Thank you for sharing the process. Please take lots of photos along the way. I have been wanting to see how someone creates a new fiberglass part in this fashion!
I think the front end will be a very cool one-off! But you may want to consider incorporating the same feel & style into the rear as well in some form or fashion to unify it all together.
Please keep posting!
Oh, this Will Not be a One Off, this is the Plug. We Plan on making Quiet a Few of them.
This is an interesting idea. Honestly while it is not my cup of tea I can appreciate what you are doing here. Personally I think that rendering in black has a much better looking front fascia than the yellow one. I would endeavor to make the openings look smaller if possible. In other words give the nod to the history and styling but don't overdo it. The fiero is a very low and sleek looking car and making something with a huge maw will only serve to detract from the look. I do like the front chin spoiler but both the openings and the spoiler need to be as low as possible IMHO to look good on the car. Remember that the yellow car is ALSO a choptop so the overall look of the car is changed substaintially from what it would have been and what might look okay on a chopper might look different on a stocker. Much the way the Archie widebody looks vastly different on a chopper than it does on a stock height notchie. Either way this is an interesting thread and I have always thought the foam method of making custom parts like this is the way to go. Brings visions of the clay models major manufacturers use to model new and prototype cars before they come to metal and plastic. Good luck fellas. Peace
Pete
------------------ "May the grins begin when you turn the key and hear the engine roar over your shoulder" ......Gall57 (slightly modified LOL)
How does copyright work with the fact you are copying a design from gm?. true it is going on a fiero but that is like someone having a copyright on a Murci replica they built.. I have no desire to copy it or anything at all but do not see how that would actually stand if someone did make essentially the same product.. Anyways , look forward to seeing more progress..
quote
Originally posted by CrazyDragn:
Just got off with the Copyright people.
We now have a copyrighted product. this is going to be called the iGTO bumper. MCN: CP5DL-H1TFA-BRJS7
This is exciting!!! IT'S GETTING CLOSER!!!!!!!!!!1
------------------
87 GT series 1 3800sc (7.597 @88.53 1.579 60ft) (series II swap in progress) 85GT Northstar 86GT 3800 n/a
Personally I think that rendering in black has a much better looking front fascia than the yellow one. I do like the front chin spoiler Remember that the yellow car is ALSO a choptop so the overall look of the car is changed substaintially from what it would have been and what might look okay on a chopper might look different on a stocker.
Pete
The black car isn't chopped and it is a better representation of what we hope our final product will resemble. There are other non-chopped cars with this bumper in Terry's photoshop thread. I think it is going to be something that can be added as a single piece and completely blend with the original styling of the rest of the car. That is the goal. I think it will come down to personal preference, though. It will be similar to liking bumperpads or not and liking fastbacks with or without rear wings. It won't be for everyone and of those who like it, they may not like it on all Fieros. Time will tell.
Originally posted by Pete Matos: This is an interesting idea. Honestly while it is not my cup of tea I can appreciate what you are doing here. Personally I think that rendering in black has a much better looking front fascia than the yellow one. I would endeavor to make the openings look smaller if possible. In other words give the nod to the history and styling but don't overdo it. The fiero is a very low and sleek looking car and making something with a huge maw will only serve to detract from the look. I do like the front chin spoiler but both the openings and the spoiler need to be as low as possible IMHO to look good on the car. Remember that the yellow car is ALSO a choptop so the overall look of the car is changed substaintially from what it would have been and what might look okay on a chopper might look different on a stocker. Much the way the Archie widebody looks vastly different on a chopper than it does on a stock height notchie. Either way this is an interesting thread and I have always thought the foam method of making custom parts like this is the way to go. Brings visions of the clay models major manufacturers use to model new and prototype cars before they come to metal and plastic. Good luck fellas. Peace
Pete
The yellow 'car' is not copyrighted, the bumper is what is now copyrighted. GM copyrights the name therfore we have an extra 'i' infront of ours making it 'ours'. with the forward lip spoiler on the front altering the bumper more than 20% is the law. The black bumper is the bumper of choice being made currently (bottom lip forward). Both the top forward and the bottom forward design are what is in the copyright book currently. I too like the foam method of making the bumper. It allows you to alter as you go or even add to it as you go, either way if you mess up you always add more or take away more. Thanks for you pointing out some of the issues Jason
Originally posted by jb1: How does copyright work with the fact you are copying a design from gm?. true it is going on a fiero but that is like someone having a copyright on a Murci replica they built.. I have no desire to copy it or anything at all but do not see how that would actually stand if someone did make essentially the same product.. Anyways , look forward to seeing more progress..
Because we altered the bumper more than 20%, then by law we are not copying much more than using it as a 'guideline'. this is not the whole car but the front bumper that is altered. Because it didn't come factory on the fiero nor did it come factory on the GTO the way we are building it - then we can call it our own design and fabricate it within the laws that govern copyright. This also helps keep others from copying our design or similarities for the fiero.
That is the safe way to keep your stuff from others being able to take your designs or projects and use them for their own. We wanted a copyright so we could keep this legal and to keep our ideas - for our own. Great question....thanks for the interests, Jason
I too have started something like this. I have already obtained the 68-69 GTO front bumper and grill pieces. I'm just short on funds to continue it for the moment.
So if I were to make my own and displayed it here on PFF, you could sue me for infringing on "your design"? Seems to me this thread should now be in the mall. It is not an attempt to inspire others to share or do what you are doing, but to sell a product. What if 3800 swaps were copyrighted, side scoops, Ferrari noses, chin spoilers, chop tops ? I think "your" design is cool and I could probably do one myself, but I could never display it because you have invented the 68-69 GTO nose. What if the first hot rodders had copyrighted removing fenders and exposed engines? I just find it distasteful in a club forum to state that no one can take "your" stuff. I saw one guy put a 3d modeled red GTO grill in your thread, is he entitled to a royalty is 85ESNotchie ? Is GM okay with you using their design cues and openly stating where you "copied" it from? It just seems petty and "in your face". Does Amida copyright his 512 noses so no one else can attempt to compete (and by the rules of copyright) or display without his permission with a design he copied from Ferrari? Will you sue larini74, he is already attempting to do "your" design?
Cliff please move this to the mall. It's not for us, it's for a buck!!
Its quite common for product development threads to start/remain in Tech/General sections. The mall section is generally for items that are ready to be sold.
Sure they are making a new bumper (and trying to protect their design) with the intent to sell it (which there is nothing wrong with), but they are also sharing their process of creating the bumper. This process could be very helpful for others looking to do something similar, but not sure how to start/proceed.
Documenting the process of creating the new bumper is why this is in the construction zone...
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-04-2013).]
I get what you are saying Fieroguru , my problem is with the copyright proclamation. It say's to me "don't you try this or compete with me". I say again what if everyone here did that with a mod they thought of? Only Archie can make a V8 swap or choptop only Amida can make a Ferrari nose and Lambo/355 dash, only Dark Horizon can do turbo 3800 swaps, because they copyrighted same. Will Car-2 lo copyright RBS2 which is liberally uses Lambo design cues?
So if I were to make my own and displayed it here on PFF, you could sue me for infringing on "your design"? Seems to me this thread should now be in the mall. It is not an attempt to inspire others to share or do what you are doing, but to sell a product. What if 3800 swaps were copyrighted, side scoops, Ferrari noses, chin spoilers, chop tops ? I think "your" design is cool and I could probably do one myself, but I could never display it because you have invented the 68-69 GTO nose. What if the first hot rodders had copyrighted removing fenders and exposed engines? I just find it distasteful in a club forum to state that no one can take "your" stuff. I saw one guy put a 3d modeled red GTO grill in your thread, is he entitled to a royalty is 85ESNotchie ? Is GM okay with you using their design cues and openly stating where you "copied" it from? It just seems petty and "in your face". Does Amida copyright his 512 noses so no one else can attempt to compete (and by the rules of copyright) or display without his permission with a design he copied from Ferrari? Will you sue larini74, he is already attempting to do "your" design?
Cliff please move this to the mall. It's not for us, it's for a buck!!
Relax, all a copyright does is protect the designers from someone else selling or somehow profiting from a copy of their design or image. There's nothing wrong with trying to make a buck or protecting your design. While he did mention that he would like to offer this nose up for sale in the future, so far this thread has been about the process of building this nose for a Fiero, which belongs squarely in the construction zone. You can build an exact copy for yourself if you like, you just can't sell it or profit from it, or somehow prevent the designer from profiting from it, if it has copyright protection.
Wrong. You also cannot display it "by radio or video", which means I can't show it on PFF. I know where you guys are coming from really, but when you start using legal terms it is a slippery slope. So in the spirit of "forum friendship" I offer this suggestion to the builders. Go to the pick and pull and get a front bumper from a 67-68 Firebird. Google it and you will see what I mean. Leave out the lights and there you go. This will save you days of sculpting your foam. I hereby waive my consulting fees or claims to royalty.
This is not a try and burn you thread, by any means. This is a simple, this is what we are doing. You either like it or not. It ok with us whatever your decision. My brother, the lawyer, helped to set this up. he is on the ccouncil of San Diego and he also practiced in our state and was also in on the monica luinski case with kenneth starr. neither which matters. We just want to make a product that everone can enjoy and not get their pannies in a wad.
So, just like everyone on here who has rights to what they build all we ask is that you respect that as we respect what everone else builds. Saying that, lets have fun and be mature about this whole thing. Thank ou for all your PM responses and patroinage to those who have supported us. Jason
Wrong. You also cannot display it "by radio or video", which means I can't show it on PFF. I know where you guys are coming from really, but when you start using legal terms it is a slippery slope. So in the spirit of "forum friendship" I offer this suggestion to the builders. Go to the pick and pull and get a front bumper from a 67-68 Firebird. Google it and you will see what I mean. Leave out the lights and there you go. This will save you days of sculpting your foam. I hereby waive my consulting fees or claims to royalty.
Its quite common for product development threads to start/remain in Tech/General sections. The mall section is generally for items that are ready to be sold.
Sure they are making a new bumper (and trying to protect their design) with the intent to sell it (which there is nothing wrong with), but they are also sharing their process of creating the bumper. This process could be very helpful for others looking to do something similar, but not sure how to start/proceed.
Documenting the process of creating the new bumper is why this is in the construction zone...
Actually, we are trying to enspire new creative ideas with our method of use.
Not entirely wrong, The thread so far has been building the nose, which belongs here in the construction zone.
Build your own for yourself if you wish, I'm sure that legally you can. Alter it 20 percent if you want to post the image here or elsewhere if you're afraid of being sued. Lawyering up and sueing is quite expensive, while I wish these guys great success in their endevour I highly doubt they'll be getting rich on this project as it's a fairly limited market.
Sorry for the sidetrack. Good luck guys, hope you get this done and to market at some point.
Turbodad, I hear you. Have you heard us? Did you bother to ask anything discretely in a PM? No, you busted in on a happy build thread yelling foul. There's always one who has to cry. Is this an original idea? Yes it is. I had the idea and I asked 85SEnochie to create it in his photoshop thread. I never thought I would ever be actually making it. This is very exciting for me and possibly even more so for Crazydragn. He's the driving force in this project. Without him pushing me to join up with him on this project, it would still be an image on a screen. Instead, now it's an evolving creation in foam behind my house. Are we happy and proud about it? Hell yes!! Got a problem with our excitement? I don't give a damn. We're just a couple of poor old Tennessee hillbillies having fun, trying to make some pocket money, and deeply desiring to supply the community with a nice product. If you have a problem with that, see my answer above. Yes we applied for a copyright. Apparently, our project qualified for one or it wouldn't have been issued. To be honest, I know absolutely nothing about legal mumbo-jumbo but after hearing your rant, I sure do see how quickly things can get ugly so it is obviously wise to CYA.
I won't address this topic further on this thread. If Crazydragn chooses to, he's a grown man and that is up to him. I'd rather get back to the car and do some more carving! Who's ready for more pics and build notes?
So if I were to make my own and displayed it here on PFF, you could sue me for infringing on "your design"? Seems to me this thread should now be in the mall. It is not an attempt to inspire others to share or do what you are doing, but to sell a product. What if 3800 swaps were copyrighted, side scoops, Ferrari noses, chin spoilers, chop tops ? I think "your" design is cool and I could probably do one myself, but I could never display it because you have invented the 68-69 GTO nose. What if the first hot rodders had copyrighted removing fenders and exposed engines? I just find it distasteful in a club forum to state that no one can take "your" stuff. I saw one guy put a 3d modeled red GTO grill in your thread, is he entitled to a royalty is 85ESNotchie ? Is GM okay with you using their design cues and openly stating where you "copied" it from? It just seems petty and "in your face". Does Amida copyright his 512 noses so no one else can attempt to compete (and by the rules of copyright) or display without his permission with a design he copied from Ferrari? Will you sue larini74, he is already attempting to do "your" design?
I really don't understand how you got your feelings hurt. We are trying to help show you how to make a product. how to make it! not hurt you or try to keep you from it, we are trying to inspire you by showing our progress. Good luck to you and god bless you Jason
Not entirely wrong, The thread so far has been building the nose, which belongs here in the construction zone.
Build your own for yourself if you wish, I'm sure that legally you can. Alter it 20 percent if you want to post the image here or elsewhere if you're afraid of being sued. Lawyering up and sueing is quite expensive, while I wish these guys great success in their endevour I highly doubt they'll be getting rich on this project as it's a fairly limited market.
Sorry for the sidetrack. Good luck guys, hope you get this done and to market at some point.
you can absolutely build your own for yourself, there is NO infringemnt for that I can tell you that now. We just want to be able to resell our product thus it has to be copyright, anyone who wouldn't would be foolish. I'm done with this . Lets get back to the build and be mature about this. I appreciate your coooperation.
AV8Fiero, you can't give me permission to build this only the OP copyright holder can. I do like this mod. I had originally intended to give some advice and try it myself as IMHO they are going at it with a sledgehammer rather than a scalpel ie. 67-68 firebird has the same nose in one piece. But the OP sidetracked this thread with the copyright proclamation which means if I posted what I have done he could say "you can't do that I have a copyright". I know you may think "oh they won't mind" but he has built in legal counsel and has copyrighted before it is even done I think he would mind and think that I copied his idea and he would be right !! I'm just glad chop tops haven't been copyrighted.........they haven't right Archie?
Sledge hammer, I work in nursing, ill remember that when your relative needs to have surgery. you know what, I'm sorry, I shouldn't say that, I just get upset sometimes when people don't really think things thru brfore they say it, I love you guys!!
Sledge hammer, I work in nursing, ill remember that when your relative needs to have surgery. you know what, I'm sorry, I shouldn't say that, I just get upset sometimes when people don't really think things thru brfore they say it, I love you guys!!
And back to the build!!
There is waaay to much bickering.Just keep building this awesome product.
I love when threads go to this stage. I work in the automotive design world, and deal with intellectual property all the time.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but a coryright will NOT protect your design, it will protect your name. A copyright might also protect any images of the final design or anything in a brochure etc. It does not and will never hold up in court if the design was infringed on. To truly protect your idea you need to file for a patent... way different from a copyright and way more expensive. I have sold off many designs I have done and transferred intellectual property rights to my clients, when they decide to patent the product. A copy right means nothing for a physical bumper or part. You need to see a Intellectual property layer. Patenting a part is also not easy and costs thousands of dollars.
The chances of someone copying this bumper and taking money out of your pocket are so infinitely small that its not worth the attorney and patent fees. Build it, share the process and make a cool looking part. At the end of the day you also have to realize this: This is a public forum which means that once you put that rendering of the yellow car online you made your plans and design public domain, meaning you have already released your part and its too late. If someone takes your bumper and makes a mold from it, then produces a part and sells it, that is a whole different story. You have the right and will win any case based on infringement of your "intellectual property..."
I love to see people trying new stuff and getting their hands dirty in the process. That is one of the reason my dad and I built the orange widebody. Its a creative and exciting process, the minute it becomes too serious it looses some of sparkle.
The whole thing about changing 20% is BS, not sure who told you that. There is no law, or rule as a result of litigation allowing any percent change to patent anything. How do you measure a 20% difference. Its is a myth and has no validity in a intellectual property hearing.
Good luck with the project, its cool to follow it along.
I love when threads go to this stage. I work in the automotive design world, and deal with intellectual property all the time.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but a coryright will NOT protect your design, it will protect your name. A copyright might also protect any images of the final design or anything in a brochure etc. It does not and will never hold up in court if the design was infringed on. To truly protect your idea you need to file for a patent... way different from a copyright and way more expensive. I have sold off many designs I have done and transferred intellectual property rights to my clients, when they decide to patent the product. A copy right means nothing for a physical bumper or part. You need to see a Intellectual property layer. Patenting a part is also not easy and costs thousands of dollars.
The chances of someone copying this bumper and taking money out of your pocket are so infinitely small that its not worth the attorney and patent fees. Build it, share the process and make a cool looking part. At the end of the day you also have to realize this: This is a public forum which means that once you put that rendering of the yellow car online you made your plans and design public domain, meaning you have already released your part and its too late. If someone takes your bumper and makes a mold from it, then produces a part and sells it, that is a whole different story. You have the right and will win any case based on infringement of your "intellectual property..."
I love to see people trying new stuff and getting their hands dirty in the process. That is one of the reason my dad and I built the orange widebody. Its a creative and exciting process, the minute it becomes too serious it looses some of sparkle.
The whole thing about changing 20% is BS, not sure who told you that. There is no law, or rule as a result of litigation allowing any percent change to patent anything. How do you measure a 20% difference. Its is a myth and has no validity in a intellectual property hearing.
Good luck with the project, its cool to follow it along.
Alex
I WILL address this again. YES, there is a law about changine it 20% and thus is NOT BS - read your laws more thoroughly. my brother - who is a lawyer - and is doing this probono and is a well known national lawyer - can and will help us. he IS pushing for a ptend as we speak, but has nothing to do with anything when it comesto anyone elses knowledge or knowing of anyhting. this is private in matter. Look guys, I wouldn't post something I wasn't sure of or have looked into thoroughly. I love this build, love the responses, lets get back to build and use this for constructive converations rather that I KNOW WhaT IM TALKING ABUT thread. Love you guys, let's get busy now.
Okay. I agree it is a private matter. The 20% thing isn't true. The OEM's (BMW, Audi, Mclaren, Volvo) I worked for also have lawyers (many of them) and as a designer I do know what is protected and how it works. Good luck proving your design is 20% different, to one person its going to be 9% to another 15%, there is no measurable variable, its all subjective...
The last thing I would worry about is someone stealing my idea.
I won't be needing your medical expertise, but thanks for the love. Yes a sledgehammer. Unless you are Michelangelo that chunk of foam is headed for disaster. I want to help. If you don't like the firebird grill, try drawing out the outline of the grill on a large piece of cardboard. Then use a can of in-expensive spray foam to trace the outline of the grill, like one to two inches thick. After it dries shape it with a file and cover with foil. Lay on lightweight glass and body filler to form a model. Knock that snout off and hold your newly formed grill up to the frame. You will see that you need a lot less material to make it look proportional and span the area between the fenders, hood and grill. Look at the photo shops and a see what I mean by proportional. Also you seem little hot headed. If that hunk of foam is indicative of your surgical skills I hope your brother is a malpractice attorney. Just kidding really. On with the build. I just want this forum to remain a place for " free" exchange of ideas. Not a legal mine field.
Originally posted by FieroGTRwideboNot worried one bit, just covering my own and thus the parties invalled on azzesby:
Okay. I agree it is a private matter. The 20% thing isn't true. The OEM's (BMW, Audi, Mclaren, Volvo) I worked for also have lawyers (many of them) and as a designer I do know what is protected and how it works. Good luck proving your design is 20% different, to one person its going to be 9% to another 15%, there is no measurable variable, its all subjective...
The last thing I would worry about is someone stealing my idea.
I'm not worried one bit. Just covering my and the other parties involed in this projects own azzes. That being said, I also have worked as an Aerospace Engineer, Hell helped develope the first 360 degree camera on a helo that chased OJ Simpson and know what the laws are too. I changed my degree becuase I was bored. Doesn't matter about what perspective is - heck just look at Clinton.
All I care about at this point is getting back to the build - not this petty crap.; God loves you and so do I. God has blessed me and I pray for any of those who post on this thread to be of positve process and uplift your brethren. We have too much petty downdraft in this world to just go arounfd throwing thoguths and accusations to just sit around and play smart people who think that just because they can put something down that maybe they should. Let's keep it simple folks keep it clean, Speak good of one another and I will do the same Thank you and God Bless you if you post. Thank you for your thoughts Jason
Wow this is just nutz. I mean I can certainly understand protecting yourself and your ideas when it comes to money. However what I can't understand is the idea that you guys have a simple drawing and have not even made a prototype yet and you are already worried about copyrights? I mean the reality is that this product, if it ever actually becomes a product, is made for a car that is no longer made and the following is very much quite limited even in these circles that I would be really surprised if you actually sold more than a dozen of these noses once the prototyping and mold making stages are completed. The kind of profit you could expect from the sale of these things would most likely never come close to paying for even a single lawsuit to protect the design. There are several other folks here who make all sorts of cool and interesting body parts and interior parts many with the possibility of a lot more volume and I don't recall reading about their applications for a patent or copyright let alone lawyering up family lawyer or otherwise. To be honest with you it would have been much better appearing if you indeed were after some sorta patent to just keep quiet about it and once the product is actually ready for sale just make a webpage and put the patent information in the details there. Honestly like I said while the design is definitely not my cup of tea it has some merit obviously and I sincerely wish you the best of luck with it. Just do yourself a favor and leave the patent and lawyer stuff aside until you actually need it. Good luck with it man. peace
Pete
------------------ "May the grins begin when you turn the key and hear the engine roar over your shoulder" ......Gall57 (slightly modified LOL)
any new updates on the bumper.... want to see it and not read all this other stuff...... guys keep doing what your doing and hopefully all will work out...
Your vision for this bumper is giving me some ideas for mine.Keep up the AWESOME job..
Good luck proving your design is 20% different, to one person its going to be 9% to another 15%, there is no measurable variable, its all subjective...
GTR
