Originally posted by fieroguru: DoD lifters are stock, but the springs came with the cam kit. Remember, this cam was specifically designed for DoD engines, so the lifters should last a while, especially since it will start out with the lifters locked until I can get DoD to work with the manual. The other LS4 guy running the same cam in his DD with functional DoD hasn't had any lifter issues and he is nearing 2 years since his install.
But yes, the DoD lifters are definitely the weak link. Once the thing is running I am planning to do some MPG comparisons and see what benefit DoD has for my application. Depending on what that shows me, I might purge the DoD hardware and upgrade to the VVT hardware and play with it.
Right. But the GP guy is also still on the 4t65e, and I'm not sure the programming in that combination will let him go past 6000. The lifters get weak at just over 6000, around 6200, and you had mentioned wanting to rev past that before. That's why I mentioned it as the only real issue I see with your setup.
I haven't seen any dyno results of his GP either. Does anyone know what the HP/TQ gains are with only that cam in a stock LS4?
You've got the benefits of having the LS7 headers, LS2 intake, and aluminum flywheel with the F40, so should be able to put down more WHP than that GP does anyway, since he's basically stock+cam.
Right. But the GP guy is also still on the 4t65e, and I'm not sure the programming in that combination will let him go past 6000. The lifters get weak at just over 6000, around 6200, and you had mentioned wanting to rev past that before. That's why I mentioned it as the only real issue I see with your setup.
I haven't seen any dyno results of his GP either. Does anyone know what the HP/TQ gains are with only that cam in a stock LS4?
You've got the benefits of having the LS7 headers, LS2 intake, and aluminum flywheel with the F40, so should be able to put down more WHP than that GP does anyway, since he's basically stock+cam.
He has upgraded to something in the 3.6x range of final drives, bumped his rev limiter, and taken the engine up to 7K rpm... it was what started the whole discussion about the installed intake centerline being way too retarded (pun intended). He also was running the LS1 intake and either ported manifolds or DT headers.
If all one did was install the cam with an otherwise stock LS4... probably would be a dog. The cam will give up lowend TQ to make upper RPM power, but the LS4 intake/exhaust will be a significant restriction to any upper RPM power increases... The key to the cam swap on the LS4 is to improve the intake and exhaust flow at the same time.
Originally posted by fieroguru: He has upgraded to something in the 3.6x range of final drives, bumped his rev limiter, and taken the engine up to 7K rpm... it was what started the whole discussion about the installed intake centerline being way too retarded (pun intended). He also was running the LS1 intake and either ported manifolds or DT headers.
If all one did was install the cam with an otherwise stock LS4... probably would be a dog. The cam will give up lowend TQ to make upper RPM power, but the LS4 intake/exhaust will be a significant restriction to any upper RPM power increases... The key to the cam swap on the LS4 is to improve the intake and exhaust flow at the same time.
OK. I'd be very interested to know what his TQ/HP curves look like on the dyno then. If he's revving to 7K consistently, I'd also be very surprised he hasn't blown a lifter or 8. I skimmed through his thread looking for the important bits, but didn't see any dyno numbers anywhere. Do you know if he ever got it dynoed?
He has upgraded to something in the 3.6x range of final drives, bumped his rev limiter, and taken the engine up to 7K rpm... it was what started the whole discussion about the installed intake centerline being way too retarded (pun intended). He also was running the LS1 intake and either ported manifolds or DT headers.
If all one did was install the cam with an otherwise stock LS4... probably would be a dog. The cam will give up lowend TQ to make upper RPM power, but the LS4 intake/exhaust will be a significant restriction to any upper RPM power increases... The key to the cam swap on the LS4 is to improve the intake and exhaust flow at the same time.
I got a free LS1 intake and will do some exhaust mods (not sure what yet) and get rid of the DOD. For me I dont see a big enough boost in mpg to keep it. I would rather rev it to 7000g and swap to a 6 speed. I would guess that the DOD would not see better mpg stock v modified.
Originally posted by Rickady88GT: I got a free LS1 intake and will do some exhaust mods (not sure what yet) and get rid of the DOD. For me I dont see a big enough boost in mpg to keep it. I would rather rev it to 7000g and swap to a 6 speed. I would guess that the DOD would not see better mpg stock v modified.
Nice. Do you have all the info you need to drop the DOD? Does CARB not consider the DOD as "emissions equipment" for inspection? If you need some info about dropping the DOD, send me a PM or ask in my thread. I'm also deleting it on my LS4 (have everything, engine is just still disassembled).
Nice. Do you have all the info you need to drop the DOD? Does CARB not consider the DOD as "emissions equipment" for inspection? If you need some info about dropping the DOD, send me a PM or ask in my thread. I'm also deleting it on my LS4 (have everything, engine is just still disassembled).
Yes the DOD would need to be functional, but I think they would notice the 6 speed manual first? I was just going to drop the DOD by using an LS6 valley cover and cam/lifter set. I want a 6500+ rpm V8 6 speed. For no other reason than the sound and fun of shifting. I never wanted to build a race car, just a fun to drive car.
Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Yes the DOD would need to be functional, but I think they would notice the 6 speed manual first? I was just going to drop the DOD by using an LS6 valley cover and cam/lifter set. I want a 6500+ rpm V8 6 speed. For no other reason than the sound and fun of shifting. I never wanted to build a race car, just a fun to drive car.
You'll want to change the lifters also, and the oil pump and pan. I'm using an LS2 pump, and LS2 Vette pan/pickup/windage tray on my LS4. The LS2 Vette pan has better baffling, and the DOD's need for oil can result in starvation with the stock LS4 pump when you get rid of the DOD hardware. The Vette pan is also shorter, so you get a bit more ground clearance. You'll need an GenIV/LS2 valley cover actually. The LS1/LS6 cover is different. So don't waste your money on it. I got a new LS2 cover complete with new gaskets and bolts for $129, if I'm remembering correctly.
You'll want to change the lifters also, and the oil pump and pan. I'm using an LS2 pump, and LS2 Vette pan/pickup/windage tray on my LS4. The LS2 Vette pan has better baffling, and the DOD's need for oil can result in starvation with the stock LS4 pump when you get rid of the DOD hardware. The Vette pan is also shorter, so you get a bit more ground clearance. You'll need an GenIV/LS2 valley cover actually. The LS1/LS6 cover is different. So don't waste your money on it. I got a new LS2 cover complete with new gaskets and bolts for $129, if I'm remembering correctly.
haven't heard anything in a while, hows it coming?
Still focused on the SBC/Getrag build. I am hoping it makes some noise this weekend, but even if it does I probably will not be back focusing on the LS4/F40 swap until probably Nov 1. I would love to have it running before thanksgiving so I can take it on a road trip, but lots of stuff has to happen before then.
Still focused on the SBC/Getrag build. I am hoping it makes some noise this weekend, but even if it does I probably will not be back focusing on the LS4/F40 swap until probably Nov 1. I would love to have it running before thanksgiving so I can take it on a road trip, but lots of stuff has to happen before then.
nov 1st that's just sad. Your attention to detail is awesome. I'm thinking I'm going to purchase a ls4 I like this weekend, but I'm thinking I should wait until monday.
I'd buy one tomorrow if I could find one in this country!!
awesome work. I'm seriously debating on shipping an LS4 and f23 over here. This thread has shown me a lot that I never would have been able to do on my own.
You'll want to change the lifters also, and the oil pump and pan. I'm using an LS2 pump, and LS2 Vette pan/pickup/windage tray on my LS4. The LS2 Vette pan has better baffling, and the DOD's need for oil can result in starvation with the stock LS4 pump when you get rid of the DOD hardware. The Vette pan is also shorter, so you get a bit more ground clearance. You'll need an GenIV/LS2 valley cover actually. The LS1/LS6 cover is different. So don't waste your money on it. I got a new LS2 cover complete with new gaskets and bolts for $129, if I'm remembering correctly.
I might be showing my ignorance here, but I would think that the ls4 pump would be fine without the dod hardware. It's an upgrade over the stock oil pump right? I don't get the advantage of the ls2 vette oil pan/pickup over the ls4. Especially since the ls2 is for a longitudinal mounted engine and the ls4 pan was specifically designed for the forces that a transverse engine will encounter. I'm very willing to be enlightened.
Originally posted by dratts: I might be showing my ignorance here, but I would think that the ls4 pump would be fine without the dod hardware. It's an upgrade over the stock oil pump right? I don't get the advantage of the ls2 vette oil pan/pickup over the ls4. Especially since the ls2 is for a longitudinal mounted engine and the ls4 pan was specifically designed for the forces that a transverse engine will encounter. I'm very willing to be enlightened.
The LS4 oil pump is a high volume unit and the concern is that if you remove the DoD hardware (which is a oil volume hog, but the oil is quick to drain back into the pan) you could run the risk of pumping the oil pan dry by sending a large about of oil up to the valvetrain.
As for the LS4 oil pan being designed for FWD... if by that you mean designed as a large open unbaffled pan... that is what the LS4 pan is.
Originally posted by dratts: I might be showing my ignorance here, but I would think that the ls4 pump would be fine without the dod hardware. It's an upgrade over the stock oil pump right? I don't get the advantage of the ls2 vette oil pan/pickup over the ls4. Especially since the ls2 is for a longitudinal mounted engine and the ls4 pan was specifically designed for the forces that a transverse engine will encounter. I'm very willing to be enlightened.
As fieroguru mentioned, high volume pump could suck the pan dry, without the DoD hardware. Looking through other forums for various bits of LS-related knowledge, I came across a few posts where people who removed the AFM hardware on the top end to get to the higher RPMs, ended up with oil starvation issues, on the G8/Holdens. So, better safe than sorry, and the oil pump is a cheap/easy change if you're changing cams already anyway.
Also, as fieroguru posted, the Vette LS2 pan has much better baffling inside it than the LS4 pan (which actually has none). Also, the Vette LS2 pan is specifically interesting as it is a low profile pan, as the engine in the 05+ Vettes is mounted lower, so it makes more clearance for getting exhaust by on the front side of the motor if running a full exhaust system.
Thanks guys, I was thinking like fuel pumps that lots is good. I think that I had read a description of an ls4 with an oil pan baffled with the transverse forces in mind. Can't beat pictures though, I believe you guys, and as stated I managed to display my ignorance.
I am going to challenge this oil pump theory. I am sorry but it makes no sense as the engine has a bypass and once oil pressure is reached the rest of the oil is bypassed back into the pan. Unless there is something really wrong with a motor I dont see how it could possible pull all the oil out of your pan and put it some where else .
Originally posted by Kemp3: I am going to challenge this oil pump theory. I am sorry but it makes no sense as the engine has a bypass and once oil pressure is reached the rest of the oil is bypassed back into the pan. Unless there is something really wrong with a motor I dont see how it could possible pull all the oil out of your pan and put it some where else .
Dont believe me talk to a few engines builders .
Oil Pressure and Oil Volume are not the same thing. If it wasn't an issue, then GM would use the same oil pump on the AFM motors, as the non-AFM motors to save the money, but they don't. The pump on the AFM engines displaces 1.26 in³/revolution, while the standard LSx pump displaces 0.95 in³/revolution of oil. That's a pretty big difference. The AFM pump may work fine for you, and if it does, hooray. It's a cheap thing to change (all you have to really change, is the spring in the pump), when you're pulling all the AFM hardware off. The AFM oil pans also have an additional relief valve in the pan itself, which could cause oil to dump back to the sump, when needed up top, on a non-AFM motor.
GM puts all this stuff on the AFM cars for a reason, and they don't put it on the non-AFM cars for a reason. Better to build the engine to the appropriate manufacturer design specs, than to risk potential problems, especailly when the changes are so easy to make. GM spent millions to research, design, and build the AFM/DoD system on these cars, so there's no need to ask an engine builder. We aren't building classic small/big block race engines here, where slightly different rules would hold true.
The LS4/F40 swap will now get an additional upgrade... switching from 12" to 13" brake rotors with a new brake rotor kit/design.
I have found a 13" rotor that based on the rotor specs should retain the 88 calipers and has a mounting depth that is slightly shallower than the current C4 12" rotors to avoid the lower A-arm rubbing, but not as shallow as the Viper 13" rotor that needs 8 caliper brackets. My setup will only need 4 caliper brackets (similar to the fieroaddiction 12" brackets), 4 concentric rings and 4 13" rotors that can be purchased for under $50 each... The rotors are also very close to the Viper rotor weight.
The LS4/F40 swap will now get an additional upgrade... switching from 12" to 13" brake rotors with a new brake rotor kit/design.
I have found a 13" rotor that based on the rotor specs should retain the 88 calipers and has a mounting depth that is slightly shallower than the current C4 12" rotors to avoid the lower A-arm rubbing, but not as shallow as the Viper 13" rotor that needs 8 caliper brackets. My setup will only need 4 caliper brackets (similar to the fieroaddiction 12" brackets), 4 concentric rings and 4 13" rotors that can be purchased for under $50 each... The rotors are also very close to the Viper rotor weight.
The LS4/F40 swap will now get an additional upgrade... switching from 12" to 13" brake rotors with a new brake rotor kit/design.
I have found a 13" rotor that based on the rotor specs should retain the 88 calipers and has a mounting depth that is slightly shallower than the current C4 12" rotors to avoid the lower A-arm rubbing, but not as shallow as the Viper 13" rotor that needs 8 caliper brackets. My setup will only need 4 caliper brackets (similar to the fieroaddiction 12" brackets), 4 concentric rings and 4 13" rotors that can be purchased for under $50 each... The rotors are also very close to the Viper rotor weight.
I will be looking for this too. Would be a great contribution
The LS4/F40 swap will now get an additional upgrade... switching from 12" to 13" brake rotors with a new brake rotor kit/design.
I have found a 13" rotor that based on the rotor specs should retain the 88 calipers and has a mounting depth that is slightly shallower than the current C4 12" rotors to avoid the lower A-arm rubbing, but not as shallow as the Viper 13" rotor that needs 8 caliper brackets. My setup will only need 4 caliper brackets (similar to the fieroaddiction 12" brackets), 4 concentric rings and 4 13" rotors that can be purchased for under $50 each... The rotors are also very close to the Viper rotor weight.
Ordered 1 of the 13" rotors today so I can start comparing its actual specs to the stock 88 rotor and the C4 12" rotor. It will also allow me to make a single bracket and test fit on the front of one of my 88's to confirm clearance to the lower a-arm and my 16" Millie Miglia wheels.
Caliper was then slid over the rotor surface and the whole thing installed in a 16x7 wheel. There is about 1/8" clearance between the caliper body (resting on the rotor) and the wheel. So if I split the difference there will be about 1/32" clearance between the rotor/caliper and caliper/wheel... but they do fit... at least on the wheels I have for both my 88's.
They even clear the stick on wheel weights, but I will probably start using the clamp type weights on the back side:
Here is a good evolution of brake rotors for 88 Fieros... Stock 88: 12" Vette Rotor: 13" fieroguru Rotor:
This is for both my 88's (LS4 and 4.3), the Mera has 15" wheels and this upgrade will not fit.
Here is a comparison of the C4, stock 88 and the 13" rotors:
The bracket to mount the caliper is very similar to C4 brake setup:
Rotor/caliper and wheel back together to confirm fitment... and it does fit, just some slight contact with the wheel weight that can be relocated to the wheel lip:
Then the moment of truth... will the rotor clear the lower a-arm for its full range of motion. To check this, I took a spare lower a-rm and bolted it to the upright. Then using the mechanical limits of the lower ball joint, the lower a-arm was moved all around trying to make contact and it just was not possible. In fact in the tightest position I was able to pass a large washer between the a-arm nose and the rotor. The reduced depth and the larger rotor diameter work together to eliminate any chance of interference when using stock lower ball joints (the non-lowering kind).
I already have the autocad prints for the bracket (slightly different shape than the mock up one) and rings and will be sending them out to a couple of places for quotes. Since none of my 88's are currently drivable, the first set will be given to a PFF member for free to install/test on their 88. I have already chosen this person and they have agreed to test, so I do not need any more volunteers...
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-28-2011).]
that's just sad. Your attention to detail is awesome. I'm thinking I'm going to purchase a ls4 I like this weekend, but I'm thinking I should wait until monday.
