quote Originally posted by Yarmouth Fiero: I had considered gears but keeping it all lubricated would require building fully enclosed gearboxes. The belts do not require any lubrication.

use the gear boxes from a VW bus they are enclosed units

I don't really know much about VW's bubbajoexxx. I'll have to do a little research on that for sure.

Spent some time today working on notching the upper frame rails, similar to what Blooz has already completed. This is necessary as the finished car will be much lower and even though the track has been widened, the inner edge of the tire is going to impinge on the space occupied by the upper frame rail. My goal is to have 3 1/2" of clearance which should be enough as I'll only have a maximum suspension travel of 3". I started with the drivers side and once I marked out the arc through the rail, it was a quick cut with the jigsaw. I decided to notch the frame rail completely though to the inside surface as I wanted to remove the inner flange in an effort to ensure my strut had plenty of room in it's new wide track position. Once cut, I basically capped the notch on the bottom as well as the inside and outside faces of the upper frame rail with 1/8" plate. I extended the inner surface upward enough to form the surface that the new strut tower will be fastened to. It's all just tacked together at this time.

Here are a few drawings of the arrangement.







And here are a couple pictures of the drivers side cut out and the new pieces fitted in place and tacked together.

here are a few pics of some units

Happy Remembrance Day and thank you to all the men and women who have served our country and continue to serve today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6A1QQS3hgQ

quote Originally posted by bubbajoexxx:

What is the gear ratio of the units in the upper two pictures? If they are 1:1 then they are exactly what I was thinking of. Any idea what torque they can handle?

They look like the casing is slightly oblong, similar to the bottom picture which appears to have a 1 : 1.25 ratio ( depending on which is the input shaft )

yes and if you use them correctly it will give you a final drive of 3.35 to 1

Holy crap Graham... I had to bump your thread up from something like #25! At least I have a legitimate excuse for being #24 (and now taking your former place at #25). What's going on in Yarmouth?

Hey Blooz. I've been busy working on the notch and reinforcement of the upper passenger side frame rail as well as finalizing some design work for the new strut towers. I've also been doing some design work around the LS1 and Audi gearbox as well as working out the basic design for the new engine cradle. On a positive note, I ran my dual drive belt design by a close engineer friend who builds dragsters and he thinks the idea has merit ( assuming the belts do what they claim )

To be honest, I have been a little hesitant to post any progress updates knowing you were home laid up in bed for a few months, unable to get out in your shop.

It didn't happen unless there are pictures!

[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 11-24-2014).]

Here is Sam's car Blooz. He raced in the 60's and 70's and just spent the last 5 years restoring it for racing. I think the body exterior is still stock.

This was taken at Greenfield this summer.

Have you ruled out Subaru transaxles? The front diff can be spooled to the output shaft easily enough, and they have a strong aftermarket.

I hate to put down any ideas, but I think there is gonna be a struggle with audi or subaru transmissions, without using the belt idea he is talking about.

I am working on a diablo replica, 10" stretch or so, for a local guy and I am working on putting a 5.3 iron block LS motor in front of a subaru 4 speed auto, and not only is it almost too long from fire wall to axle length, it takes up all of the room after the cradle to the back of the body too. This is all based on the adapter plate I had made and the lengths I measured, sadly I haven't test fit it yet

Chris

Lately, I have been working on the new strut towers, lower frame rails and boxing in my engine bay to make everything suitably strong enough to support an eventual longitudinal LS1 and Audi Transmission. As I mentioned, the intake manifold on the LS1 will have to be reversed to allow some form of intake plenum that isn't coming through the firewall. As it often happens, Blooz's build has sparked an idea for my project related to how to get the air from the door scoops into the engine bay and eventually the engine. Due to the fact that I have added structural members to reinforce my rockers to compensate for the roof being removed, I am not able to add the radiators in the scoops like Blooz is doing. However, I have given some thought to ducting the side scoop air into the engine and here is a very rough conceptual drawing showning both side scoops feeding air filter boxes prior to being plumbed to the engine intake manifold. Keep in mind that at this stage, its just an exercise to map out a possible ducting route. The engine shown is still a SBC and the intake filter boxes, scoop plenums and ducting are just random geometric shapes of approximate dimensions. But its a starting point.

Me likey! It's reminiscent of the way the 348 runs it's intake plumbing:



I'm 99% certain that the F355 convertibles get the intake air from a "Y" branch in the radiator shroud, upstream of the radiators, so your idea is close to the way it done on the actual cars.

Thanks for the feedback and pics of the 348 Blooz. I am sure there is an opportunity to make an attractive yet functional ducting system for my car. Looking at the 348 pic you posted, I notice the open strut towers. That certainly raises and interesting possibility....... before I complete my final welding.

edit to add: I am also questioning the design of my strut tower gussets. I am just not happy with my design at all. In their current form, they are heavy and inefficient, so for now I am leaving them out in lieu of something better. Perhaps some functional cross bracing like the 348.

[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 12-07-2014).]

If I'm not mistaken, those cross braces serve double duty: to triangulate the strut "towers", and to support the transmission from the top side.

Very cool pictures Blooz. I will certainly glean some inspiration from them.

Edit: I hope your client won't mind you stripping the rear end out of their car so you could take a picture for me.

[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 12-07-2014).]

Loving this thread; thanks for posting! Great ideas and discussion.
Questions for you - and if this info is already in the thread I missed it, my bad - have you considered inboard shocks at all?
What items are' carved in stone' for you, with respect to suspension, engine and transmission; ie already bought and you will not budge on those items, or similar fixed approach.. anything?
From what I can tell you have your final ride height and widths sorted out and now are trying to come up with something that works in that space - would that be fairly accurate? So right now anything flies?
Again, thanks for sharing!
GP

Thanks 85-308. With regard to the rear suspension and brakes, I have purchased QA1 coilovers and Wilwood 13" rotors and hats. I have not selected calipers yet as I am still researching piston area suitable for this car. I have purchased 18" Drag wheels for the rear with Dunlop rubber. With regard to the engine and gearbox, I am really leaning toward a longitudinal setup and as such, have dropped the 350 SBC for an LS1 mainly because the intake is easily reversible and thus I can tuck the engine in close behind the firewall. I am also looking seriously at the Audi 01E gearbox as it has been mated to an LS1 in the past by other builders. Also, by going longitudinal, I should be able to install 180 degree headers a little more easily. I am pretty confident the belt drive is going to work which will solve many of the drive shaft alignment issues. As well, as I have mentioned, I will do a custom rear subframe and once this design is further developed, I'll finalize the rear control arms. I decided a while back to stick with traditional coilovers rather than inboard suspension simply because I do not feel comfortable with suspension design and felt the coilovers with a lowered and widened track would meet my performance needs.

Thanks for your questions. I'll try to get some updates on the project shortly. I have a lot of the material cut, fitted and tacked. I'm just backlogged on my final welding as I have that done by a certified welder.

quote Originally posted by Yarmouth Fiero: Thanks 85-308. With regard to the rear suspension and brakes, I have purchased QA1 coilovers and Wilwood 13" rotors and hats. I have not selected calipers yet as I am still researching piston area suitable for this car. I have purchased 18" Drag wheels for the rear with Dunlop rubber. With regard to the engine and gearbox, I am really leaning toward a longitudinal setup and as such, have dropped the 350 SBC for an LS1 mainly because the intake is easily reversible and thus I can tuck the engine in close behind the firewall. I am also looking seriously at the Audi 01E gearbox as it has been mated to an LS1 in the past by other builders. Also, by going longitudinal, I should be able to install 180 degree headers a little more easily. I am pretty confident the belt drive is going to work which will solve many of the drive shaft alignment issues. As well, as I have mentioned, I will do a custom rear subframe and once this design is further developed, I'll finalize the rear control arms. I decided a while back to stick with traditional coilovers rather than inboard suspension simply because I do not feel comfortable with suspension design and felt the coilovers with a lowered and widened track would meet my performance needs. Thanks for your questions. I'll try to get some updates on the project shortly. I have a lot of the material cut, fitted and tacked. I'm just backlogged on my final welding as I have that done by a certified welder.

Looking forward to it! Your LSx and 01E choices are exactly the same as where I am at for my next project. Right now they look great. For what it is worth, the LS4 is a bit shorter due to the crank and front end accessories, but it has the metric bell housing bolt pattern, so I don't know how hard it might be to bolt/adapt to the 01E. Also it has the starter mounted on the (auto) trans so that has to be accomplished. It might save a bit of longitudinal overall length is all. Do you have a transaxle source yet? I have had great response to my questions from Scott at Advanced Automotion in Texas; they sell FWD version 01E transaxles, rebuilt for heavy duty (or heavier duty, anyway) and 'off the record' - I guess, without specific testing(?) - they suggest these should be capable of holding up to 600 ft lbs under street (intermittent abuse) and about 450-ish ft lbs under racing/constant abuse. Prices seemed very reasonable to me for this kind of capability!

First tho I need to finish my LS4/F40 project! I don't want to restart again on it. That would be .... ummm... too many times to count?!?!?

I have been looking at the Advanced Automotion products as well, especially with the Wavetrac differential. I think that will be key to making my belt drive work. For the LSI I have been looking at Turn Key Powertrain for an LS1 crate engine with computer and harness.

I have not contacted either of them yet but I'll likely pull the trigger on the gearbox before the engine.

Well, today we finally got some welding done. My daughter's boyfriend is a very skilled welder and he has been completing all the critical welds for me.



The lower frame rails, strut towers and upper frame rail notch reinforcement are all welded final and ready for assembly on the chassis. Its takes a lot of effort to assemble everything and make sure along the way that everything remains true and straight. I don't want this project tracking towards the ditch or centerline unexpectantly.

Merry Christmas and wishes of health and happiness to all.

In an effort to ward off turkey brain, I spent the day completing the final fitting of the passenger side strut tower and engine bay side enclosure. The new structure ties the upper and lower frame rails together along their entire length creating one large longitudinal beam. Once the driver side structure is complete, together with the stock rear transverse frame of the upper frame rails and the additional rear transverse frame on the lower frames rails, as well as the firewall / rollover hoop transverse frame, the entire structure will form a complete boxed structure surrounding the entire engine bay. As well, the future custom designed and built engine cradle will add additional stiffness to the rear structure, all in an effort to handle the proposed 400 hp LS1 and Audi gearbox.

Before final welding, I'll sandblast and prime all the individual pieces. Here are a few images of the design and the actual parts.

Those panels look really nice and smooth! Is that 16ga material?
Looks like they are thicker than they need to be and heavier than they could be. My only concern would be the added weight in the rear.

Hi Fieroguru

All the material for the strut tower and engine bay plating is 1/8" plate. While it does look heavy, the strut towers are actually about 4 lbs lighter that the stock pieces. With regard to the engine bay plating, I expect to still be under stock weight considering I have removed all the trunk material as well as the stock sheet metal from the engine bay side plating. Also, while the pieces look big and heavy, the actual parts are barely 3 sqft of plate per side. Now, my lower frame rails are a few pounds heavier per side than the stock pieces but I'm willing to gain a couple pounds in an effort to have a stiff structure that can take a full pen weld as apposed to spot welds.

I really should keep a better record of the weight changes I guess. It's all coming off for blasting and priming so I can still weigh everything before final assembly and I have most of the stock material in my scrap bucket for comparison.

I am still seriously considering a full carbon fiber body which is going to produce significant weight savings in the end, especially compared to a glass body with filler and foam. And of course I'm quadrupling the hp of the engine over stock You know all about those benefits I'm sure

Edit: for typo

[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 12-26-2014).]

quote Originally posted by Yarmouth Fiero: As a side note Fieroguru, I am toying with the idea of an aluminum engine cradle since I can isolate it from the steel chassis with poly bushings. I'm still designing this and calculating the possible weight savings here. But I think it will be significantly lighter compared to a stock engine cradle. Does anyone know if this has been done yet?

mwhite modified an aluminum grandprix cradle (stock LS4 cradle) for his LS4/F40 swap and ended up at 44 lbs, stock 88 cradle is 50 lbs.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/123953.html

Thanks for the link Fieroguru. That's a complicated piece of structure once its all chopped and assembled. I'll continue with my design and see what I come up with but its entirely possible aluminum may not be the way to go. Luckily I have access to a wide variety of aluminum extrusions at work from which to choose from.

As a follow up to Fieroguru's question regarding the weight of my structural changes to the engine bay, I loaded up the old trunk with all the steel parts removed from my chassis aft of the fire wall. This does not include the lower frame rails as I no longer have them. However, the total weight of steel removed so far is 65 lbs. This includes strut towers, trunk and related structure, engine bay plating and upper frame rail notches.



The total weight of the new strut towers, engine bay plating, upper frame reinforcement and new transverse frame between the lower frame rails is.............. 65 lbs. How odd is that? Even I was suprised so I weighed everything a second time to be sure. This does not include the weight of the 3" chassis stretch which is already welded in but I estimate to be approximately 1 lb per side. My new lower frame rails weigh 17 lbs each which I am sure is a few pounds heavier than the stock units. So it looks like my chassis modifications should only result in a slight increase in chassis weight when its all done. Another bonus is that I have shifted the C of G of the chassis slightly forward due to the removal of the trunk and related structure which was all located behind the rear suspension.

Hi Yarmouth,

I see in your trunk metal parts bin you have the gray carpet push tabs retainers.

Are you throwing tham out?? If so, I like to have them as long as they are removed with care.
I don't want the tree ends to be chewed up.

We could work out a payment or parts trade if your interested.

LMK, Thanks...

Good eye fierogt28. I'll see if I can get them out. PM sent.

Sure cleans up the engine bay! What are your plans for the rear cradle mounts? There looks to be a disconnect between orientation of the ones on the frame rail and those on the cradle. What's up with that?

Oops. I hadn't noticed Blooz. I'll have to put in the cradle stretcher at work

quote Originally posted by Bloozberry: Sure cleans up the engine bay! What are your plans for the rear cradle mounts? There looks to be a disconnect between orientation of the ones on the frame rail and those on the cradle. What's up with that?

Thought it was just me..... Yet the front cradle mounts are bolted in place.....
Details required here!! What's the plan?

The plan? That's a tough question ha-ha-ha. With regard to the stock cradle being bolted in place, I am merely using it as a guide to help ensure my new lower frame rails are relatively parallel to the chassis. Its not perfect but the stock cradle is the only thing back there that probably hasn't sagged, warped or twisted during the excavation of my engine bay. When its all welded up and proven true to the chassis, I'll add the stock engine cradle to the scrap bin and build a new cradle that is wider, longer and suited to support the LS1 and Audi gearbox. It turns out that the track width increase in the suspension is about equal to the width increase of my lower frame rails that now run parallel and also my cradle design so my control arms should retain their stock length and thus keep the suspension geometry unchanged....... approximately.

As mentioned in a previous post, I am considering an aluminum engine cradle....... but that decision has yet to be carved in stone.

quote Originally posted by Yarmouth Fiero: the excavation of my engine bay.

EXCELLENT choice of words!

So you'll fit custom or Arraut (or similar) lower control arms/radius rods/links to the new cradle, to simulate the existing? AKA: you'll more-or-less duplicate that geometry? Apologies if I missed it; you are going to use '88-based geometry/components?

I'm going to be doing 'something' the same and am hoping for a guinea pig, here! I won't be doing it in alum; looks like too much complication for too little pay-back, plus I am not set up anymore for welding aluminum so even being able to 'tack' things in place would be fussy. I'm sure you are WAAAAYYYYY ahead on that issue, so not a concern for you.

I got the 88 dimensional dwgs from Blooze (thanks! ) and will use that as the basis for a wider cradle to suit the wider body. Interestingly, he noted that GM's chassis alignment was 'in the order of' +/- 3 mm or so - I'd have to re-check the number before anyone goes running off building a cradle on that basis, but it seemed like a fair bit from the actual manufacturer.....