Don't let the bastards get you down Cliff. Thanks for all you have done. I have snt my donation to help off-set any financial harm that comes to you as a result of this and will try to remember to make rgular donations to keep this very informative and entertaining site available as a resource as long as possible.
And don't kid yourself...this is not good news for anyone because even thse who have been banned for whatever reason still use this place as a resource..whether they will admit it or not.
Thanks again and let us know if there is anything else we can do.
Kelin
WOW...my first page ownage...interesting....
[This message has been edited by Tytehead (edited 03-13-2005).]
i saw on the other forum that was linked earlier that this shaun pinhead is now saying it wasn't him. WTF. first he says it was now he's backpeddeling and saying it wasn't. what a f'ing loser. he can't understand why anyone here would think it was him. well.....BECAUSE YOU SAID IT WAS. DUMBA$$. damn i can't stand idiots like that. one word sums up that fool p@$$y. nuff said.
fools like that are exactly the reason this forum needs to continue. this is a place we can get good advice, good or bad and find hard, and getting harder to find parts for our cars. this forum has kept a lot of these cars from the crusher. mine being one of them.
I'm not sure if this was mentioned here yet or not, but I did see it somewhere else and thought it was a good idea. Why not allow some of the trusted members here be moderators so that you don't have to spend so much time with the forum? There's got to be something that some here can do to take the load off.
Anytime an activity in a public place is "free" it allows for riffraff, who have no interest in the activity, to loiter and disrupt that activity.
Maybe it's time for Cliff to consider economic exclusion (charge admission to the forum) as a way of keeping individuals with no interest in Fieros, just an interest in disruption and argument for arguements sake, off the forum. Charging a membership fee would do a couple of things, it would help defray the costs of operating the forum including addition of technology upgrades needed for self protection of the forum and forum information, and sift out the casual disrupter who is signing in just to agravate the legitimate members. I would certainly be willing to pay a reasonable monthly or yearly membership fee for the wisdom and information that I have been a beneficiary of during my couple of years of Fiero ownership. This forum has even helped me with problems on my wife's S10 Blazer when the best advice the S10 forum could provide was "get a Chilton's manual".
I've paid a lot more for a lot less (FOCOA membership & newletter) trying to find a good source of Fiero information in the past. I would hope that Cliff can find a way to make this forum less of a personal burdon on himself and his family.
Good luck Cliff! Regardless of your decision I will understand.
------------------ RickN White 88GT 5spd White 85GT Auto
By the way, I did check out the anti PFF site and thought that I had been dropped off in the middle of some back ally in a neighborhood that you wouldn't want to be caught in during the day let alone at night. Regardless of any positive contributions that might be made there, I can't even find the words to describe how vile and destitute that place was. They imply that PFF members think they're better than they- how could anyone think that some of them deserve any respect what-so-ever. The whole experience was absolutely disappointing and has caused me to consider my own actions here on the forum. I need to go take a shower and rub my eyes with soap.
It appeared to me that the link in queaton in fierobear's post was their atempt to circumvent the block that Cliff had placed on direct links from their site to threads in this site. I am no expert so I could be wrong.
Man this hurts, some people need an old fashioned @ss whoopin. I dont really know what I would do without this place, it has been a catalist for so many good things in just the short time I have been here. I really cant afford any payment at this time, but when I do get the money I will send it. Have you ever thought of selling the site to someone that would just have this site on the server? Or making mirrors all over the world? Like I said I dont know alot about computers, but I do know family has to come first. In the end it has to be your choice, and I'm behind you 100%. God Bless you Cliff for all you have done, Brad Miles
P.S. If you think you can sit behind a computer and ruin other peoples lives, you should meet me in person, the town I live in is in my profile, and all you have to do is ask my name, it's a small town and everybody knows me. I'd love to meet you ANYTIME!
[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 03-13-2005).]
I want to beat the sh1t out of whoever did this, In the short time I was a memeber of PFF I met a lot of cool people and got a ton of good info. I am not much of a car guy, and I don't know how I will get my fiero running and happy without the good info from PFF.
Also - Cliff, I hope you and your family and your buisness come through this all right - I can't believer someone would want to screw you over because they got kicked off of an internet forum... it's just fu<ked up... how can it be good news for anyone? what will pffsucks ***** about without pff? man... if I feel like this I can't imagine how the oldtimers must feel.
I feel anger, dissapointment, and fear... if I feel like this I can't imagine how the oldtimers must feel.
I feel a little nervous that you have so much anger and rag an nothin or no-one to direct it to, you're going to wind up kicking your dog out of frustration. Try taking a breath, "Woo-sah" and let it be. I think you got your knickers in a bunch over what amounts to not very much.
There is a Pennockssucks forum? Why? You have been the best webmaster of any forum that I have ever been a part of.
It would be a shame to loose this forum. I have learned so much and met so many wonderful people here. I understand if you decide to can the whole thing but I hope that you don't.
I know no donation will be worth the time spent away from your daughter, but I'll chip in a sizable one if you keep this place open. I have felt many times that my Fiero isn't worth the time + $$$$$ to make it into the unique joy ride it is, but I'm on my final leg of my expensive journey. In the end, I don't think I could ever let it go because of the history involved. You've just about perfected this place with more time and $$$$$ than any of us... It would be a shame to call it a good run while it lasted.
Cliff, if worse comes to worse, could I suggest that you burn CD/s of the entire Forum History, and "Market" them as a complete set to offset the damage done to you.
Tom
This is a great idea.
[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 03-13-2005).]
Wow. If I were you and had to spend time on this place instead of with my son... this place would come down. Yeah, it would suck for all of us to not have PFF anymore, but you gotta think about yourself, not us.
Maybe just take it down for a couple weeks and see how life is? Seriously, do what is right for you.
I feel a little nervous that you have so much anger and rag an nothin or no-one to direct it to, you're going to wind up kicking your dog out of frustration. Try taking a breath, "Woo-sah" and let it be. I think you got your knickers in a bunch over what amounts to not very much.
*Wooo-sah*
ya - you're right, stimpy- that was a kinda gut reaction - I hadn't read all the posts and hadn't really realized the exact nature of the problem - I'm still pissed. But I should have really thought about it before saying something. And would never kick my dog
There is a Pennockssucks forum? Why? You have been the best webmaster of any forum that I have ever been a part of.
Because the loosers over there are the ones that can't follow a few simple, basic rules. Looserland is filled with vile language and small minded people that do not understand basic rules of society. Sort of like they are the Jerry Springer of the Fiero world.
Originally posted by topcat: Great, glad to hear that you are not here too often, if Cliff decides to keep the forum up, I hope that you keep that trend going...
oh, i will ... this place is to much like mustang forums ... you just proved it too ...
[This message has been edited by cryptnix (edited 03-13-2005).]
Cliff, I'm not very knowlegable about servers and forums but if there's anything I can do to help straighten out this mess just let me know. I'm willing to learn.
PFF has been a Godsend to many of us. Without this forum many of our cars would have hit the crusher by now. Cliff has always done a great job with the forum and many of us have taken this for granted. Hopefully we will all come out of this better people for what could have happened if Cliff would not have caught this and dealt with it promptly.
It just goes to show you how one jerk can make things miserable for everyone.
Cliff has my respect for the way he handled this and all the other speed bumps over the past 5 years. I wouldn't have had the patience for this kind of hassle let alone dealing with a perpetual flow of idiots that come along with operating a public forum.
Look at the 1150 update in the first post. I think Cliff was talking Eastern Standard time when he said check for the update, but when he wrote it he looked at his clock... the time in Europe.
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:I still don't know how my server has been comprimized. I am subscribed to the security mailing list for my particular distro and I have applied every security patch relevant to my system as soon as they were released (so Cryptnix, I have not taken a "it works so leave it" stance - far from it. And I would appreciate it if you just kept your mouth shut if you don't know what the hell you are talking about). Or at least, I thought so. I've run a few "scanners" and apparantly, there were still two or three "vulnerable" spots. Now I receive the security alerts by email, but I also receive tons and tons of spam every day so it might very well be I accidently deleted a security bulletin or simply overlooked it. The server has been running for over six years without a hitch or without ever being comprimized before. That should give you a good indication of my dedication keeping the server clean. The fact people here wonder what happened when the server went down for only 10 minutes yesterday, is another. It means people got so used to it always being up.
Spam Issues? Barracuda has firewalls for spam filtering, just as PureMessage does as well. We use these at the ISP I work for ...
And I appoligize for what I said. You provide a wonderful service to people, but I feel your frustration.
I have no clue who you are just as you don't know who I am ... so we'll leave it at that...
Cliff, I know I echo everyone's sentiments here when I say that I've appreciated everything that you've done to keep the forum going. We've all made a lot of friends and have received a great deal of support and information about our cars and, for some people, their personal lives. People that do this type of thing are cowards of the worst kind. They talk a lot, and most of the time, only have things to say online that they'd never say to your face.
I'm a relative newcomer to the forum and only just started posting and visiting regularly, but I've read mostly great things about you and most of the people who frequent PFF. I think that some of the ideas that have been tossed out--additional moderators, paid membership access, other hosting options--are all ones that should be explored. IMHO, since you've given so much of your personal, professional and financial support to start and keep PFF running, it's time that the members step up to lighten your load. There have been many who've volunteered their time, financial support and expertise to help and I think you should take them up on it. That way, you don't have to sacrifice so much of your time with your family. I'm personally not an IT person, but I can give a donation and don't have any problem with a regular membership fee to support the forum. After all, this is a venue that everyone at some point or another has benefited from and it's more than fair that we step up to support it and you to keep it going.
<edit> I just read your update. Sending my donation anyway and don't even THINK about refunding it.
[This message has been edited by Miss-Tress007 (edited 03-13-2005).]
Spam Issues? Barracuda has firewalls for spam filtering, just as PureMessage does as well. We use these at the ISP I work for ...
I filter out spam for clients that request it. But I don't filter my own email. I used to, but all spam-filters I tried deleted quite a bit of legit email too. I found that when I go through it myself, less legit mail gets deleted accidently. But still a lot does. Just less. (does that make sense?)
quote
And I appoligize for what I said. You provide a wonderful service to people, but I feel your frustration.
I have no clue who you are just as you don't know who I am ... so we'll leave it at that...
Everybody gets a bit heated up when something like this happens. That's why I disabled the rating system earlier today. Unfortunately a little bit too late for one particular member (I might revert that later).
Cryptnix you are not endearing yourself to this forum or it's members with the way you are acting. Cliff Pennock is the owner and moderator of this forum in case you haven't figured this out. Your critique of him is coming across as a personal attack and is not very constructive or helpful. Most of the forums I belong to would have at least given you a warning for this. If you truly have a low interest in this forum please leave or try and come up with helpful solutions if you wish to stay.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 03-13-2005).]
I'm surprised that you seem to be running this form from the same servers that you run your business from, or did I miss understands things, if so sorry. Probably a bit late now but I would have thought you'd have made this forum a completely seperate system from your business' servers.
Maybe it's time to accept that this place is just too much for one guy to run. It's a wonderful resource and I, and I am sure many others, would be lost without it and the work that you have done supporting it. Possibly it's time to move it to a commercial server service and require paid subscriptions to access it, to cover the costs. Since you already run a business, you know what it takes so run this forum like one and hire someone to maintain it. even if it runs as a non profit, breaking even is better than paying for it out of pocket and suffering all the crap that goes with it. I know that this has aired before and been rejected but I'd rather see this become a commercial sevice than lose it. you could still keep some control whilst retaining your sanity and some time to be with your family. I know kind words don't pay the bills or fix the problems but I think you already know that the majority of people here support your efforts. they may not agree with every choice you make, but that's not to say they don't support you.
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Again, I would like to thank everyone for their help and support. I also would like to thank everyone who has made donations in the past day. However, when it turns out I don't need a new server just yet, I will refund it all. I know how tight funds are for some of you, and I don't want to take your hard-earned money when it's not needed. I'm pretty sure PayPal doesn't charge their fee if it's refunded within 30 days. This is non-negotiable. If after I refunded the money you still want to make a small donation, that's fine of course. But don't if you really can't.
No need to refund my donation, im sure you will make good use of it
I'm surprised that you seem to be running this form from the same servers that you run your business from, or did I miss understands things, if so sorry. Probably a bit late now but I would have thought you'd have made this forum a completely seperate system from your business' servers.
I run three things on this server: fiero.nl (this place), pennock.nl (my personal website) and a few small email servers for clients. The email servers is what's important (edit: pennock.nl is of course also very important. I't's the website through which I sell my programs). Even though they take very little resources, shutting the server down for a few days can be disastrous. I do have two backup email servers. But not all SMTP servers automatically try the secondary servers when the primary goes down. The reason I have them running on this machine is because this is the server I spend the most time on and is secured the best (although apparantly, not good enough).
quote
Maybe it's time to accept that this place is just too much for one guy to run. It's a wonderful resource and I, and I am sure many others, would be lost without it and the work that you have done supporting it. Possibly it's time to move it to a commercial server service and require paid subscriptions to access it, to cover the costs.
I have tested commerical server services for clients before and they simply aren't reliable enough. Almost all of them throttle the connection to about 2Mb (bursts even) which means a high traffic site like this suffers. My server has been up and running for over 6 years now, and besides this hack (and the occasional hardware upgrades), has been running with a near 100% uptime (not to mention I have a 100Mbit line to the backbone with no throttling).
quote
Since you already run a business, you know what it takes so run this forum like one and hire someone to maintain it. even if it runs as a non profit, breaking even is better than paying for it out of pocket and suffering all the crap that goes with it.
The costs I don't mind (every "hobby" costs money, you own a Fiero, you should now ), it's the crap that sometimes gets me.
quote
I know that this has aired before and been rejected but I'd rather see this become a commercial sevice than lose it. you could still keep some control whilst retaining your sanity and some time to be with your family. I know kind words don't pay the bills or fix the problems but I think you already know that the majority of people here support your efforts. they may not agree with every choice you make, but that's not to say they don't support you.
Let me get one thing out of the way. PFF will never be lost. Like I said in another thread, if I decide to quit I will hand over the complete system (databases, archives, files, and all administrative programs I wrote) to somebody who has the resources to continue it. I will even help install it on that person's system. I am fully aware of my responsibility towards the Fiero community; PFF doesn't belong to me. It belongs to its members. I have no right to just make it disappear. So always keep that in mind. I will never, ever simply pull the plug. PFF wasn't built by me. It was built by you. And I do realize that.
I'm really glad that Cliff has decided to keep the forum, and also continue to moderate it.
I've been here almost three years, so I am not an "old timer" but I am a "middle timer" though.
This is without a doubt the most informational forum that I have ever seen. Period. I also have posted non-Fiero questions here, and recieved answers that the brand-specific forums could not supply. I even quit one of the Grand Prix forums for that reason.
I am blessed with a Fiero that just does not give many problems.(There are some out there) Squirt runs like a champ 99% of the time. I would never consider selling her(I've been asked many times) and look to PFF for all of the information that I can obtain.
Hats off to Cliff for running a superb forum, and to all of the forum members who contribute so much information.
It is all about our love of this little car. We become friends because of a common interest. This forum is like a famly to me.
I just donated $20.00 to cliff. THANK YOU CLIFF FOR ALL THAT YOU HAVE DONE! I am in high school and make $7.50 an hour and work 15 hours a week. That isn't very much, but I am willing to give that much for this place. It is the best place for info that I have ever seen. I've done what I can and all I can do is hope that this place stays alive.
WOW! Cliff.... this really sucks. I appriciate all you have done for the Fiero Community and as you can see, many others feel the same way. You have created a VERY important site and you should be proud of it. I personally check the forum on average once per day. If I can't find time, I make time. That's how much I enjoy it.
Think of all of the communication that never would have happened if had not been for the forum. Heck, I would not have sold my silver car the way I did, or host the track day for CFOGi, or meet many of the wonderful folks. And that is just ME. Thousands of people have had similar experiences.
Thank you for all you have done AND all you are doing. This a great thing you have started and are continuing to fight for!
Why? You have been the best webmaster of any forum that I have ever been a part of. 
