Any idea how to fix it? I guess now you know why they have to ridges in it from the factory
Swap looks amazing.
Yeah, I guess the stock reinforcing ribs did have a purpose. When gushotrod smoothed the top, he probably didn't think about it possibly vibrating.
Adding spray on truck bead liner to the underside of the plenum would probably eliminate or reduce the vibration as it is pretty tough and normally 3/16 to 1/4" thick. Probably the least expensive option.
Next option purchase another HSR upper plenum with the ribs and install it stock. This will require a slightly larger notch in the decklid support, but other than that it is a bolt on solution that will work with all the other custom parts made for this swap. The stock upper/lower intake is $366.95 from Summit or Jegs:
There is a knockoff version that sells for $285 on ebay that has an upper plenum fabricated from 1/4" thick aluminum:
Or you could look for other custom HSR upper plenums. Here is one in carbon fiber ($1000 and the throttle bracket I made might not work):
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-13-2014).]
You're just hitting the resonate frequency of the top portion of the plenum at idle. Just do something to change it's mass and you'll move it to a different frequency which will excite at a different rpm.
Either duct tape Paul's hand to the plenum or find something else to stick on it like a large Fiero Emblem or something of the like. If Paul was more into marketing he'd already have "Fieroguru Performance L.L.C." lazer cut out of aluminum, polished and stuck to the intake by now!
... If Paul was more into marketing he'd already have "Fieroguru Performance L.L.C." lazer cut out of aluminum, polished and stuck to the intake by now!
Going to see if FieroGuru will give me permission to do something like that and put it on my intake. This would be awesome, and give him much-deserved credit.
Back from yet another business trip and back working on the car. Only thing good about traveling is spending the evenings thinking about Fiero stuff.
The drivetrain is back out for clutch issues.
ClutchNet was supposed to ship the exact same clutch/pressure plate as the car had before, but after nearly 2 months of waiting for them, the pressure plate ended up being different. Shame on me for not taking the time to properly compare the two pressure plates. The old one was in the attic and when the new one was red and rivet style I assumed it was the same. They are different, have different clamp loads, and even place the pressure plate fingers in a different spot:
The other error on my part was I didn't bleed the HTOB prior to taking my range of motion measurements, so when the new pressure plate arrived and I checked its finger position, the range of motion looked right with slightly less room for wear vs. release. But it wasn't right and eventually over extended after about 40 miles and 8 hrs of running. FTE is the OEM supplier for the F23 HTOB and I scored a NOS unit on eBay. This one doesn't have any fluid and I will make sure my measurements are correct this time...
Having the engine out it gives me easy access to knock out a few other items.
The bad idler pulley was likely caused by pressing some 3/8" lock washers into the center of the bearing to help center it (the LS4 idler pulley is 12mm ID and I am using a 3/8" bolt for it - done this many times before). These were too much of a press fit and likely enlarged the inner race enough to cause an issue. So before I installed the new idler, I took a stack of 4 lock washers and tuned down the OD so they could easily slide into the new idler pulley. Here is a picture of the old one with the lock washers still pressed in place:
I found another source of light metal rattle (was thinking it was the A/C clutch). Instead it was the heat shield I had added between the alternator and the header primary to keep as much exhaust heat off the alternator as possible. There is about 1/4" between the two pieces and I bent the heat shield to be better centered between the two.
For the intake plenum vibration, I adapted Joshua's suggestion but kept it completely invisible. Once the plenum was off, I removed the brass PCV fitting from the bottom center and bored it to accept a 1/2" aluminum tube:
Pressed in an aluminum tube, drilled 4 air holes in it for the PCV, cut it to precise length and added a plastic cap to the top:
Threaded it back into place and this tube now pushes up the center of the plenum by .008" and should keep it from vibrating.
The other thing I fixed today was upper plenum bolts. The two on the PS had deeper holes in the plenum and were recessed about .14" further than the other side. So I turned up some spacers to fit under the bolt heads to take up the excess space:
If you look closely at the picture of the inside of the plenum, you will see some oil residue from the PCV system. I have ordered a catch can to install down by the transmission to keep as much oil as possible out of the intake.
While I have everything out, I will also mod the cradle slightly to improve room around the rear V-band. I have installed and removed it a couple of times in the car, but more room would make it much easier to do.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-20-2014).]
Yeah, Clutchnet said they would replace the pressure plate for free - didn't even need to send back the old one, however since that talk, it has been a communication blackout. I've called them every business day at an appropriate time and left messages to no avail.
At this point I'm going to file a BBB and then just get the SPEC that FieroGuru recommended to me. If Clutchnet does eventually send me the right pressure plate, then I'll have my backup handy.
Since they said not to bother to send back the wrong pressure plate (which is probably at, or only slightly above, stock -- Guru would need to chime in there), I guess I can put it up in the market here, but not sure how well it'd work with another clutch.
Clutchnet (aka EZ clutch) has been doing this crap for years. When they send out the right parts, they seem to hold up well, but it's a 50/50 chance. Their customer service has always been terrible too.
Yeah, I really *really* liked my first clutch/pp from them. The salesperson I spoke to when I first did business with them was --- not great. I emailed them, and Oleg emailed me back within an hour apologizing and saying he'd make it right. I called back, he took my order, showed up promptly and was exactly what it should have been.
But this time... just not thrilled with the customer service. Such a shame, too. I thought they had a great product. Anyhow, I'm going to go with SPEC this time around and see how it holds up!
I'll be ordering the SC883F, clamping pressure is good for up to 515 pounds of torque, which will do great for the time being. I am going to call and see if I can get different clutch material than the organic, maybe they have an equivalent to the multi-puck ceramic setup I had, or a carbon/ceramic. People say they don't engage well, but (excluding first gear), I found engagement to be pretty smooth.
I'd go with kevlar, but I'm worried about this two-part scenario: I glaze it from stop-and-go, and when I try to 'burn the glaze off' with hard use, I overheat the thing and ruin it. lol That would be my luck.
Originally posted by Trinten: Since they said not to bother to send back the wrong pressure plate (which is probably at, or only slightly above, stock -- Guru would need to chime in there), I guess I can put it up in the market here, but not sure how well it'd work with another clutch.
If they don't make this issue right, you already have paid for this pressure plate and are free to do what you want with it. However, from the feel of the clutch pedal, I doubt this pressure plate was anything but a stock one painted Red.
quote
Originally posted by Trinten: I'll be ordering the SC883F, clamping pressure is good for up to 515 pounds of torque, which will do great for the time being. I am going to call and see if I can get different clutch material than the organic, maybe they have an equivalent to the multi-puck ceramic setup I had, or a carbon/ceramic. People say they don't engage well, but (excluding first gear), I found engagement to be pretty smooth.
The Spec Stage 3+ material is very similar to the 6 puck ClutchNet, but it is a full face clutch to it engages smoother. It isn't organic, but is a carbon semi-metallic material.
quote
from Spec website The flagship stage for a high powered street or race car that requires a manageable and friendly engagement, the stage 3+ features a carbon semi-metallic full faced material that offers unparalleled life, friction co-efficient and drivability characteristics in one single package. The hub is double sprung with spring cover relieves for flexibility and heat treated components for strength and durability. Great for street, drag, drift, autocross, road racing, pulling, rallye and drift.
High clamp pressure plate Carbon semi-metallic friction material High torque sprung hub and disc assembly Bearing and tool kit
I know when Drew-py was looking to replace his clutch he replaced a stock style Spec with a McLloud, That thing wasn't good for the 247hp stock 3800sc2. He went back with a Custom Spec with a Getrag inner and a 3800 Camaro clutch. With that he is now putting down about 400/400 and hasn't told me about any issues. Drew was very happy with how easy Spec was when it came to a custom order/build. I think you'll be very happy with what you get. If you are not then it would be your own fault for not ordering what you needed.
My 'off the shelf' Spec arrived at FieroGuru's place on Wednesday. With the clamping pressure this has, I shouldn't have any issues with it. But it's good to know that they were so accommodating with getting a customer application built. I'll have to keep that in mind for the future.
Back from my most recent trip for work and the new spec clutch was waiting for me.
Comparison between the two:
Once the new clutch/pressure plate were bolted to the flywheel and measured the height of the clutch fingers: 2.112"
Then I measured the range of motion of the HTOB w/o any spacer. 2.776" Retracted 1.899" Extended
So if I just installed this like it is, there would only be .213" for release and .664" for wear... no chance this will work w/o a spacer. Now this combo is unique in that the flywheel is about .200" further from the transmission than a stock fiero due to the Archie flywheel and adapter plate.
This car did come with a HTOB spacer that is .250" thick. So using it with this clutch the release will be .463" and .414" for wear. Even with the spacer, there is a very good chance the HTOB will over extend. The HTOB spacer needed to be thicker, so I turned a very larger washer down for a tight press fit inside the HTOB spacer.
With the washer inside, the HTOB is now .437" thick. So now there is: .650" for release .227" for wear
And this will work just fine...
Then it was time to put everything back together and get it ready to go back under the car.
That pic of the clutches also showed me something else that changed with Clutchnet, my original clutch from them, the springs were fully enclosed - not the best for knowing when a spring broke, but would definitely keep broken spring parts from jumping out and tearing/jamming things up (it was one of the things I liked... now if it's a bad idea, that's my ignorance showing).
But this new clutch from them, not enclosed. So, another mark against them in my book, as it's another difference from "Give me the same thing I ordered before."
Either way, I'm super glad the new parts showed up and were correct, and that FieroGuru was able to cook up a fix to make sure the spacing was right!! Thank you again!
That pic of the clutches also showed me something else that changed with Clutchnet, my original clutch from them, the springs were fully enclosed - not the best for knowing when a spring broke, but would definitely keep broken spring parts from jumping out and tearing/jamming things up (it was one of the things I liked... now if it's a bad idea, that's my ignorance showing).
But this new clutch from them, not enclosed. So, another mark against them in my book, as it's another difference from "Give me the same thing I ordered before."
That has always just been a sales gimmick, as they only enclose one side of the springs - only the front side that is visible when the clutch is installed. The new disk does have the front side enclosed, but as you can see the back side is just like the Spec setup. Even comparing the thickness of the metal in the spring opening, they are the same thickness. Here is a front side pic:
Originally posted by motoracer838: when did Spec become the "good" clutch company??? Joe
The Spec Stage 3+ is probably the best clutch on the market for 300-450 whp Fieros. Its holds the power and has very good drivabilty. If you don't want to worry about the springs, go with the Stage 4+ (same clutch, just with a solid hub). The Stage 3+ was the clutch I originally recommended for this swap, but Vince wanted to stay with ClutchNet.
I have used Spec clutches in every swap going on 10 years and have never had one fail. I have also waited in Spec's lobby while they built me a new clutch (transmission issue) while I was on the Hot Rod Power Tour, so I am Spec supporter. I have used their Stage 2+, Stage 3, Stage 3+ and Stage 4+ clutches in cars pushing up to 400 whp.
However, Spec as a company isn't nearly as stellar at their Stage 3+ clutch. Their R&D does leave a lot to be desired.
Very early on Spec had the issue with the splined hubs being backwards. I think they tried to sell the HTOB clutches (that don't have a throwout bearing support sleeve) to the Fiero market w/o ever testing fitting on in house. There was interference and it took years for all those bad clutches to be removed from service.
Then they had the spring popping out issue. This was mostly isolated to the Spec Stage 3 clutch and I think that clutch's on/off nature with excessive shuttering just overloaded the retaining tabs for the springs. The vast majority of the spring issues have stopped in the recent years, so they either fixed it or most people are buying the Stage 3+. The Spec Stage 3 clutch is just a bad clutch and I would never recommend it.
The only relatively recent Spec clutch failures were with the F40's and those don't use the same disk as the Fiero version, I don't know the details about their failures (one behind a SBC and one behind a 3800SC) so those might be completely unrelated to the Fiero application.
The vibrating of the intake is much less, but it still changes sounds when I put my hand on it... eventually it will need some kind of sound deadener or top plate. It doesn't sound abnormal, but since I know its there it still annoys me.
The A/C clutch was still vibrating, so I removed it from the compressor the time being (its nice being able to swap it out with everything installed!). I will buy a new one and I hope it doesn't vibrate as much. The good news is that once this was removed, the rest of the engine/exhaust wasn't making any other annoying or otherwise distracting noises! The V-bands are now leak free too and while the engine was out, I checked the header flange gaskets for black soot and they appear to be leak free as well.
The new clutch definitely has a higher clamp pressure plate (I noticed it just tightening the pressure plate bolts), but still has smooth engagement.
While I had it out for its first test drive up around the subdivision, I figured it was a good time to take an outdoors video of the exhaust. So you have something to compare it to, I parked it along side the LS4 car and started it up and revved it as well. While Vince's car and the LS4 car share the same muffler, Vince's has a Vibrant performance resonator and resonator tips which help cut down on the throatiness that the LS4 car has.
Here is the video/sound clip of both cars:
I am pretty sure that while reinstalling the axles, I figured out the source of the gear whine that gets worse with vehicle speed and the excessive backlash in the drivetrain as you transition between on/off throttle. This car has a quaife limited slip, so there are no spider gears and the tripods snap tightly into the limited slip unit. When I was installing the DS axle, it only went in about 1/2 way and got in a bind, when I tried to pull it back out it moved slightly and made a heavy metal thunk... That caused me to look into the noise further and found this:
So it would appear the differential bearings are toast... I am going to drive the car a little this week to fine tune some other aspects of the car, but will pull everything back out this coming weekend and drop the transmission off at the rebuilder on Monday so they can open it up and see what it going on inside it.
Also, for anyone that is okay with dropping heavy coin for a seriously built up F23 -- I found this place: http://www.fmsrperformance....8_145&product_id=119 (something I'm keeping bookmarked for the future)
I don't want this to tie up FieroGuru's garage any longer - this project has taken way longer than he anticipated, and I feel bad about it. He's been extremely patient and professional, and upfront about stuff he finds and thinks should be fixed. I seriously can't thank him enough.
Keeping my fingers crossed that it just needs those bearings, given how low the mileage is on it. Hopefully they'll be on the level with him about what they find.
[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 05-12-2014).]
Yes! I saw that, too. When I was researching some of their options on the automatic transmissions, I found a post from DarthFiero talking about how he was working with another place to build up automatics ( http://tripleedgeperformanc...rformance_4T65E.html ).
So for folks that don't mind dropping coin, definitely some options between those two builders. I just hope my transmission holds out for a few years! I want to get some other stuff done on it first!
Okay! So some good news! The differential bearing was not bad, it just needed to be shimmed. They said everything else in the transmission is perfectly fine as well!
My understanding is that once Guru has it back in the car, he's going to start putting some more miles on it for tuning and making sure there are no leaks/issues, and then get it to the dyno for some WOT tuning.
Drawback for me is that I can't put in any vacation requests for June at this point, so when it's finished, I either need to push/rush to pick it up on my 'weekend', or slate it for the beginning of July - which I might do. We have off the fourth of July already, so I might put in to get that first week of July off (if that works for Guru). Gives me time for a leisurely trip each way, and some time to take Guru and his family out for a nice dinner as part of my thank you, as well as pick his brain with my patented Ignorant Questions (tm)!
Back from yet another business trip... at least this one was while the transmission was at the shop. My wife picked up the transmission for me on Friday and today I cleaned it, removed the excess case sealant and then painted it again. My goal is to have the car running again by Tuesday.
Transmission soaking up some sunlight as the paint dries:
That is the one thing I've noticed with the F23 swaps that included the case swaps and LSD installs... not once has anyone ever mentioned verifying that the shims were correct size with the mismatched parts. Glad you got it taken care of.
I actually bought the full kit of F23 tools, including the shim selection kit, off of ebay for $50 for when I dig deeper into doing a 3.63 final swap.
This assumes I ever get the thing back on the road of course...
Did a few shakedown drives this evening. No more excessive driveline slop with on/off throttle transitions and the excessive gear whine is gone too! The clutch engagement is silky smooth as well!
The wideband is hooked up and being logged through HP Tuners, so now I get to focus more on the driving and tuning side of things. I need to make a mount so I can get some in car videos of some drives... I have a magnet mount, but with the interior back in, there aren't any metal surfaces to stick it to.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-29-2014).]
Originally posted by fieroguru: I need to make a mount so I can get some in car videos of some drives... I have a magnet mount, but with the interior back in, there aren't any metal surfaces to stick it to.
I put about 70 miles on the car today taking it for multiple trips through the country loop (about 15 miles). A couple of trips I was logging MAF and the others I was logging SD. The MAF tune is about done (except WOT), but the SD side still needs more work.
I used some left over double sided sticky tape to attach some 16ga to the rear window, then I could use my magnetic base for my camera. I took a couple of videos of portions of my travels, but never went over 20% throttle in these videos:
I noticed that my oil pressure sensor/gauge is now more accurate/sensitive. Before, I would start it up and the needle would (fairly quickly) creep up to about 3/4 of the way to the max, then pretty much sit there the entire time with very little variation. Once after driving on the highway for about 2 hours I came to a stop and was a little freaked out when the needle dropped to the half-way mark. As soon as I stopped I jumped out and checked the oil level, absolutely sure that for it to have pressure that low that I had to have lost a bunch of oil - but I hadn't, thankfully. (Even checked it the next day when the engine was cold, just to make sure! Yes, a little paranoid).
Could also be more sensitive thanks to FieroGuru opening up the oil return port thingie that the filter relocation setup needs to use.
Sounds great and looks like it's moving without any issues! The wideband MAF was staying in a pretty good range, too! Kudos to your tuning!!
(Edited: I fixed 'not' to 'now' -- talk about a typo that dramatically changes the meaning of the post! Sorry I didn't catch it sooner)
[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 06-08-2014).]
I have put somewhere between 250 and 300 miles on the car since the swap and things are looking good and the swap is leak free. The SD and MAF tunes are complete for normal driving and the MAF is roughed in with 3 WOT runs runs to 6500 rpm (I will tweak it a little more on the dyno). I took it into town for some heavy stop/go driving and stayed right around 190 with the fan cycling on/off as needed.
I don't drive the car in the rain, so sometime this week (weather permitting) I will accomplish the following:
Take the car on an interstate run from Lexington to Louisville (about 65 miles each way + 25 miles each way to the interstate) at a steady 70 mph. The car will be driven home, so I want to test that condition before handing over the car, as well as check for interstate fuel economy.
Put the car on the dyno to dial in the WOT tune and play with the timing & A/F ratio for peak power.
The other things left to do... Put the rest of the center console back together. Install the rear wheel well liners. Change out the brake hoses for braided stainless ones. Install the rear sway bar. Charge the A/C. Continue to drive the car.
Took the car on a 230 mile joy ride today to check the MPG on the interstate. I filled up right off the interstate in Lexington, then jumped on I64 and drove past the Indiana State line (other side of Louisville) and came back (160 miles total). Stopped at the same gas station, used the same pump and filled it back up. 21.4 mpg on the interstate running between 68 and 80, but the average for the vast majority of the run was 70-75.
All that's left to do is: Dyno tune - tried to go last week, but owner had a stint put in. Should be able to get it done this week. Charge the A/C Install the braided stainless brake hoses
Here are a few more pics I took the other day once I installed the vent brackets and decklid support:
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-15-2014).]
And I definitely won't complain about 21 MPG, either!
I might have to buy that nice car cover sooner than later, try to help keep stuff from calling through the vents and making the engine bay look all gross.
Vince and Greg (CowsPatoot) came up on the 3rd and we hung out late that night. On the 4th they came over the to house and took the car for multiple spins through the country running the car through its paces. Vince even took a spin in the LS4/F40 Fiero and they headed home that afternoon.
The power band of the car is very similar to mine and should make peak HP well above 6K rpm. I dyno'd the car and with the 1.6 rockers it floated the valves at 5800 rpm and only put down 354 whp @ 5800 rpm. After the dyno, the valve springs were changed and it now pulls strong to 6500 rpm. I ran out of time to get it on the dyno a 2nd time to see how much more power it makes above 5800 rpm.
Yup, I have it back now, very happy with everything FieroGuru did. Looking forward to when the weather out here gets closer to what it was when I had my dyno done with the carb, so I can see the differences with less variables.
The car still has a horrible driver, though.
The new throttle is taking me some time to get used to. I've had a few interesting moments learning it, including more than a few unintentional tire barks, and some jerking.
But it's happily sitting in my driveway again!
FieroGuru also spent a lot of time explaining brake stuff to me, showing me side-by-side comparisons (he has a lot of parts, and an immaculately organized garage). So it was a great learning experience, too!
In the future if there's ever other big stuff I want to get done that's up his alley, I'm definitely going to give him a call. He also gave me 4.6 gigs of stuff ( 1,200 +/- pictures, wiring diagrams and my HP Tuners file), as well as been extremely gracious with answering my questions since I've picked the car up.
