Shortly I'll make a post similar to this one (the one I did back in March) that shows all of the details of the '88 bars. The only real difference in performance is that the front bar will max out at about 360 lbs per 5 deg of twist. Should be plenty stiff for racing. During the testing I noticed that the combination of the improved '88 suspension with the reduced roll felt really good and predictable. In my opinion, I'll take predictable over raw performance any day. Improved performance is only as good as what the dirver can control.
Having said that, I did get the front sway bar instruction manual complete and I have the first front and rear hardware kit complete. I would like to get these kits on someone's '88 that will do some performance driving as well as put some miles on it (street). Since this would be the first kit sold, I will sell it at a substanital discount with the anticipation of feedback.
I am looking for a relatively stock car with a well maintained or recently replaced suspension. If you are interested please sent me a PM or email. We can discuss the options (bar rates) and what will work best for that car and driver. Once I know that all is well with some real world miles on the bars, I'll feel more comfortable and be ready to sell them.
As for the "test" car I am looking for, I do NOT anticipate any risk. I have spent may hours calculating, fitting and modifying these bars to make absolutely sure that there will be no issues. I did this on a stock geometry. I then simulated suspension movement while the car was on the lift to see where each component moved and if there were any near misses. I adjusted accordingly. I went through this process 2 or 3 times changing the geometry until they were optimized.
So... I have every confidence that the first set sold for the "test" car will be fine. If not, I will pay for shipping, give a full refund and take the bars (and information) back.
Anyone interested?
Below is the chart showing the recently developed rates for the 1988 Suspension version of the Adjustable Sway Bar Kits.
Please let me know if you have any comments or questions.
I have a taker on the "prototype" front and rear '88 bar kits. After I gather some information and it is to my satisfaction, I will begin taking orders for the '88 bars.
Just a reminder..... I am currently taking orders for the '84 to '87 sway bars. Lead time is about 3 to 4 weeks.
I don't have an '88 but I've been following your '88 development line anyway because I like this suspension stuff.
Your graph doesn't show the stock '88 bar plotted and I was curious how it measured up as compared to your performance rear bars, also to get an idea on the handling balance and how the settings would affect it from stock bars. If you have data on the stock rear bar it might be useful information to include.
John Stricker
PS: Yes, you'll get my order this winter, next season the race car will be sporting HHP bars front and rear.
quote
Originally posted by R Runner:
I have a taker on the "prototype" front and rear '88 bar kits. After I gather some information and it is to my satisfaction, I will begin taking orders for the '88 bars.
Just a reminder..... I am currently taking orders for the '84 to '87 sway bars. Lead time is about 3 to 4 weeks.
I don't have an '88 but I've been following your '88 development line anyway because I like this suspension stuff.
Your graph doesn't show the stock '88 bar plotted and I was curious how it measured up as compared to your performance rear bars, also to get an idea on the handling balance and how the settings would affect it from stock bars. If you have data on the stock rear bar it might be useful information to include.
John Stricker
PS: Yes, you'll get my order this winter, next season the race car will be sporting HHP bars front and rear.
John,
That's a good question. Using my measurement method (apples to apples) I measure 185 lbs for the stock '88 front and about 85 lbs for the stock '88 rear. This is a big improvement from the '84 to '87 suspension. The front on these suspensions is only about 90 to 100 lbs.
Basically my kit can be set up to be about twice as stiff as stock, but more importantly it can be balanced for maximum performance. I have found that with the stock suspension geometryand the pickup points for the endlinks I use, bars need to apply approximately an equal amount of front and rear force. In other words, If you set the front to 100 lbs, the rear needs to be 100 lbs to get approximately a balanced "4 wheel drift" set up with neutral acceleration.
Hope that helps.
Also..... Thank you for your support. It hasn't gone un-noticed.
[This message has been edited by R Runner (edited 09-19-2007).]
I am running 88 rear with 84-87 front. What do you recommend? Do you need a test mule there?
Rick
As I mentioned in the post above, the front and rear need to be approximately the same. That is lucky because it means that a car with an '87 front and '88 rear "stock" geometry should be equal as well (I would actually suggest increasing the rear by about 5 to 10%). It would be a good test for sure. However you may notice that the '88 rear bar does not go as high (lbs) as the '87. I can fix that. The '87 / '88 combination is probably the best setup if you want the better geometry with the stiffest bars available. I could get you in the 475 lb range if you so desired (serious competition ). I can make the '88 rear bar go much higher, but it is useless without a balanced '88 front bar ON THE '88 MODEL. With an '87 front end, much less roll is possible (from my bars).
I'm behind this 100%, handling is the most important feature of the car to me.
I don't particularly care for ride quality, harsh is fine. Would you recommend getting the Performance bar over the Comp bar? That's the route I was thinking. My suspension is relatively stock (86) with poly everywherre. I'll be getting lowered before the bars come however. Tires are stock. I think it would make sense to go wider and thinner with either bar choice, right?
I'm behind this 100%, handling is the most important feature of the car to me.
I don't particularly care for ride quality, harsh is fine. Would you recommend getting the Performance bar over the Comp bar? That's the route I was thinking. My suspension is relatively stock (86) with poly everywherre. I'll be getting lowered before the bars come however. Tires are stock. I think it would make sense to go wider and thinner with either bar choice, right?
Thanks!
Steve
I would recommend the performance rear bar because it has the widest range. This will give you more ability to make changes. The front bar is a toss up, but it sounds like you may want to go with the competition front. This will allow you in the future (if you want) to purchase a front sport bar (bar only) to make the ride softer. With those two bars available in the front, the car can be changed through the entire range of "anti-sway" levels. We can discuss it further when you get closer to an order date. At that time you will know all the details of the suspension (lowered, wheel size, etc...). Then again, it is always fun to plan.
That's interesting (but not that surprising) that the DIFFERENCE between the F/R '88 bars is about 100# and the Difference between the NO rear bar/front bar pre '88 is 100#. I guess no matter what, GM really wanted that little car to push in the corners.
Now I'm even more curious, did the '88's without the rear bar have the same size front bar as the '88's that had a rear bar??? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Might have to dust off the parts book tonight.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by R Runner:
John,
That's a good question. Using my measurement method (apples to apples) I measure 185 lbs for the stock '88 front and about 85 lbs for the stock '88 rear. This is a big improvement from the '84 to '87 suspension. The front on these suspensions is only about 90 to 100 lbs.
Basically my kit can be set up to be about twice as stiff as stock, but more importantly it can be balanced for maximum performance. I have found that with the stock suspension geometryand the pickup points for the endlinks I use, bars need to apply approximately an equal amount of front and rear force. In other words, If you set the front to 100 lbs, the rear needs to be 100 lbs to get approximately a balanced "4 wheel drift" set up with neutral acceleration.
Hope that helps.
Also..... Thank you for your support. It hasn't gone un-noticed.
That's interesting (but not that surprising) that the DIFFERENCE between the F/R '88 bars is about 100# and the Difference between the NO rear bar/front bar pre '88 is 100#. I guess no matter what, GM really wanted that little car to push in the corners.
Now I'm even more curious, did the '88's without the rear bar have the same size front bar as the '88's that had a rear bar??? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Might have to dust off the parts book tonight.
John Stricker
I noticed the 100 lb difference also. That is why it was easy for me to remember. A for the '88 front with out the rear bar.... I don't know, but I am guessing that the bar is about 100 lbs. The geometry is different between the suspensions, but basically the only anti-sway the added to the improved '88 suspension is an 85 to 90 lb increase in roll stiffness. Not the balance.
Again, keep in mind that the attachment points and geometry of the suspension have a great deal to do with how effective the bar is.
I just found this topic last night. This looks like a really good product. I too have an '87 front , '88 rear. I was looking to go with a widetrack suspension. Can I get the center bar longer or would the side bars need to be different?
Yes, the reaction arm both horizontal and vertical have a lot to do with how much force the bar exerts. From the sound of your posts, you're trying as best you can to make "apples to apples" comparisons, although yours do mount differently, to give an idea of what to expect at various mounting points.
The results on a quick search through the parts book is "inconclusive".
The parts book shows one, and only one, bar for the front suspension. That would make that an understeering son of a gun, I would think, without the rear bar. That said, I also went back and looked at the 84-87 and they show one, and only one, bar for that, listed as a 23 mm. That is .905", or just over 7/8". These are the most common bars but 2 of my 7 chassis/cars have a front bar that were 19-20mm. I think they were supposed to be 20 mm (.78" or just a touch over 3/4"). When I found the first one I thought I'd just made a mistake measuring it but then I found a second. One of these was on an '84 and the other an '85. I've never found a "small" bar on an '86 or '87.
It actually gave us some minor tunability. We put one of the 23 mm bars in front and 20 mm bars in back and that helped the push quite a bit, but we still had more body roll than we liked on the autocross course and the car tended to break away on long sweepers. It was very odd. You'd go into a high speed sweeper and the faster you went, the more wheel you had to give it until it broke loose in the back. It had a LOT of body lean. It felt like snap throttle oversteer but without a throttle change, if you follow me. We took the front bar off and moved it to the back and put the 1" Adco bar that I picked up at Ed's swap meet and that helped quite a bit, but gave us our understeer back. Still nowhere near as bad as stock, but it's pretty tight. It is quite drivable at speed now, though. You'll see how Chris was taking the corners in the video when I get it sent to you.
Your bars are going to be great to balance the car out after we get the new motor in. Right now the car is on the hoist, motor and cradle less, so a sway bar isn't up on the list of priorities, but when we get THAT done, I'll give you a call and we can talk about what you think we need.
I just found this topic last night. This looks like a really good product. I too have an '87 front , '88 rear. I was looking to go with a widetrack suspension. Can I get the center bar longer or would the side bars need to be different?
Welcome to the forum! This is a great place for fiero information of ALL types.
Define "widetrack" suspension. Will the stock A-arms be used? Wheel offset can be used (but has advantages and disadvantages) to widen a track. If the stock A-arms are used, there is a good chance that the currently developed bars can be used.
Sorry widetrack is a bit vague, I will be using longer links in the rear ('88) and C6 Vette wheels with no adaptors so I will not be increasing with offset. Thank you for welcoming to the site. I have been a ghost for quite a while and once I saw this product I decided it was time to register. By the way 383 LT4 in progress.
Sorry widetrack is a bit vague, I will be using longer links in the rear ('88) and C6 Vette wheels with no adaptors so I will not be increasing with offset. Thank you for welcoming to the site. I have been a ghost for quite a while and once I saw this product I decided it was time to register. By the way 383 LT4 in progress.
Frank
Sounds like a killer upgrade. If you are using similar end link mounting points and there is enough clearence to the axle, then the answer is "yes" a bar can be made for your widetrack. Lengthening the bar would be true (which unfortunately there is an extra charge for since it is custom) but hopefully you could use the same arms. I could calculate a bar rate to use and then measure it once you made the purchase (before shipment) to verify the calculation but more importantly tell you the actual force applied by the bar and what needs to be up front for balance.
Once you get the suspension assembled, send me some pictures and I will try to help. I can't say for sure, but I think I can help.
What about the people who have swapped 88 cradles into their earlier cars. Can we just buy your 84-87 front bar and the 88 rear and expect it to work?
That's the idea. After the testing on the '88 bar is complete, I'll look into an application similar to the one you are describing. I know it can be done with the kits I have available, it is just a matter of sizing the rear bar. Again, I feel very confident about doing this, but the proof is in the pudding.
That's the idea. After the testing on the '88 bar is complete, I'll look into an application similar to the one you are describing. I know it can be done with the kits I have available, it is just a matter of sizing the rear bar. Again, I feel very confident about doing this, but the proof is in the pudding.
Paul
Sounds good. I'll be looking for a post from you saying the 88 rear bars are ready to sell. The car is still being built at the moment so I can wait for a while. I will need to test anyway to figure what is needed. It will be a street car that will see some auto-X. Thanks, I'll check back often.
Oh, one other question. I don't know if you mentioned it already but do you use the stock 88 sway bar brackets for this install? If so I will need to pick up a set (probably from Held ~70 bucks). Thanks again for offering these. I love the adjustability.
Sounds good. I'll be looking for a post from you saying the 88 rear bars are ready to sell. The car is still being built at the moment so I can wait for a while. I will need to test anyway to figure what is needed. It will be a street car that will see some auto-X. Thanks, I'll check back often.
Oh, one other question. I don't know if you mentioned it already but do you use the stock 88 sway bar brackets for this install? If so I will need to pick up a set (probably from Held ~70 bucks). Thanks again for offering these. I love the adjustability.
Check out page 3 for some pictures showing the mounting of the rear '88 bar. That may help.
Anyone have a set of 88 rear sway bar brackets that they want to let go of?
Are you talking about the bar bushing brackets? My kit comes with a new set. You should not need anything except a good cradle and a good end link mounting location. Or are you trying to do somthing different?
