The rack is offset toward the driver's side, making the extension on the driver's side shorter. Conversely, this makes the extension on the passenger side longer. Then you're having to "clearance" the opening in the firewall (appears to be the left side of the hole, from the pic) to make room for the relocated steering shaft. Why not move the whole rack to the right, just a bit? Is something in the way? Obviously I'm missing something.
Edit - Checking the pics again, it looks like one of the hydraulic lines is very near the right side clamp. By moving the assembly to the right and snaking the clamp under the line, would that make the offset just as far off, in the other direction?
The rack is offset toward the driver's side, making the extension on the driver's side shorter. Conversely, this makes the extension on the passenger side longer. Then you're having to "clearance" the opening in the firewall (appears to be the left side of the hole, from the pic) to make room for the relocated steering shaft. Why not move the whole rack to the right, just a bit? Is something in the way? Obviously I'm missing something.
Edit - Checking the pics again, it looks like one of the hydraulic lines is very near the right side clamp. By moving the assembly to the right and snaking the clamp under the line, would that make the offset just as far off, in the other direction?
This is just how I chose to do it. One of my goals was to have a totally stock front spare tire tub fit over the rack. If you look at some of the pics of the tire tub installed over the rack you will notice that I don't have room to move the rack over any further than it already is. But if some one else does this swap they could move the rack any were they want. They will just have to cut into the tire tub.
I don't see any adverse effects from the offset rack. The rack end adapters are made to center the rack ends so the tie rods are in the stock Fiero location. In fact the suspension geometry is totally stock after the conversion. A brand new set of Fiero inner and outer tie rod ends will bolt rite up to the adapters.
The amount of clearance needed is VERRY little. The manufacturing tolerances between cars may vary, so some cars may not even need it. If the shaft were at such a bad position I could just relocate the rack just a bit. But it is just so minor that I did not bother.
This sounds like the best power rack yet. What engines are you running in these power steering cars? I'm curious if you're using something that comes with a power steering pump, or having to add one.
I'm considering a V8 swap, but I definitely want power steering. If I use an Archie kit, that means adding a power steering pump to the setup.
This 88GT will get power steering and a smog legal 3800SC. The engine comes with a pump. BUT I plan on adding a pump to the stock 2.8 5 speed for a little while to see how the totally stock Fiero works with power steering, then do the swap.
I'm wondering how "hefty" an electric pump would have to be. I kind of like the idea of not having to mess with an engine driven pump, and all the associated plumbing and belts.
This 88GT will get power steering and a smog legal 3800SC. The engine comes with a pump. BUT I plan on adding a pump to the stock 2.8 5 speed for a little while to see how the totally stock Fiero works with power steering, then do the swap.
Cool. I'll be interested to see how you add the pump. I may do that so I can get the steering done first before I do the engine swap - that way I'm not trying to do everything all at once.
I'm wondering how "hefty" an electric pump would have to be. I kind of like the idea of not having to mess with an engine driven pump, and all the associated plumbing and belts.
The electric pump "sounds" like the best idea. But in my opinion it is not. From what I have seen others do, the electric pump is not going to work out as good as a mechanical pump. GM did not do the electric pump because it added extra cost to a car that already cost to much at the time. I guess it could be done, but for now the most reliable system is a mechanical pump. I am working on a belt driven pump for the stock 2.8 V6. I would rather deal with some brackets belt and hydro line than try to figure out how to make an electric pump turn on and off reliably, consistently, seamlessly, quietly and do all this and last for 20 years. You have to ask your self "Why did GM take so long to use EHPS in cars?" It is more complex (less parts but the parts used are much more complex) and the controls needed to run it properly are more expensive. In fact the ONLY reason GM is using it now is to "increase fuel economy" And that is so minute that it is more of a sales (EPA) scam than real money saved.
Originally posted by Rickady88GT: The electric pump "sounds" like the best idea. But in my opinion it is not. ...You have to ask your self "Why did GM take so long to use EHPS in cars?"
True. Good point.
One thing I just happened to remember... The MR2 uses an electric pump for its power steering system. All of the engineering has already been done.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-24-2006).]
1)For this conversion is it required that the front subframe be extracted from the car as you did, or in your opinion is the extra work in doing this just more than made up over the effort of working from the underside?
2)From your observations of the Chevette racks, would the same procedure be required for a Chevette rack?
I plan on a power rack once my N* is in my 88GT - I have left the pump on the engine for this purpose. I'm thinking the car might be a little too squirly for any aggressive driving without it. Your installation is very appealing although the front subframe removal doesn't excite me, thus the questions. Please update us on the "twitchyness" of the ride when you are complete.
I'm not too swift on suspension and steering geometry, but your PS project has inspired me to follow suit. But what about "Bump Steer"; the change in steering direction (or lack there of) caused by the up and down motion of the front suspension. I have heard a lot of concern about this on the forum.
My question (and please correct me if I am wrong): If you located the ends of your new steering rack in the same 3D point as a stock rack, then there will be no change in bump steer.? And this is why you built adapters to extend you steering rack to the same 3D point as a stock rack, rather than a custom length tie rod?
my steering in my 86 was a dream, good road feel and other than the obvious very-low-speed steering effort required, the only fault i found was at very high speeds i got front end lift, making the steering very light (and unsafe). that, however, is remedied by a front lip to increase front downforce. i admit i have the stock GT wheels, and slightly smaller-than-stock tires (195/60/15 all the way around, i was not too happy when i saw the previous owner had done that)
also i'd be a little hesitant to put power steering (especially and extremely tight one like the ZR1) in a car that is prone to oversteer already, like MR cars are. i've seen my fair share of MR2's spinning out into the center divide because they jerked the wheel a little too much... ------------------ 1986 Fiero GT- Under Reconstruction 1989 Honda CRX- DD, beater/bucket
[This message has been edited by Jermz238 (edited 01-24-2006).]
The MR2 uses an electric pump for its power steering system. All of the engineering has already been done.
I have seen that in the electric pump threads. But getting the pump to run under a said speed and then turn off at a said speed is the problem. It is not as simple as it sounds. Should the pump "ramp up" and "ramp down" so you don't feel the sudden rush of assist or loss of assist at that limit? If the pump turns off at, lets say 12mph it should should not turn on again tell some were around 10mph so the pump does not send that boost on-off-on-off-on-off feeling in a traffic jamb or parking lot at 12mph. I could go on about the complexities of it but the bottom line is that it can be done, but that does not mean it is easier or better than a mechanical pump. I would love a EHPS system for all my cars, but for now I will just work on finding the best rack. Then maybe the search for a better pump?
1)For this conversion is it required that the front subframe be extracted from the car as you did, or in your opinion is the extra work in doing this just more than made up over the effort of working from the underside?
2)From your observations of the Chevette racks, would the same procedure be required for a Chevette rack?
I plan on a power rack once my N* is in my 88GT - I have left the pump on the engine for this purpose. I'm thinking the car might be a little too squirly for any aggressive driving without it. Your installation is very appealing although the front subframe removal doesn't excite me, thus the questions. Please update us on the "twitchyness" of the ride when you are complete.
1) Yes ,..and No. Yes I "needed" to take the front end out because I am actually "R&Ding" the system from scratch. I also am rebuilding the entire front end with new bushings, springs, shocks, inner and outer tie rods, sway bar links, ball joints and rack. So after all the work it should look new too so I cleaned and painted it also. BUT for some people that don't need to do all the rebuilding, I guess they could just do it in the car? This is not the first power steering system I have done, It is my third. And from what I have done, I would say that it is better to take out the front end. Heck the front end is easy to take out and put in. I think I could have the front end out of a car in an Hour? under two for sure.
2) Yes, for the most part. The Chevette rack is VERRY short and will need lengthy adapters, like the Corvette if you want to keep the geometry "safe" *my opinion* I don't like the Chevette rack and would not put one in any of my cars because for the effort that goes into such a swap the payback is very little.
"twichyness"......I drive an 88GT with a Camaro SS ws6 power steering rack in it. The ratio of the "F" body rack is VERY fast. I LOVE IT. I never got in a jamb or in trouble because of the fast ratio. In fact my 2002 Olds Intrigue has a steering ratio even faster than the Camaro SS You just get used to it, anything less just SUX. Drive the car with the respect it deserves and you will be OK. Know your car and know its limits. I never spun my Fiero, and yes I have driven it HARD. The car is so solid that at 112mph I can let go of the wheel (NEVER DO THIS IT IS STUPID) and it it will track like a train. The entire suspension set up will be the "life or death" of the handling of your car. If the car feels strange, you may have a problem and should get it fixed. But the fast steering ratio is of no concern with me.
I'm not too swift on suspension and steering geometry, but your PS project has inspired me to follow suit. But what about "Bump Steer"; the change in steering direction (or lack there of) caused by the up and down motion of the front suspension. I have heard a lot of concern about this on the forum.
My question (and please correct me if I am wrong): If you located the ends of your new steering rack in the same 3D point as a stock rack, then there will be no change in bump steer.? And this is why you built adapters to extend you steering rack to the same 3D point as a stock rack, rather than a custom length tie rod?
Yes the bump steer is a problem for people that just drop a rack in and let it fly. In my case the bump steer would be even worse because I off set the rack over to the driver side by a substantial amount. This would cause one wheel to have a MUCH more radical bump steer curve than the other side of the car. So this is why I made adapters for the conversion. After it is all installed, the stock 88 Fiero suspension will have totally stock geomitry but converted to power assist with a faster ratio. One of my goals with this rack was to NOT change any of the factory geometry. So for any one that wants to do this swap like I did all you have to do is take very good measurements of the stock rack and its exact location on the Xmember before you take it off (even take pics of the rack) Then put the new rack in the same exact location with respect to the steering spool. The steering spool should be in the stock location and the rest of the rack will fall in line. Make sure that the center line of the rack gear is in the same exact plane as the stock Fiero rack. Then work on the mounts. After you got the rack mounted you can install the adapters and stock Fiero tie rods. NEVER use custom length tie rods with stock street car suspension. That will cause bump steer. I worked just about every thing out on paper first, then started fabing. So far I have not redone or changed any part of the swap that I had planed out.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-25-2006).]
my steering in my 86 was a dream, good road feel and other than the obvious very-low-speed steering effort required, the only fault i found was at very high speeds i got front end lift, making the steering very light (and unsafe). that, however, is remedied by a front lip to increase front downforce. i admit i have the stock GT wheels, and slightly smaller-than-stock tires (195/60/15 all the way around, i was not too happy when i saw the previous owner had done that)
also i'd be a little hesitant to put power steering (especially and extremely tight one like the ZR1) in a car that is prone to oversteer already, like MR cars are. i've seen my fair share of MR2's spinning out into the center divide because they jerked the wheel a little too much...
I don't "feel" any front end lift with my car. The lift is caused by the cooling air ducted thru the radiator and back under the car. Nuder the hood of the car the air cant get out fast enough so it pushes up on the large surface aria of the hood and "lifts" the car at high speed. If you have this problem you should give the air a route to escape. I vented my front compartment in 5 places to get the high pressure out from under the car. I put two vents in each headlight bucket to let the air out thru the wheel wells and fender vents. This is a great idea because the air is not forced back under the car. The vented air is sent out the sides of the car and that will prevent pressure under the car. Then I also have the hood vents. I have NEVER had a problem with "lift" My car feels like a rock at all speeds.
I have driven Fieros for a long time and have only spun once. It was my fault and it was an 87GT and had nothing to do with the "over steer" I just down shifted one gear to low and the rear wheels compression stoped and lost traction around a corner.
My 88GT has a very fast steering ratio (WS6 "F" Body power steering) and is a blast to drive. The rack takes 2.25 turns lock to lock and has NEVER seemed twitchy. The Vette rack is faster but I don't have any reason to think it will be a problem. How many stories have you heard of where people spun out in their Olds Intrigue because they jerked the wheel to much? My Olds Intrigue has a VERRY fast ratio steering rack ( why, I don't know) and I have never heard stories of them being a problem? The problem is that people just don't have the skill to drive the cars that " are prone to over steer" They need to get to know the car before they push the limits. If you just jump in and go balls out in a car you don't know very well, you are asking for a wreck.
The lift is caused by the cooling air ducted thru the radiator and back under the car. Nuder the hood of the car the air cant get out fast enough so it pushes up on the large surface aria of the hood and "lifts" the car at high speed. If you have this problem you should give the air a route to escape. I vented my front compartment in 5 places to get the high pressure out from under the car. I put two vents in each headlight bucket to let the air out thru the wheel wells and fender vents. This is a great idea because the air is not forced back under the car. The vented air is sent out the sides of the car and that will prevent pressure under the car.
very true, i've had someone tell me this before, thanks for the reminder.
quote
How many stories have you heard of where people spun out in their Olds Intrigue because they jerked the wheel to much? My Olds Intrigue has a VERRY fast ratio steering rack ( why, I don't know) and I have never heard stories of them being a problem? The problem is that people just don't have the skill to drive the cars that " are prone to over steer" They need to get to know the car before they push the limits. If you just jump in and go balls out in a car you don't know very well, you are asking for a wreck.
how many oldsmobile intrigues are on an MR platform? FF cars have a nasty habit of understeering, so its rather hard to spin out. that is part of the reason why Jane Q Citizen likes FWD, they are VERY forgiving about crappy drivers, as long as you dont try to deliberately spin the car (and even then its not that easy, being a Honda owner/driver). No, FF cars are much more liable to just slam head-on into something then to spin out.
agreed on the problem, many people do try to drive like they are Vin Diesel or Paul Walker before they even get the feel for their cars, and thats tragic but Darwin always gets his man.
Possible dumb question, but can a power steering rack be used without the power part? Could someone who just wants a better ratio do this and cap off the hydraulic inputs and outputs on the rack and use it as a manual rack, or does the fluid also lubricate the PS rack or something?
Possible dumb question, but can a power steering rack be used without the power part? Could someone who just wants a better ratio do this and cap off the hydraulic inputs and outputs on the rack and use it as a manual rack, or does the fluid also lubricate the PS rack or something?
The power steering rack is VERRRY hard to steer without the engine running. I drove Bob's V8 Ferrari kit with huge front tires on a stock manual rack pre88 Fiero and that was easier to turn than my "F" body power rack without the assist of the pump. So to answer your question, Yes you could do it for the faster ratio. But No it is not worth it. If you do all the work for a rack swap then the pump should be done too.
I have let several people drive my 3.5 S* Fiero to show them how the power steering feels. All of them liked it, it really does feel natural. In the parking lot the power steering is smooth and "modern" feeling but not Caddy easy like some may think. My car feels very "normal" for a power assisted sports car. Then you get it on the road and the fast steering ratio is a welcome upgrade. It feels like the car is on auto pilot. The car responds perfectly to my commands with less effort on my part, and I mean less turning of the wheel. The actual effort to turn the wheel even at high speed feels normal to me, not at all like it has to much assist. I know this is hard to explain, so that is why I let others drive the car and see for themselves how it feels. You almost got to drive it too, didn't you? I think we ran out of time or something like that at the last San Simeon, West Fest, or Coast Run? Heck just ask me next time we get together for a ride and you will see what I mean. The funny thing is that the first rack I did in someone else's car, he refused to test drive my car first to see if he likes how it feels. He has been in my car several times even at triple digits, but he refused to drive it for himself. Now his 88GT has power steering and he LOVES it. But his front wheels are larger than most Fiero's rear wheels
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-27-2006).]
Nope, met up with you at a bunch of events, but haven't driven your car yet. Always wondered how that S* performed. I'll have to give it a try next time I see you.
The reason I asked is that I have a 3.4 set up like the stock 2.8, which means no PS pump or really any good way to add one. I'm sure that even if I found one, CARB would decide its illegal with my engine or something ridiculous like that. I'd like a better ratio, but it looks like I'm going to have to live with it, unless someone comes up with new internals for the stock rack that will lower the ratio, but I doubt that very much.
Today I got the custom rack end adapters. They are made of Molly because the mild steel may be to soft for the close tolerance of the left side. So to be on the safe side the adapters were made of a stronger metal. Most of the rebuild parts are in from the Fiero Store and Rodney Dickman to do a TOTAL rebuild of the front end. As of this stage of the conversion/front end rebuild I am into this for about $400.00. I do not have the shocks or springs yet and the lower rubber bushings and sway bar bushings will be reused. If I can find the new lower A arm bushings and sway bar bushings I get them?
This is the first set of adapters I got from the machine shop. If I have any more made I will make some changes to them and maybe sell them? I made this set so the stock plastic internal bump stop can be used, you just take them off of the old rack and put them on the adapters. Or I could just have some new custom bump stops made.
The adapters are for the 84-94 Vette racks.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 05-03-2006).]
Rick - what year of Camaro is your F body rack from? My yard guy her in Thunder Bay doesn't have one and would bring one in through his network, but it has to be the correct one. By his lisings, those cars had 2 steering system codes. Also, is there a different amount of assist for a 6 vrs 8 cyl car being that they are front engine cars? I would like the to achieve the 2.25 ratio (I'm too chicken for the the 2.0 Corvette ratio) and maintain the road feel you describe, but need some help identifying the correct doner car. thanks- Dave.
Rick - what year of Camaro is your F body rack from? My yard guy her in Thunder Bay doesn't have one and would bring one in through his network, but it has to be the correct one. By his lisings, those cars had 2 steering system codes. Also, is there a different amount of assist for a 6 vrs 8 cyl car being that they are front engine cars? I would like the to achieve the 2.25 ratio (I'm too chicken for the the 2.0 Corvette ratio) and maintain the road feel you describe, but need some help identifying the correct doner car. thanks- Dave.
Any F body rack from an LS1 V8 will work. Dont use the V6 rack
Rick, I'm rebuilding my front suspension now, and I am anxious to hear how this rack worked out for ya. Do you now prefer this rack over the FBody rack you did? Is the 2.0 rack twitchy at all? Any problem with the decreased turning radius? Am I correct in understanding that the FBody rack did not clear the spare tub, but this Corvette rack did? Finally, do you have a part number for this rack?
Rick, I'm rebuilding my front suspension now, and I am anxious to hear how this rack worked out for ya. Do you now prefer this rack over the FBody rack you did? Is the 2.0 rack twitchy at all? Any problem with the decreased turning radius? Am I correct in understanding that the FBody rack did not clear the spare tub, but this Corvette rack did? Finally, do you have a part number for this rack?
Beautiful work, and many thanks!
I did not finish the rack yet. But I don't expect any problem with the fast ratio. The 88Fiero will not suffer from a slight decrease in turning radius. If you put larger wheels on the 88, they could rub if you turn to far, so that is no worry for me. The F body rack has less travel and the decrease in turning radius is a none issue. I can make a U turn on my street with out doing a three point turn.
The only numbers I see on the rack are 36008290? It is kind of hard to read but that is what the cast in number looks like. And this rack is 2 turns lock to lock. The inner tie rods are the steering rack stops and only allow the steering wheel to turn 2 turns lock to lock total. The ratio of this rack is very fast.
hi guys; following these threads with great interest andputting together parts now disassembeling a 01 camaro rack v8. got the boots off .stops backed off and now do i just twist off the ends with a big wrench or is there a dif procedure to get them off?
follow up question..is there any reason why i cant just shorten the camaro inners and just run threads up the 4inches and use the camaro tie ends?? thanx; clynt
hellbentkrusty, you might be able to get away with that but if you do than the inner tie rod ball joint will be closer to the center of the car than original, throwing off the suspension geometry, this will affect your bumpsteer, (i think it might reduce it but i'm not sure), anyhow when i did mine i did not want to mess around to much with changing the geometry. hope that answers your question
I'm Rickady's wife, after a very long day out and about he just isn't feeling well so he will have to get back with you as soon as he is feeling better.
Oh, and Mcaanda, I'll send you an email so you don't feel denied. lol
hi guys; following these threads with great interest andputting together parts now disassembeling a 01 camaro rack v8. got the boots off .stops backed off and now do i just twist off the ends with a big wrench or is there a dif procedure to get them off?
follow up question..is there any reason why i cant just shorten the camaro inners and just run threads up the 4inches and use the camaro tie ends?? thanx; clynt
Don't confuse the "F" body rack with the Vette rack. The "F" body rack is longer than the Vette rack. The Vette rack is the one that needs the long adapters.
"F" body adapters
Vette adapters
You cant reuse the tie rod ends from the Camaro/Firebird because the rack is offset to the driver side. This would cause a very bad bump steer problem if you just cut new threads on the tie rod ends and reused them in the Fiero. One side would have a radically different bump steer curve than the other. So to get the tie rods off, I put one inner tie rod in a big vise and used a huge wrench on the other tie rod and broke them loose. I did not want to stress the pinion gear by clamping the rack body and twisting off the inner tie rod ends.
You just get used to it, anything less just SUX. Drive the car with the respect it deserves and you will be OK. Know your car and know its limits. I never spun my Fiero, and yes I have driven it HARD. The car is so solid that at 112mph I can let go of the wheel (NEVER DO THIS IT IS STUPID) and it it will track like a train.
