I saw thaw article awhile back, thats cars about 3-4 million, and hell spend close to a mil on the resto. For a car thatll have 7-900 horses. ferriaris are cool and all but no way id spend that Id build a kit car! lol
heres how that door jamb turned out,
After all the work I spent making the b pillars, it never looked right to me so i cut em off and am going w the make my own window channel route. Played around w the window curve, nailed it. Had some of the 1.2" channel I bent round to get an idea of how its gonna look diggin it for sure, gonna order up some 1" channel. Stiff debating what thickness to make the windows, more thickness=more money/less sound less flexibility hmmmmmmmmm gotta find some press in felt liner for the channel so the window rides in that stuff. hate searching for stuff on the internet. What you wants out there, just can never find it garrrr
It's looking much better than when you first got it and I admire your hard work and patience. But I feel it will never look close to right unless you stretch the wheelbase, unfortunately.
Measuring the wheelbase was the first thing i did when i got it home. Didnt even have it off the trailer. Its 3" shorter than the real thing and not a big deal to me. Some folks think its 1-2' short. I thin a stretch is mandatory on a diablo kit and some others. Most stretch from the firewall out. To make this right I have to cut the body in half and extend the 3" into the doors. And thats just crazy talk lol. I know itll never look exactly like the real thing but 1% smaller and 400% slower is ok, the latter I can work on and still be saving millions lol.
Ive got about 400 miles on it and heres what Ive gathered from the folks that come out of the woodworks to check out the car n chat
8 of 10 think its a real ferrari 1 of 10 think its a real ferrari but somethings funny (hood, roof, n rear wing are yuuge compared to the rest of the car/wheels look like space savers/scared cat suspension aint foolin anybody rawr!) n dont know about kit cars 1 of 10 know me lol
Yes I know the difference between the Fiero and F40 wheelbase is only 3". The F40 uses the same wheelbase as the 288 GTO, 348 and 355. But this 3" makes the whole difference. This is why 348 and 355 kits don't like right either.
But so you are already driving it? Then it's finished? Post some pictures.
I hear ya but 3" isnt going to make any difference once the cars parts are all proportional to each other. If it was a foot or two short yeah but im not worried about 3" lol. Getting close to being done w the fb on the roof trim finally, just some small details to tidy up.
Been stalking cl for some rims for awhile now, finally found some i think will look killer. Sent the guy a lowball he quickly replied w no. 2 days later I get a text to come get em. They dont fit but give me an idea of how the car will look w some killer wheels. Got the car on blocks for the mock up on the driver side hella slammed raised up a wee bit
what an awesome set o wheels and what a difference theyll make. I absolutely love the car waaay more now and am more motivated to finish. My wife said the car looks so good i could leave it the way it is. nah ill finish it
Yes I know the difference between the Fiero and F40 wheelbase is only 3". The F40 uses the same wheelbase as the 288 GTO, 348 and 355. But this 3" makes the whole difference. This is why 348 and 355 kits don't like right either.
But so you are already driving it? Then it's finished? Post some pictures.
My AD355 has panels pulled from genuine Ferrari panels. It has the rear wheel well cut in 3" forward so that it matches the Fiero wheelbase. It's hard to notice the wheel well move but after I found out that you don't have to cut the Fiero in half you can just extend the engine cradle I kind of wish that O had gone that way.
what an awesome set o wheels and what a difference theyll make. I absolutely love the car waaay more now and am more motivated to finish. My wife said the car looks so good i could leave it the way it is. nah ill finish it
shem
Yeah, that right there looks great. Low enough to remove wheelwell gap, but high enough that it doesn't look like a hotwheels that got stepped on. What a huge difference those wheels make. Keep it up, this thing is coming along nicely! Looking forward to seeing more
I racked my brain trying to find a way to add the 3", thought about moving the cradle back its easy. My car has the 3" missing from the middle of the doors, adding the 3" anywhere else would look funny. My doors line up w the fiero doors perfectly. The cab of the car would have to be lengthened so the cooling tubes, harnesses, shift/ebrake/throttle cables, fuel lines, etch would all have to be removed and made longer after making the cab longer. NAH!
Thanks for the likes fellas, I hope yr enjoying the show as much as I like fixing up this car. I love a good challenge but its taking FOREVER! doing 1 layer of fb a day(when I can) then having to wait next day for it to dry, then I can sand, then more fb to raise lower/fill holes, not liking hat I see, cut it out and do it again, repeat lol
Def love the new wheels, the 20 looks perfect on the back, but im thinking a bit big on the front. Looks like Ill only have about 3" of travel room on the front and will have to cut the fender lips off. So custom a-arms n vette spindle/hub/brake setup will look killer. Sounds easy but the drive axle issue is scaring the piss outta me lol. Do I make the suspension to fit off the shelf axles n get spacers for the wheels or do i put the suspension where I want it, and figure out the axle issue later? lol
Either way if I keep these wheels, they need to be the vette bolt pattern. I could weld in some alum rod into the bolt holes and have the CNC drill out my new bolt pattern. they do need some new lips (theyre plastic chrome lol) and a powdercoating. I did also have the crazy idea of buying some cheap 3 piece wheels, then making a new center section that looked like the original f40 star wheel. So id have 20" f 40 wheels in whatever offset/bs I want. Either ways not too much trouble but 4 20" diameter chunks o alum wouldnt be cheap.
The aluminum channel for the windows should be here soon so I can get cracking on that, still working on trunk fb
My AD355 has panels pulled from genuine Ferrari panels. It has the rear wheel well cut in 3" forward so that it matches the Fiero wheelbase. It's hard to notice the wheel well move but after I found out that you don't have to cut the Fiero in half you can just extend the engine cradle I kind of wish that O had gone that way.
It looks much better if you get the correct wheelbase. 3" is enough to throw the whole lines off wack.
I hear ya but 3" isnt going to make any difference once the cars parts are all proportional to each other. If it was a foot or two short yeah but im not worried about 3" lol. Getting close to being done w the fb on the roof trim finally, just some small details to tidy up.
Well, if you are going to downscale the whole thing, then you may get it to look nice. But that is a lot of work and I'm not even sure it's entirely possible. I will definitely be watching though.
quote
Originally posted by shemdogg:
what an awesome set o wheels and what a difference theyll make. I absolutely love the car waaay more now and am more motivated to finish. My wife said the car looks so good i could leave it the way it is. nah ill finish it
shem
I much prefer the original F40 wheels or something similar. These modern wheels don't match the classic style of the car and point out even more that it's a replica. Also if you are going to downscale the whole body to achieve the correct proportions of the F40, you should not be getting bigger wheels. You should get smaller wheels than the original F40's.
But you are doing some great work and seems to be very creative in your ways to approach it. I'm watching closely and wish you success.
Originally posted by Rn2016: I much prefer the original F40 wheels or something similar. These modern wheels don't match the classic style of the car and point out even more that it's a replica. Also if you are going to downscale the whole body to achieve the correct proportions of the F40, you should not be getting bigger wheels. You should get smaller wheels than the original F40's.
But you are doing some great work and seems to be very creative in your ways to approach it. I'm watching closely and wish you success.
I have to agree---- The modern wheel although nice scream KIT CAR. If you still have the originals either have them professional polished or perhaps powder coated gold.
Sorry, posted a picture of a model car instead of a real f40 but you get the idea. Just google f40 with gold wheels and enjoy.
[This message has been edited by steve308 (edited 11-28-2017).]
I did also have the crazy idea of buying some cheap 3 piece wheels, then making a new center section that looked like the original f40 star wheel. So id have 20" f 40 wheels in whatever offset/bs I want. Either ways not too much trouble but 4 20" diameter chunks o alum wouldnt be cheap.
It looks much better if you get the correct wheelbase. 3" is enough to throw the whole lines off wack.
You may have misunderstood my post. The body lines on my AD355 are 100% accurate. I'm fairly sure that no one will notice the relocation of the rear wheel well. That being said I might do the 3" cradle extension if I were doing it over again. I could still do it if I wanted to go to the effort of relocating the wheel well.
You may have misunderstood my post. The body lines on my AD355 are 100% accurate. I'm fairly sure that no one will notice the relocation of the rear wheel well. That being said I might do the 3" cradle extension if I were doing it over again. I could still do it if I wanted to go to the effort of relocating the wheel well.
I don't understand how the wheelbase can be shorter without affecting the lines. Either you have a longer rear overhang or the whole car is squashed in. Either way it affects the design. Could you post a side picture? I would be interested in seeing how you kept it accurate while using the wrong wheelbase.
not diggin the stock rims at all now, gold rims look dumb to me, silver only on this car in red. red n gold looks like some crappy cali foosball team
making the spoiler thinner made a yuuge diff
The going will be slow from here now its small details to work on while I get my rim/suspension combo worked out. Going w 18" wheels, 20s r fine out back but way too big up front. Back axles not centered to the kit. Those 3" throw it all off
If it must look just like the Ferrari, then the only most noticeable thing that mainly looks off to me is the back end is a bit longer and angled up more.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-30-2017).]
If it must look just like the Ferrari, then the only thing that manily looks off to me is the back end is a bit longer and angled up more.
Yes, the rear overhang is too long. This is what I was trying to explain to the gentleman with the F355 replica. There is no way around it. If the wheelbase is shorter than the real thing, even just 3", you either end up with an overlong overhang or you end up with a squashed car. Since stretching the Fiero only 3" seems so easy and since a kit takes so much work to do, why not stretch the 3" and have one less thing to fight to get the right look? It seems like it would be worth the effort to me.
Here I made the overhand shorter at the rear. It looks more proportioned but now it looks like a cute little car. It's squashed and it loses a bit of the long rear starting from the B pillar that mid rear engine supercars have.
I did this on paint, so not a nice job or anything. But enough to get the idea:
And besides shortening it and also get it to not ramp up, I think you rear is also more round. The F40 rear is a pretty straight cut down.
[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 11-30-2017).]
I like what u did shortening the rear n dig all the posted pics, lets me know got that roof n trunk line looking good. Im used to looking at it from 2 feet away cuz the mustangs parked next door.
I dont mind the 3" on the back, too much work to move the motor/harness/cooling/fuel- nah. Its a kit car n peeps will always talk sh*t on something. I dont care. Totally agree the back on mine angles up, I didnt notice that before the first pic was posted. It always did look funny from the back. i dont wanna cut up the trunk lid, theres tons of metal reinforcement there, i could however chop the front edge at a sharper angle to lower the tilt of the whole schebang. Got loaded n broke out the grinder
got the rear to sit 2" lower. Looks much different in person, pics dont do it justice- looks the same
When got it shot what a turd lol this little turd o mine, im gonna make it shine, make it shine make it shine make it shine shem
Shem, been watching this project and you are willing to get the tools out and go to work. Big improvements! I know people have been bugging you a bit, so I have to say the rear clip is much improved. But, if you just got the rear wheel well radius uniform all the way round, (like the front) it will be perfect. Just saying, but after all it's your car and I'm loving it!
The car looks great! You are doing fabulous work. I have been working on a stock wheelbase Countach for a lot of years now. I have used many a trick to compensate for the shorter length of the car. Some required cutting and sanding, as you very adeptly jumped on right away. However, some tricks are much more subtle and are used as optical illusions. Or a better way to say it is to distract the eye of the onlooker away from the problem area in question. I have found that in some cases the best way to do that is to direct the eye focus someplace else. For example, I installed metal grill induction vents in a similar location to yours. Just in front of the lower rear wheel well. Even though the real car didn't have these in my case, I think it does a nice job of distraction by calling attention to itself in a tasteful way. You may want to consider painting your lower inductions black. It may have the same effect. Just something to consider.
Keep up the great work!
P.S. If you like the black wheels (they look hot to me) then stick to your guns. I know the Ferrari style ones look more authentic but remember this is YOUR car. Everyone will have an opinion on what to do. You seemed like you where so psyched to have them and then got talked out of it. I know plenty will tell you they scream kitcar. Trust me...these are people who have never gone to the mall in a kitcar like ours. People will love it either way. The important thing is that YOU love it brother!
Nobodys buggin me I dont mind constructive criticism
Appreciate the kudos!
Def gonna get the rear wheel well lined up, and maybe fill it in closer to the tire when i get my wheels
Nobody but me talked me outta those black wheels but me. They were never going to fit 5x130, and waaay too big in the front. I just wanted to see how new style wheels would look. The 20s are too big it makes the car look short.
I hear ya about distracting the eye, but really 95% of people wont know that extra 3" isnt possed to be there. The right size, right stanced wheel will be all the distraction. Either way its gonna be a sweet lookin ride when done.
still got tons o small details to work out, then finish the door windows. Hafta do that at the machine shop n I have no free time- works insane right now
N yes I love it, im building it for me, n im gonna keep it
its just gonna take awhile to finish polishing, thats a huge turd lol
N a polished turd (nicer kit than mine tho)- that things been on there forever. The best a kit can look w amidas interior https://sfbay.craigslist.or...itle/6396138773.html that nose is yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggggggggggeeeee
Nobodys buggin me I dont mind constructive criticism
Appreciate the kudos!
Def gonna get the rear wheel well lined up, and maybe fill it in closer to the tire when i get my wheels
Nobody but me talked me outta those black wheels but me. They were never going to fit 5x130, and waaay too big in the front. I just wanted to see how new style wheels would look. The 20s are too big it makes the car look short.
I hear ya about distracting the eye, but really 95% of people wont know that extra 3" isnt possed to be there. The right size, right stanced wheel will be all the distraction. Either way its gonna be a sweet lookin ride when done.
still got tons o small details to work out, then finish the door windows. Hafta do that at the machine shop n I have no free time- works insane right now
N yes I love it, im building it for me, n im gonna keep it
its just gonna take awhile to finish polishing, thats a huge turd lol
N a polished turd (nicer kit than mine tho)- that things been on there forever. The best a kit can look w amidas interior https://sfbay.craigslist.or...itle/6396138773.html that nose is yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggggggggggeeeee
As usual no full on side pictures. Only 3/4 pictures. Pretty much every for sale add of a replica on stock Fiero frame never posts a side picture. Because that gives away the shorter wheelbase. I think it's a way of misleading people. If anybody is driving to see it they should show it. If I wouldn't know about the problems that Fiero replicas have with the wheelbase, and would drive any longer amount to see a car, and found out it looks like a gokart from the side when I got there, I would be really angry and I would let him know it too. Just be honest. Not too much to ask in business.
I think with the mods you have done and are doing your car will look much nicer when finished.
I have been watching the progress and you are doingsome great work. For your 3" question, I have some thoughts. I found a couple things with these F40 kits on Fieros that throw me off.
The height of the F40 doors/sides on these kits are taller than the original so the side looks bigger and that catches people's eye.
The rear quarter section between the rear door jamb and rear wheel looks too short
The front nose on these kits is just too long.
To address those items, it takes an enormous amount of work as all the panels are curved etc. Also, frame wise, it is just impossible in some cases.
You have done an amazing job on the front nose to address that item. Looks great and really improves the look.
The height of the sides is a tougher egg to crack. It ca be done by raising the rocker panel by about 1.5" and shortening the Fiero door and quarters by the same amount. You need to put a new door jamb plate in place and a new door rubber seal mounting tab but it can be done. I did that on my 355 project on a Fiero so the rockers were not too low. A lot of work but possible
The last one for the rear quarter. You can address bunch of that area by moving your cradle back a couple inches easily without cutting frames etc. by moving the cradle mounting points and keeping the stock cradle mount position. You then cut the rear quarter area just behind the lower side scoop and move the full rear quarter back the same amount to centre the wheelwell. You can also make a call at that time to lengthen the side scoops as they are also a bit short but again, more work involved.
Without shortening the sides you will always have a slightly taller car and that proportion will be out but not that big of deal. Lengthening the rear quarter does make a big difference in the side look as it helps flow in all the slight differences in the car side height, length etc. and flows a bit better) The major issue with this rear quarter lengthen, you need to deal with the rather sloped angles etc. of the rear engine plexi cover. Make a call on lengthening the area in front of the rear hatch or rearrange the slope of the rear glass to accommodate the new angles with the extra length.
All options but nothing is free as it is all work. I took a side shot and added the area i am talking about and will get a pic up here later with PIP so you can see what I am talking about.
Everything you are doing is great so keep it up. Good luck and keep posting updates.
Originally posted by 355Fiero: The last one for the rear quarter. You can address bunch of that area by moving your cradle back a couple inches easily without cutting frames etc. by moving the cradle mounting points and keeping the stock cradle mount position. You then cut the rear quarter area just behind the lower side scoop and move the full rear quarter back the same amount to centre the wheelwell.
You have some good ideas to address the problem areas. But I'm not sure I understood the above. How can you move the cradle mounting points while keeping the stock cradle mount position? I'm thinking that you will have to cut and weld something here in the process? If cutting and welding is involved, is it really that much easier than just stretching the chassis already to gain the exact 3" needed? I'm thinking I totally misunderstood what you meant.
The way to get a 3" or less stretch on a cradle is to move the mounting points on the cradle itself forward by the 3". The frame mounting points remain the same and the cradle adjusts. It is WAY easier to move cradle mounting points than it is to move frame mounting points by cutting and stretching the frame. In the end with a frame stretch, you end up needing to add material to the front of the cradle anyway to stretch the front cradle mounts forward.
It has been proven that if you are using a stock Fiero engine drive line, you don't even need to remove the trunk firewall. It is just quite close to it so most people do.
I had thought a couple times about doing an F40 build but have enough other projects that I want to do more.... Finish my 308 replica build and then start on my custom Countach build.....
The way to get a 3" or less stretch on a cradle is to move the mounting points on the cradle itself forward by the 3". The frame mounting points remain the same and the cradle adjusts. It is WAY easier to move cradle mounting points than it is to move frame mounting points by cutting and stretching the frame. In the end with a frame stretch, you end up needing to add material to the front of the cradle anyway to stretch the front cradle mounts forward.
It has been proven that if you are using a stock Fiero engine drive line, you don't even need to remove the trunk firewall. It is just quite close to it so most people do.
I had thought a couple times about doing an F40 build but have enough other projects that I want to do more.... Finish my 308 replica build and then start on my custom Countach build.....
Thanks Don
Thanks for the explanation.
OK. So I was correct. It does involve cutting and welding. I guess you do need to cut the mounting points on the cradle from where they are. I wouldn't think they are bolted on? And then weld them forward by 3". Is that right? Just trying to picture the whole thing.
But so the cradle has extra length on the front that you can move the mounting points? Or do you need to add a piece to the cradle's front? If not, then it indeed sounds quite a bit easier than stretching the frame.
But what about structural strength? The cradle was not engineered to sit so far backwards. Will that affect the car's dynamics?
This would effective increase the wheelbase without increasing the length of the car, as the cradle would only move within the frame. So if the length needed to be increased, a frame extension would have to be added after the trunk. If you do that, you have basically stretched the frame without stretching the frame, if you know what I mean. Unless you don't need the extra length.
The rear cradle mounts are rubber based inserts that hold the cradle between two pieces, up and down. You add material to the front side of the metal cradle mounting frame and move the hole forward by the amount you want to shift the cradle backwards. You can either get solid aluminium mounts from Rodney to increase stiffness or reuse stock mounts. I, actually, welded new solid mounts to the tops of my cradle rear mounting platforms so I have a solid surface to mate to the frame.
The front cradle mount is cut just behind the mount hole in the cradle and material is added to the cradle frame rails to move the front mount forward by 3" as well. In all the work that many people have done over the years, there hasn't been any issues with the extended front cradle mounts being wieaker or introducing twist as the length is pretty minimal. The longer stretches for Lambos etc. where 10 or 11" is required, it is recommended to do reinforcing in the cradle.
With this setup, the trunk area remains the same so you are also correct that the support area behind the trunk in Shemdogg's pics above, would also be moved back 3" to support the rear hatch and bumper etc.
The reasoning around doing the cradle itself is that you don't introduce fundamental changes to the frame itself. You will have different geometry for suspension etc. with the 3" stretch but again, history has proved that moving the rear back by 3" hasn't introduced any noticeable issues with the ride or cornering.
The bigger changes on these projects tends to be the changes in the suspension geometry by widening the control arms by several inches to put the wheels in the proper location in the wheel wells. This introduces a big difference depending on width increase and Bloozberry has an outstanding thread somewhere on here going through a very extensive evaluation of suspension geometry and what he did to improve the suspension dynamics. That change is not for the light of heart though.
