
The furthest I got with the camaro hatch was doing the test fits and trimming the rear GT body work. Before I get back to it, I have to get a fiero with an engine in it first (my 2 88's are currently sitting engineless - the blue one is getting the LS4/F40 and an eventual chop top (hatch will not fit), the black/yellow one is getting the 4.3/F40 swap that is mostly complete and sitting on the shelf as well. The 4.3 car will be my daily driver and will probably get the hatch some day to show off this engine:
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-03-2011).]
DoD is more of a gimmick overall, but it does work to some degree (I drove a 2009 Suburban with a 5.3 DOD from KY to DC through the mountains and averaged 19 mpg). All I am after is maximizing my interstate fuel efficiency to reduce fuel costs and fuel stops for road trips.
That is a good looking motor! actually all your motors look good. and by they way your button head bolts on that motor look fantastic would have never thought of that. I think that if you could get enough rotational mass(which you are doing a great job of that right now) that you would actually see better fuel mileage at highway speeds, since the average is 5-7.5%. if you got 23 MPG you would get around 25 MPG. I mean that is an extra 32 miles per tank but I think your actual gas mileage numbers are going to be quite a bit better than that since its going in a car that fully dressed was about 1000 pounds lighter. but what am I telling you this for I'm sure you already know all that
So you used a GT rear for the hatch? I think I'm going to see if I can find a used rear glass (rather than take one off my Camaro lol) and do some looking, I really like the look of it and I think with the right fiberglass mods it could turn into something amazing!
Originally posted by Syn: That is a good looking motor! actually all your motors look good. and by they way your button head bolts on that motor look fantastic would have never thought of that. I think that if you could get enough rotational mass(which you are doing a great job of that right now) that you would actually see better fuel mileage at highway speeds, since the average is 5-7.5%. if you got 23 MPG you would get around 25 MPG. I mean that is an extra 32 miles per tank but I think your actual gas mileage numbers are going to be quite a bit better than that since its going in a car that fully dressed was about 1000 pounds lighter. but what am I telling you this for I'm sure you already know all that
So far, the stock LS4 swaps with the 4t65e-HD seem to be getting about 28-30 MPG on highway. So hopefully fieroguru will be getting at least that. Although, with that enormous cam, he may very likely not. Also not sure what tires he plans on running, but a taller tire will help bring the RPMs down a little.
I'll be trying to get 35+ MPG out of mine; without the AFM.
So far, the stock LS4 swaps with the 4t65e-HD seem to be getting about 28-30 MPG on highway. So hopefully fieroguru will be getting at least that. Although, with that enormous cam, he may very likely not. Also not sure what tires he plans on running, but a taller tire will help bring the RPMs down a little.
I'll be trying to get 35+ MPG out of mine; without the AFM.
yeah, I was using stock numbers in a 3700 pound Impala, just the sheer loss of weight overall and rotational mass I imagine he would get around 25-27 with out DoD so that would be about almost 30 mpg at 7.5% but these figures don't really mean much since it's purely estimation and doesn't take into account the 6 speed cruising Fieroguru is wanting to achieve and like you said tire height will play a role in getting the RPM's down. I don't think 35 would be a unachievable goal, but there is no better way to prove math then by testing it in the real world! Can't wait to see it running and driving.
My blue fiero has always ran 245/45/16's which are 24.6" in diameter, but I really need more tire on the rear. Eventually, I will stuff as wide a wheel back there and probably upgrade to some 17's or 18's in the rear to help further reduce the cruise RPM.
I would love to see 35 mpg with my combo, but would be happy with anything over 30, especially at the whp my combo should produce. The cam is a little on the large side, but given I am targeting a 2850 vehicle weight with the swap, the low gearing in the transmission, minimal frictional losses within the transmission and the smaller frontal area on the fiero, I think it will be just fine. One guy is running the same cam in a Grand Prix and it can still pull itself with DoD turning less RPMs, with taller tires, more weight, more frontal area, and more parasitic transmission losses than I will have.
You guys are getting me all excited to get back to work on this swap, but the 383/Getrag combo must be done first and it is my priority.
You guys are getting me all excited to get back to work on this swap, but the 383/Getrag combo must be done first and it is my priority.
I'd offer to come help you hurry up and get it finished so you could get back on the ls4/f40 but your in Kentucky Speaking of the cam that you have though, did they give you some torque numbers? no so much max torque but just where it is in the power band?
Originally posted by fieroguru: You guys are getting me all excited to get back to work on this swap, but the 383/Getrag combo must be done first and it is my priority.
Haha. Better get that 383 done then! I just got my heads milled, a valve job, and crank cleaned and polished. I need to do some yard work (yay hurricanes) and pick up a few things at HF, but hope to get the block cleaned, and short block back together today/tomorrow.
I guess I have to take that back. Yard work more tedious than I thought it would be, and seather is being finicky today. Most likely will get to it next weekend, or hopefully find time one night this week.
I guess I have to take that back. Yard work more tedious than I thought it would be, and seather is being finicky today. Most likely will get to it next weekend, or hopefully find time one night this week.
That is one of the best things about my current garage... even on 97 degree days (like it was on Saturday) it stays about 75 and on days under 30 degree it stays about 65... as long as I keep the rollup doors shut. I spent the day making braided stainless hoses with AN lines.
In a day or two, the engine/transmission/cradle will come out one last time to finish up the engine bay detailing firewall insulation. Then I need to finish up the harness and the rear merge/muffler area of the exhaust: With stainless heat shields added:
Originally posted by fieroguru: That is one of the best things about my current garage... even on 97 degree days (like it was on Saturday) it stays about 75 and on days under 30 degree it stays about 65... as long as I keep the rollup doors shut
Yeah, the heat wasn't too bad today, but some small rain storms came through. Don't have a lot of room in my garage as it is right now, so would have to pull the car out to work, and don't want to leave it sitting out in the rain. The other necessary chores are the bigger damper though.
was reading some on someone who put a ls4 in their Fiero and it brought up an interesting question, What do you plan to do for the interior? adapting the Fiero interior to accept the new components? or using a newer model dash out of something like a Malibu, Impala, or G6?
was reading some on someone who put a ls4 in their Fiero and it brought up an interesting question, What do you plan to do for the interior? adapting the Fiero interior to accept the new components? or using a newer model dash out of something like a Malibu, Impala, or G6?
Nothing in the interior "must" change to run the LS4 besides adding the electronic throttle pedal. You can add as much from the donor car as you would like, but it isn't a requirement for the swap. For now my fiero interior will remain stockish. A longer term project is to swap out the dash from a 1999 maxima (my wifes car and I like the dash).
Nothing in the interior "must" change to run the LS4 besides adding the electronic throttle pedal. You can add as much from the donor car as you would like, but it isn't a requirement for the swap. For now my fiero interior will remain stockish. A longer term project is to swap out the dash from a 1999 maxima (my wifes car and I like the dash).
its not like the ecotec where you have to have the chipped key? and you don't need main display?
was reading some on someone who put a ls4 in their Fiero and it brought up an interesting question, What do you plan to do for the interior? adapting the Fiero interior to accept the new components? or using a newer model dash out of something like a Malibu, Impala, or G6?
I honestly haven't decided exactly what I'm going to do for mine yet. I want to build a full custom dash, including custom LED gauge displays, but to start with I'll probably use the G8 gauges, and make any necessary custom housing to mount them in the stock Fiero dash.
With all those upgrades on the ls4, what do you think your HP is at the crank? I just got one and was looking to get close to 400 at the crank. Did some searching, but still unsure of what mods to do before the motor goes in.
[This message has been edited by iluvsd619 (edited 09-15-2011).]
With all those upgrades on the ls4, what do you think your HP is at the crank? I just got one and was looking to get close to 400 at the crank. Did some searching, but still unsure of what mods to do before the motor goes in.
I am hoping to see north of 350 whp (which would be about 392 crank hp assuming a 12% drivetrain loss).
I think the biggest problem you're going to run into, is the AFM lifters, and springs if you're using stock on those too.
DoD lifters are stock, but the springs came with the cam kit. Remember, this cam was specifically designed for DoD engines, so the lifters should last a while, especially since it will start out with the lifters locked until I can get DoD to work with the manual. The other LS4 guy running the same cam in his DD with functional DoD hasn't had any lifter issues and he is nearing 2 years since his install.
But yes, the DoD lifters are definitely the weak link. Once the thing is running I am planning to do some MPG comparisons and see what benefit DoD has for my application. Depending on what that shows me, I might purge the DoD hardware and upgrade to the VVT hardware and play with it.
Speaking of the cam that you have though, did they give you some torque numbers? no so much max torque but just where it is in the power band?
