Very interesting stuff. (aka BUMP)

Bump

Hiya R Runner

A couple of questions for ya:

If, because of cost, I can only afford kit, my thoughts are that I would go with a rear sport kit, but am not sure how worthwhile
that would be with the stock front bar. What are your thoughts?

What would be the likely shipping cost to the United Kingdom for one kit? (We can all have a laugh about this one... )

TIA

Paul

My only road car, but only used a couple of times a month, so when I use it, I like to USE IT!!!
85 SE V6 3sp Auto 14" Hi-tech alloys, WS6 suspension, no cat/Borla exhaust

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The Madscanner
'85 SE 2M6 Auto

Madscanner... Paul has said that it's very worthwhile. To keep it balanced you'll want to keep the setting pretty low until you upgrade the front bar as well.

I sure could have used a set a couple weeks back.

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Dana Mitchell
Member of the Gateway Fiero Club
88 GT Red w/ 5-Speed,86 SE Red w/ Black 3.2L w/ T-440,87 GT Blue w/ 5-Speed, 87 GT Maroon w/ Silver w/ Auto
95 Impala SS (SOLD), 95 Roadmaster Estate Wagon w/ Air Ride 2-Tone w/ Ghost Flames 07 2500HD Silverado Crew Cab 6.6L Duramax/Allison, 06 HHR (wife's ride), 91 CBR1000F Is that enough?.... Good there's more!

quote Originally posted by Madscanner: Hiya R Runner A couple of questions for ya: If, because of cost, I can only afford kit, my thoughts are that I would go with a rear sport kit, but am not sure how worthwhile that would be with the stock front bar. What are your thoughts? What would be the likely shipping cost to the United Kingdom for one kit? (We can all have a laugh about this one... )

TIA....

Yes it would help your car. As Fiero Freak pointed out it will not be as balanced as with an entire set. However it WILL limit the total body roll of your car and will gain more control of the back end (ie won't over shoot as much when weaving in and out of cones). In a steady state high speed curve the back wnd will tend to slide more but at higher limits. Again an overall improvement but not a balanced setup. If you like oversteer this may be a decent set up for you.

I'll check on the shipping. Do you have an address or code I can use to calculate shipping? You can PM it to me if you want.

Thank you.

Paul

[This message has been edited by R Runner (edited 11-20-2007).]

Hi

My post code is SW1A 2HB - if you need a postal town, you can use London.

My preference is for oversteer rather than understeer (which I already have plenty of - I'm dealing with that by tidying up the suspension, which seems to be pretty much untouched in 22 years. First step is installing the poly bushes I've got sitting on a shelf).

Thanks

Paul

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The Madscanner
'85 SE 2M6 Auto

PM Sent... BTW I tried the new numbers and the rate was even higher.

Paul, you have a PM From me about some bars.

John Stricker

To those that have purchased a set or those that have installed a sway bar or bars on the Fiero in general, I ask, is it worth it? I'm not saying the product's bad, I'm just examining the reasons why I may or may not want to purchase one or both. I've been thinking about it for a while, especially since my minor wreck (which doesn't seem so minor when I've been waiting a month and drove to several cities to get parts). I understand it will be more responsive etc., but is this really good for daily driving? I suppose my main questions are:

A. Any chance of these hitting speed bumps or bottoming out in any normal situations?
B. Will it improve the stiffness of the handling to the point that it will be less likely to slide? Any affect in rain or ice conditions (I admit, I've never installed a swaybar, so I might not know what I'm talking about)

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1986 SE V6, stock, auto, fastback. GT Trim and Body panels.

Paul can chime in here as well, but to answer your questions...........

A) Little to none. I have a couple of scuff marks on the Finale but my bar on there mounts lower than Pauls. The end links don't appear to be any lower than the WHEEL so even if you have a flat tire and run it completely off the rim, the links should not hit the ground by much, if any at all.

B) What a rear bar will do is loosen up (oversteer) the back end as compared to the stock, no bar condition. As delivered stock, the Fieros all have a HUGE amount of PUSH (understeer) built into them. What that means is that when you want to turn and you're approaching the limits of the tires, you have to put in very large amounts of steering wheel turn to get the car to actually turn. This is exaggerated even more under power. For our driving with our race car (MUCH lighter than a stock Fiero), a stock front bar mounted at the rear, with a stock front bar in place, makes the car a bit too loose, but it's still much better than stock, IMO. The addition of a rear bar will also make a huge difference on the amount of body lean the car exhibits in a turn.

As far as changes on rain and ice, on wet roads (water) you will have the same handling characteristics as dry, only things will happen sooner because you're reducing the traction available to the tires from the water. No jump that up even more if you're talking about snow and ice. The characteristics don't really change, but they just happen at a lower speed.

Ideally, you like the car set up nearly neutral and the adjustability of Paul's bars will let you play with it until you get the feel where you want it. On the race car, I preferred the feel of a larger than stock bar in the front (1" as opposed to about 7/8" stock) with a stock front bar (7/8") mounted in back. I just ordered a set of Paul's bars for the race car yesterday and I'm going with the competition rear bar and performance front bar, but this is for a race only car and would probably be too stiff for street use.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by PineyCreek: To those that have purchased a set or those that have installed a sway bar or bars on the Fiero in general, I ask, is it worth it? I'm not saying the product's bad, I'm just examining the reasons why I may or may not want to purchase one or both. I've been thinking about it for a while, especially since my minor wreck (which doesn't seem so minor when I've been waiting a month and drove to several cities to get parts). I understand it will be more responsive etc., but is this really good for daily driving? I suppose my main questions are: A. Any chance of these hitting speed bumps or bottoming out in any normal situations? B. Will it improve the stiffness of the handling to the point that it will be less likely to slide? Any affect in rain or ice conditions (I admit, I've never installed a swaybar, so I might not know what I'm talking about)

So, basically, it drastically tones down the understeer, and by upping the stiffness greatly increases the responsiveness of the car. However, it might make overcompensating in wet weather even easier because steering response would be increased...am I reading that right?

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1986 SE V6, stock, auto, fastback. GT Trim and Body panels.

More or less, yes.

The understeer is intentionally built into most American cars for a reason, most US drivers really aren't that good at it, and it helps to keep them out of trouble. The more neutral you get, the more demanding the car is on your skills.

I'm a little concerned by your term of "stiffness", though. The bars won't really make it RIDE a whole lot stiffer, they will limit the body roll drastically, keeping the weight more evenly distributed in the corners, that's the main function of the bars.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by PineyCreek: So, basically, it drastically tones down the understeer, and by upping the stiffness greatly increases the responsiveness of the car. However, it might make overcompensating in wet weather even easier because steering response would be increased...am I reading that right?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I'm a little concerned by your term of "stiffness", though. The bars won't really make it RIDE a whole lot stiffer, they will limit the body roll drastically, keeping the weight more evenly distributed in the corners, that's the main function of the bars. John Stricker

I think the term "stiffness" would apply to driving over a bump with the tires of one side of the car.

Good discussion....

Yes they do feel a little "more stiff" over a one wheel bump, but it is not really harsh. In fact, you will have a much rougher ride with a set of Koni's set full stiff than with these bars. Even the competition bars. I drive with a set of bars at about 325 lbs front and rear every day (20 miles each way). I easily have 7000 to 8000 miles on them in all types of weather. (not much snow). John is correct in what he has told you so far. Basically you need to drive a car to its limits and feel what is going on in the suspension to really enjoy what these bars will do. It is a night and day difference. Ask those who have them or have taken a ride with me.

As far as price goes, this is a inexpensive as they can get. I pay myself almost nothing for labor and the lion's share of the cost is in material. The equipment I start with grade "A" stuff intended for NASCAR and the like. The next system better is a cockpit adjustable bar for GT1 cars that runs about $1,500 BEFORE it is modified for the Fiero. Way overkill. The bars and arms I use are intended for GT1 (on a "budget") and GT2. Basically anything that goes fast on a road course. Go price race parts and you will see. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? I build these bars for the Fiero Community just to support those who want/need them. Basically I build a kit when it is requested. If you fabricate one of these kits yourself it will cost you more.

Think of it as putting a set of Wilwood brakes on your street car. Do you need them? No. But the improved performance is amazing.

quote Originally posted by R Runner: Think of it as putting a set of Wilwood brakes on your street car. Do you need them? No. But the improved performance is amazing.

I got to ride in Paul's car a while back, and I couldn't have said it any better. The difference between stock is night and day, even though he has a few more suspension bits over stock. Paul's car handled a lot better than my 88 GT fitted with poly and springs/shocks, those sway bars made all the difference They are a bargain, as far as I am concerned. Like I said, once I get another Fiero, I will be hitting you up for a set, hopefully by the end of next month!

Ok, so say I like to take turns quickly during my daily driving, but I suck on wet roads. Should I go with a rear bar, a front bar, or both? I'm not really going to race with this car (yet).

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1986 SE V6, stock, auto, fastback. GT Trim and Body panels.

quote Originally posted by PineyCreek: Ok, so say I like to take turns quickly during my daily driving, but I suck on wet roads. Should I go with a rear bar, a front bar, or both? I'm not really going to race with this car (yet).

Sorry it took so long to respond. Duty called. Anyway.....

The most affordable way to get a substantial improvement with a balanced car is to get and HHP Rear Sport bar to use with an Addco 1" front. The Sport bar kit at the lowest setting will be approximately balanced with the Addco front. You should be able to find one used pretty easily. This will put you at about 250 lbs as compared with 100 lbs stock. The lb force is the amount of force exerted by the arm of the bar on your suspension A-arm given that the other is stationary at 5 deg. of twist (a normal sway bar torque measurement). Later you may decide you want even less body roll. Since the HHP Rear sport bar has a range of about 260 lbs to 425 lbs, you could purchase an HHP Front performance bar to replace the Addco bar (sell it) and still have a balanced setup but now in the 375 lb range PLUS the ability to fine tune the balance. For a street car that is a fairly serious sway bar rate. My daily driver is set at about 325 lbs and as Topher_time posted, works pretty well even as a daily driver. In fact I just drove home tonight in the sleet and freezing rain. No problems. It does what you expect a well balanced car to do. I personally feel that the car is much more predictable with this setup. Again, my opinion... others may (will) vary.

I hope that helps.

Paul

[This message has been edited by R Runner (edited 12-07-2007).]

Merry Christmas Everyone!

I've installed the HHP rear bar on my LSJ ecotec fiero today during the full rear suspension mockup. I have to say they go in extreamly easy with the detachable arms.



Here shown at ride hieght.



Plenty of clearance with stock wheels.



I did exchange the red poly bushings for the black ones that came with Paul's bars just to match up with the rest of the bushings on the car already.

I can't wait to try them on the track.

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yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger

Thank you ccfiero350......

Just so everyone else knows, this gentleman will be doing the final, impartial testing. I am always trying to improve my bars, so his feed back (and anyone else who contributes to contructive feedback) is very important.

As they say, the proof is in the pudding...... ccfiero350, I encourage both positive and negitive posting.


Once he is done with the install and has some track time with the bars (and I become comfortable that they are ready), I'll make a post on this thread when the '88 style bars will be available.

Again, thank you for your help ccfiero350.

Bump...

Bump, and I sent you a pm Paul. I got another Fiero- only means 1 thing

quote Originally posted by topher_time: Bump, and I sent you a pm Paul. I got another Fiero- only means 1 thing

PM received and returned..... Thank you.

Bump.

quote Originally posted by R Runner: ...I'll make a post on this thread when the '88 style bars will be available.

You've got my attention! I tend to visit pretty infrequently, so perhaps you should send me a message when the '88 bars become available. Thanks.

Bryce

Basically I feel that the '88 kits are ready, but I am waiting for more verification on someone else's vehicle before releasing them.

Sorry for the delay.

Thank you very much for your interest.

I got a set of Paul's bars in for the race car and we put them on the other day.

All of the components are first rate. Paul uses POR on the painted surfaces so they should be well protected. All of the components you are going to need are included in the kit up to and including every nut, bolt, and washer. The only things that are reused are the front bracket bolts. All of the bolts and nuts are high grade and the Heims are first quality.

The instructions included are very clear with excellent pictures, although installation is simple. The only "issue" we had, and I forgot to mention this in my PM Paul, is that with the provided template to drill the holes in the cradle, the drivers side mounting would have put the hole too close to the back of the inside of the cradle to get a washer on the bolt on the inside. We had to move the template forward about 1/8" on both sides for clearance. We noticed it before we did any drilling, so it wasn't a big deal. I suspect it's the old "variation from one cradle to the next" issue since how that area is welded from the factory is not a critical area and ours was just a little closer than some others. I don't feel this is an issue with Paul's mounts, more of an issue with the cradles themselves.

I'm very happy with the bars and am looking forward to getting them on the track to see how they behave.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I got a set of Paul's bars in for the race car and we put them on the other day. All of the components are first rate. Paul uses POR on the painted surfaces so they should be well protected. All of the components you are going to need are included in the kit up to and including every nut, bolt, and washer. The only things that are reused are the front bracket bolts. All of the bolts and nuts are high grade and the Heims are first quality. The instructions included are very clear with excellent pictures, although installation is simple. The only "issue" we had, and I forgot to mention this in my PM Paul, is that with the provided template to drill the holes in the cradle, the drivers side mounting would have put the hole too close to the back of the inside of the cradle to get a washer on the bolt on the inside. We had to move the template forward about 1/8" on both sides for clearance. We noticed it before we did any drilling, so it wasn't a big deal. I suspect it's the old "variation from one cradle to the next" issue since how that area is welded from the factory is not a critical area and ours was just a little closer than some others. I don't feel this is an issue with Paul's mounts, more of an issue with the cradles themselves. I'm very happy with the bars and am looking forward to getting them on the track to see how they behave. John Stricker

Which bars did you go with?

John went with the competition rear and performance front.

Bump

BUMP!

and...

My sway bars came in today! Now I just need to find the right Fiero to put them in, anyone have an 85-86 SE V6 for sale?

Bump

Hey ccfiero350,

I like your 88 links!! Where can I buy them or are they custom made?


Thanks
Iwan

quote Originally posted by fiero-iwan: Hey ccfiero350, I like your 88 links!! Where can I buy them or are they custom made? Thanks Iwan

They come with my sway bar kit.

I'm building an Improved Touring SCCA '88 coupe, and would like to order a front/rear kit. Please let me know when they're for sale. Thanks.

Concerning the '88 bar kits.....

At this point, (and due to unfortunate issues beyond his control) I am still waiting for the feedback from the '88 swaybar trial. I know there are several out there waiting for these to be released. If you are interested in a set and it doesn't bother you that there may be some minor issues (instructions may need small changes, the front to rear balance may not be perfect per the chart and may need adjusting which can be done by the owner, etc.) I think we could work something out. Typically race parts are not returnable after they are tested, but for someone who is willing to trust my "untested" design, I willing to pay for shipping to return the kit for a full refund. If this interests anyone and you are going to install and test the bar withing 1 month of receiving it, please contact me via PM or email and we may be able to work something out for your application.

I am also willing to do this for '84 to '87 cars with '88 rear suspensions.

I would like to do one car of each type for "proving out". Naturally I want feedback.

Thank you.

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Paul

Pontiac prestiege.... Pontiac performance...... Pontiac POWER!
HHP Is back in business! Now selling Adjustable Sway bars: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/036556.html
For a full history of the Fiero SS: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/789315

Definatly interested in 88 front and rear kit !

I would not be able to provide feedback in driving just yet though, as First on the list are 3800scII + F40 trans and Corvette powerstearin install.
Hope that there is no interference with the bars and the above meantioned upgrades. For possible interferance issues allone I really would like to buy your bars. I would prefer to work around the bars when fabbig motormounts etc instead of having to redo the mounts because they interfere with the bar or other hardware.

When I start to drive my fiero on the nurburgring in Germany I'll want a set front and rear for sure. Are you familier with Nordschleife (old nurburg-ring)?? It is verry high speed but also not verry smooth, bumps need te be able to be solked up ,also mid-corner...

What bar setup would you recomend, and would you consider selling eventhough I will not be able to provide feedback on driving for quite some time ? LMK!
Oh , and ride comfort is not important to me but tires must stay in contact with the road at all times. The car has Eibach lowering springs in front and koni coilovers in the rear. Car is low, probably too low, so I'll be changing rodneys 1. inch drop balljoints for 1/2 inch or stock balljoints, or possibly shim te spring.

As for my question about the 88 links I was talking about the very nice suspension links that are not stock 88. Where to buy!! I Want!!


Iwan

My race car won't be ready for several months, I don't mind waiting till you feel the '88 kits are ready. I will be a buyer as soon as they're ready, however. Thanks, Doug

I'm not ignoring you guys.... Just short on time. I'll answer questions this weekend.

Thank you for understanding.....

Paul