Just a quick question: What is the reason why one of the lights is slightly lower than the other on the 9090 combo? Is it a clearance issue or? In one of the pics, it looks like the light is partially hidden by the hood. Could they be made in-line with each other?
Have these on my car, the product is fantastic. I will probably be buying another set in the near future for my next build. The light output is far better than stock with my 60/60s. Rick is great to deal with, stays in contact even after the sale to make sure the customer is happy.
Originally posted by G-Man: What is the reason why one of the lights is slightly lower than the other on the 9090 combo? Is it a clearance issue or?
Yes It is a clearance issue with the 90mm Hellas. The low beam is quite long and almost inline with the wear pads on the underside of the door. My buckets have strut (I call it the lifting arm) that prevents the back of the module from dragging.
The 60mm modules actually have larger optics in a more compact design. I was able to get the bucket shorter and the modules level. I could redesign the 9090 to do away with the elevated high beam, but I really wasn't planning on it.
Edit- I have now created a new version of the 9090 that lowers the high beam module. If you like the look of the 90s, these are available.
The 60mm modules are projectors superior in light quality compared to the 90mm. The light is much more even and both high and low are projectors. The bulb is 9005 which can be legally swapped with a 9011 halogen infrared
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Originally posted by G-Man: In one of the pics, it looks like the light is partially hidden by the hood.
Yup, The 90mm Hella low beam projector has a 45mm lens. The rest of the diameter is filled with a shiny beauty ring that does nothing. I was able to lower the fixture without affecting the beam
I have now countersunk the holes for the adjusters. It is a much cleaner look I am happy with.
I was unhappy with the Phillips head adjusters Hella provided. It was too easy to tear the heads up. I replaced them with M5 SS 4mm Alan bolts. Much easier to turn the lower adjusters with this set-up
Let's talk about HID in my buckets. I have the ability to mix and match fixtures and their associated mounting systems. The limitation we face with pop-up lights is front to back space. And remember, you still have to be able to change your bulbs when they burn out.
I have been using Hella fixtures exclusively for several reasons. 1) Quality and durability. This is the good stuff. 2) Weatherproof. My design (and F1Fs) is an "exposed to the elements" configuration. If you go to theretrofitsource.com, you will find all their fixtures need to be installed inside a retrofitted composite headlamp.
I was thinking of using Hella HID capsules. (from what I understood, they're as weatherproof as the Halogen modules, but I could be wrong.) I'm more interested in light output, than looks. So I'll let you take the lead on if you thing 60mm, or 90mm HID modules would work best. (or Bi-HID modules, where the same bulb does low and high beam. - it may look cool in addition to a dedicated high beam bulb)
I don't know if Hella makes HID high beam capsules, or if the additional cost would be worth it. From time to time I drive on an unlit dirt road, and I would appreciate the additional light output to spot the occasional wildlife. The further both the low beams, and/or the high beams reach, the better.
Speaking of cost: How much would costs increase when I upgrade to Hella HID modules over the Halogen modules?
I have to say, I'm a bit confused with the many models of HID headlamps that Hella offers. - Do they differ in specs? I understand the difference between Bi-Xenon (HID) and Low beam -, or High beam only, but beyond that I'm lost.
Sorry, please don't misunderstand me. I spoke with them and found them very knowledgeable and helpful. I would really like to do business with them. Unfortunately what they carry will not work for me.
There is so much forum discourse on the HID subject and many venders on the bandwagon. Information to make your head swim. HID is not new technology. It is more complex than Incandescent Bulbs with fillaments, but much more efficient and longer life. Brighter, less wattage, less heat..... Modern technology has made the manufacture of electronic ballasts affordable.
The issue between HID and Quartz Halogen arises due to the difference in the size and shape of the light sources. The arc inside an HID capsule fills the entire volume compared to that of a small filament in a bulb. Quality optics are specific and not interchangeable.
Originally posted by Austrian Import: I was thinking of using Hella HID capsules. (from what I understood, they're as weatherproof as the Halogen modules, but I could be wrong.)
Hella sources their capsules from Phillips and OSRAM. I have been told that the Phillips base and globe interface is better designed and more durable. This is a very big issue with off road systems. The Fiero issue is the opening and closing movement of a pop-up headlight.
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Originally posted by Austrian Import: I don't know if Hella makes HID high beam capsules, or if the additional cost would be worth it. From time to time I drive on an unlit dirt road, and I would appreciate the additional light output to spot the occasional wildlife. The further both the low beams, and/or the high beams reach, the better.
HID lighting does not cycle on and off well. Yes, modern systems are able to "re-strike" quickly, but doing so will shorten the life greatly. This is the whole reason Bi-Xenon fixtures were developed. Low beam projectors require a "cut-off" shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Chinese)
A Bi-Xenon Module has solenoid that moves the shield in and out of the beam between the lens and reflector Hit your brights, the shield drops out. It is essentially a modern dual beam and here is were I see the limitation. Just like the stock Fiero Dual Sealed Beam, the Bi-Xenon uses the same reflector for both low and high. It is and optical compromise between the two distinctly different needs. I suspect the pattern will lean more toward a broad low beam rather than a focused high beam.
Not to worry, we can have our cake and eat it too. A Full Time Low HID coupled with a HIR high beam will be the ticket
[This message has been edited by hairballrm (edited 04-23-2011).]
Originally posted by Macs86GT . . . . . in a different thread:
Do the 60 mm buckets sit lower then the 90mm? just curious.
Yes the 60mm is shorter than the 90mm. The origional 9090s had the high and low beam at different elevations. It gave them a "sad" or "droopy" look. Recently, I went back and lowered the high beam in the 9090 by 10mm. That allowed me to lower the inboard height (high beam and tallest part of the bucket) by 10mm. The 6060 is still about 5mm shorter
Correct. I would make similar to a MINI Cooper system. Where low beam is HID, and high beam is halogen. The HID lowbeam stays on, while the high beam is toggled. (as you said, HID's don't like being toggled on-off-on)
Even if the High beam is HID I would leave the low beam on at the same time.
^The above talks about having separate bulbs/projectors for each beam.
The mirror solution works pretty well as well, but if we have the space, why not use 2 projector lenses. Even if one is a strictly high beam, and the other is a Bi-Xenon setup, it would be neat.
From the measurements, have you been able to narrow it down to different model numbers that would fit. (and what they are labelled as?)
What is the "Mirror solution"? I can entertain the geometry involved, but please save me the burnt neurons. Has anyone built something like that?
These are the fixtures I mentioned before 90mm Bi-Xenon 90mm or 90mm HID Low Beam I am confident I can fit the low beam only and potentially the bi-xenon, but again I need to do it in real life.
Sorry, I meant the shield that blocks of the high beam. I sometimes refer to it as a mirror mistakenly.
The other high beam solution I've seen is where the lens physically moves up and down.
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Originally posted by hairballrm: I can entertain the geometry involved, but please save me the burnt neurons. Has anyone built something like that?
I think I see what you were thinking of, based on my bad description. Where you thinking of something like a vertical light, that is mounted in the cavity below the light, and a 90* mirror that moves the light forward? I think that would be a great idea for doing lighting in a confined space, but I think we'll let lighting manufacturers like Hella figure out how to do lights like that.
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Originally posted by hairballrm: These are the fixtures I mentioned before 90mm Bi-Xenon 90mm or
90mm HID Low Beam I am confident I can fit the low beam only and potentially the bi-xenon, but again I need to do it in real life.
Let me work on this, maybe I can make it happen for you.
In the meantime, are there any 60mm, or 50mm Xenon modules that you think will fit? I'm mostly interested in light output, and if you can get more light out of the 60mm, or 50mm modules, than the 90mm modules, I'll rather get smaller ones. - Does this apply to HID/Xenon as well?
I am a sucker for Italian girls, the bull in yellow and the horse in red.
I bet I could fit the 50mm all day, but.... Hella USA lists these 50mm as reflector, and not a projector. Susquehanna shows a 50mm projector I'll get the straight dope in the morning. Besides, I am such a fan of the 60mms, I never considered the 50mm.
In other news, The 90mm bi-xenon is 46mm wider outside to outside than the 90mm HID low beam. Tight, very tight. I don't really have that kind of space to spare. I did not say impossible yet
In the meantime, could you elaborate the difference in light output between the 60mm, and the 90mm, maybe some side by side, or distance shots. I'm really curious how much better the 60mm performs than the 90mm.
The 50mm low beam is a projector and the high beam is a freeform reflector. The lens in the low beam and the front opening of the high beam is 50mm. Compare this to: 60mm lenses in both high and low 60mm modules. 45mm lens in a 90mm low beam projector and a 90mm opening in a 90mm high beam freeform reflector module.
In optics, size matters. Of course, not as much as quality. The 50mm is at a disadvantage because of it's smaller reflector. The 90mm's reflector is larger and the 60mm's is the largest. The difference in the quality of light produce by the 60 and 90mm low beams is pronounced. The 60mm illuminates evenly from curb to curb. The traditional 90mm has a defined hot spot at the center of the beam.
All these fixtures make great light. The 60mm low makes amazing light. Here's the rub, there is no HID version of the 60mm.
The new Bi-xenon 90mm appears to have a larger lens. If so, the $600 each price tag becomes palatable.
Yes, it is true the newest Hella Bi-Halogen and Bi-Xenon have larger projector optics than "traditional" 90mm modules. It appears to be a completely redesigned fixture. I have one enroute. I'll have to break out my High School Musical ruler
Just wow! Excellent information. I just read this whole thread, and I now feel that I am nearing expert levels in regards to automotive lighting. Thanks for being so forthcoming with information. I would give you a positive, but it was done for something else in the past.
I have been searching for DOT Legal 4x6 HID reflector housing without success. Projector optics are offer amazing light quality output, but you lose that traditional Fiero look that I still like
I've contacted my rep. for Hella, and will get more information on the 60mm, and 90mm, and other modules. I'll PM you later when I hear back from him and let you know what I learned, and things that could be helpful to you. In the meantime, PM me to let me know what you need to know specifically.
First let me say how big an improvement Quad 90mm Hella modules are over stock dual element sealed beam headlamps. Night turned to day.
Here are initial comparison photos of 90mm vs 60mm low beam projectors.
Bear with me, no time to crop these. Also note I used a PHD camera and was unable to control exposure.
Here is a 90mm low beam projector
60mm low beam projector
90mm driver side 60mm passenger side
60mm both sides
quad 60mm
90mm high beam 60mm high beam
a couple things to note:
About cut-off in these low beam projector fixtures: I think a blurred vs sharp line may be a matter of personal taste. Dunno The 60mm was designed for sportbikes. I believe I have seen 90mm as stock equipment in some older Audis.
The lens in a 60mm module is an actual 60mm, whereas the 90mm projector module lens is only 45mm
My high beam comparison images are inconclusive. Identical exposure values are required. I'll have to shoot on an actual roadway for better comparison. I will say this; the light from the 60mm high beam projector was much more specular and easier to aim than the 90mm high beam free form reflector.
It would be great to consolidate all the information into a FS and an informational thread, but it's the nature of forums for information to be all over the place.
I have been promising to build a test stand that will allow me to photograph and compare beam patterns for 6 months. I had the module specific mounting hardware cut this week. I have a date with a table saw this morning.
I ordered a pair of 90mm Bi-Halogen Modules and they should here next week. They have the same housing, adjusters, and adjuster hole pattern, as the HID version. The projector lens is in the neighborhood of 70mm in diameter. I will know soon if I can fit these.
Excellent information. I just read this whole thread, and I now feel that I am nearing expert levels in regards to automotive lighting. Thanks for being so forthcoming with information. I would give you a positive, but it was done for something else in the past. 
