Thanks to everyone who has shown their support so far.
Like I said, I'm dead serious about persuing this. And I will not pretend I can do this alone and that's why I call in the help of anyone reading this.
As I understand so far from the people who have been emailing me, I have a very good legal case against the persons responsible for this. Even though there was no hacking involved, I can sue for "defamation of character" and "punitive damages".
But first things first. I already have backups from my logs which clearly shows the ip addresses of the people who did this. Next step is to get the ISP's to give up (parts) of their logs and to make them confirm the identity of the poster. I've already mailed "Oklohoma State University" but I'd rather have it someone would call them. My english is good, but perhaps it would be better if a true english speaking person calls them. Now before half the forum starts calling them, let's first pick a person who wants to give them a call - explain what has happened and how I need to proceed from here.
Or maybe someone else has any ideas how to proceed from here? Do I need to find a lawyer first? Or should I first concentrate on getting the "proof"?
Sorry if this is out of line as I didnt read all 3 pages of this post yet
but I have an uncle there at the univeristy you are needing contacted and he is a Coach, I also have 2 cousins that are students there and I attened not too many years back for a semester... I would gladly help you contact or get the email addresses and confirmations you need, also I believe I know Aaron in an odd sort of way... and have seen his face a few times before in person not to mention I think this may be him as well [link]http://milehighfieros.8.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=3[/link] no offense to mile high and no offense to any likenesses represented etc etc legal mumbo jumbo just scroll down and check a face shot on him and the shirt says it all "that boy aint right" if it is indeed him...
and cliff I check this site more than my myspace and more than my yahoo so if you need me to go down there or make a phone call PM me here
As a person who does not respect RFT because of a few of their immature members, I do not see how RFT as a website can be held responsible in the attack on Cliff's business forum.
It has already been confirmed in the original post by Cliff who actually did the attack. If others were involved in the planning of it there is no "proof" yet. Aaron has already implicated himself and 3 others, which is pretty foolish because the log itself has him admit it was done with malicious intent.
But at present only those who's IP addresses have been logged as doing the actual attack are the ones who can be held accountable.
Originally posted by Oreif: But at present only those who's IP addresses have been logged as doing the actual attack are the ones who can be held accountable.
That's fine. Early on, it had the appearance that something might have originated from RFT. If not, that's fine. I just hope that whoever is responsible get what they deserve.
As for the rest of it, I'm just sick of reading these guys posts, here on PFF, talking about how great RFT is, and that we should all go over there. No freakin' thanks.
That's fine. Early on, it had the appearance that something might have originated from RFT. If not, that's fine. I just hope that whoever is responsible get what they deserve.
As for the rest of it, I'm just sick of reading these guys posts, here on PFF, talking about how great RFT is, and that we should all go over there. No freakin' thanks.
where at early on, did it look like real fiero tech, andall of its moderators where all at fault and should be sued? YOU where the only one to say that. and it NEVER looked like that.
no one said how great rft was, or how anyone should go over there, we just said u shouldnt sue everyone on rft. and it isnt rft's fault. it was 4 individuals.
good job making stuff up tho and saying we said it, to try and gracegully get out of the argument.
but please ...continue on with ur telling me and other people what not to post about (RFT), where to post at. and what horrible a human bean i am for posting there. even tho I was in no way "like many other rft members" related to the unfortunite events caused by 3-4 stupid idiots.
Aaron was even banned from RFT. Please FieroBear stop with this.
He brings a good point. What those 4 individuals did was very immature and stupid. Arguing about these things, especially in this thread, is not much more mature...
It was an "IP ban" all he had to do was use a different computer. Or maybe even wait a few days. The point is RFT banned him. You won't find anyone on that forum who liked him (execept Falcon4).
Personally I like datacops statement and yes I have been on the bad end of it before and now it is all gone... still never allowed to work for AOL or any of its affilliates EVER but its ok...
and Loki I know some racers from T Town TX and they go to the track there... all of em are mustangs though... we should meet up and go to Stillwater together... it would be a fun day in some fieros... and on Campus too I will be in Tyler soon as well I'll PM you when I am coming down this spring
this has nothing * to do with RFT, and ALL discussion of RFT should cease. immediately. also, all discussion of persons personally confronting the alleged perpetrators should cease immediately. transcripts of remarks appearing in these threads will very likely appear as evidence in court.
* unless one or more of the perpetrators or someone they confided in owns RFT, or is an administrator on RFT. in which case, by the time the lawyers get through, cliff will own RFT - literally. computers, keyboards, monitors, desks, everything.
legal is the way to go. jail is the appropriate remedy. i hope they enjoy "bubba".
sounds like these punks are students and maynot have any real accesets thus are semi sue proof
calling the school maybe the most cost effective way to get them and or sueing the schools and any other ISP services that donot drop them malisish mischief laws may help at the state level or even feds but they seldom have time to follow up
sorry that these fools targeted you I would try ISPs and schools before lawyers
good luck
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
I wish I lived closer to OK. I think I would give this Aaron dude a nice southern type "Talking to". His picture might look a little different afterwards.....
I work at a medical center attached to a large university. If they are using univeristy accounts the policies are very strict about misuse of computer accounts. So I dont believe you will have any problem with them terminating or in the least investigating this incident. I would think the same could be said for any ISP. As this is a growing problem, and if people are allowed to get away with it with no consequences, then that would only promote more of it.
This is interestingly like a new type of internet gang. Similar to the criminal gangs you have in the inner city, except they roam the internet hurting others for there own pleasure. Unfortunately they have awoken a sleeping giant here. This is one large, very large gang. Kinda like the Crips taking on the Marines.
Originally posted by Madscanner: A quick google on "Aaron O*****" suggests that he a member of the Mile High Fiero Club - you may wish to contact the webmaster in relation to this... Regards
Seriously, we get it. PFF is the house. RFT is the sewer. And you're the guy going around telling everyone about the **** you just took.
As for the people threatening physical violence, or even inferring it, might want to rethink that considering even a threat can be considered assualt (read: a felony).
As for you Cliff, you and I haven't gotten along the best in the past. You've even called me a 'foul' name or two, but nothing that I've taken personally. I don't care really, but this attack was lame. So basically what I'm trying to say is good luck getting them.
As a member of this forum for the past several years, I stand behind Cliff 100%. There is no excuse for such unprovoked attacks, and those responsible must be held accountable, its as simple as that.
As a member of RFT as well, all I have to say is this: Guilt by association is a logical fallacy. Liking more than one internet forum has absolutely no bearing on my senses of ethics and morality. The guilty must pay.
I give trevor a lot of mad props on this one... hes on the fence and defending none but the innocent on both forums, we all visit sites other than this one, and for everyone looking into Myspace you can lie about your age easily and what kind of idiot puts thier REAL NAME on one... its asking for it lol if you can do dumb stuff maybe the car you have to sell off will pay for the legal fees... I cought a nice assault case when it was self defense and I still had to sell 4 show cars 1 show truck and 1 work truck and also 2 daily driveable gas sippers, not to mention 2 houses and a dirt bike to get the lawyer to prove it was necessary and I still have anger managment... and had a nice hotel for 3 weeks called County but it was all dropped to a misdemeanor and dismissed off my record for anger managment
damn thts a lot to do if you have some projects you could be working on maybe when he sells his stuff we can get good deals so he can get a nice lawyer... and colleges wont wanna touch him after web abuse cause most require you to be on thier network for classes and other things and ... if you did it once, you may do something worse later.....
and yeah I have a not so good record but its all been a learning expierience for me.. and now I know when man pulls a gun you need to et him shoot you before beating him within inches of his life... I feel that Cliff was E-shot by the new E-gangstas ... LOL i think its sad to do this to a private forum but if it had been Amazon.com or something corporate owned ... it may have been worth it
and as for arguing over the web... what was that saying ooh yeah get a hobby away from keyboards
Originally posted by jack_ink: and for everyone looking into Myspace you can lie about your age easily and what kind of idiot puts thier REAL NAME on one...
Well I wasn't searching myspace for him he just added me on there a long time ago (probably because he saw that I have a Fiero). He's even commented on my car on there before, thats why I recognized the picture that cliff posted. Also I'm almost positive he's 16 it's all over his page, theres even a live counter on there counting down to his 17th birthday.
I gotta agree with ya about the arguing, it's just a waste of time.....
[This message has been edited by Silicoan86 (edited 02-09-2007).]
I Hope the get what the deserve and more ..I can,t see it to why poeple get Mad and try to end a forum or talk bitter about forum once to get kick out ..I know when it will be my time to go from this forum if happen , I will carry on to my normal life as before I join in ..I will drive my fiero whit no anguer to why I got kick out ..If I did get kick out would of been because of my bad behave ,,,Would be nothing again The PFF and the poeple in it ..Am not a member from the other one but I can open it up to see what poeple are saying in it ..And its sad to see it to how poeple got sooooo much hate in them to some of them , and to the last one who got kick out of here well he fanily post in there and hes as a child to never did grow up and never did no wrong Hes got anger and to what hes wishing for its not funny and scarry..He should of wash his mother car and she should of wack him for doing it so ... ..Some will paste post from here and bring over there ..to Why this is going on back and forth like it is ..I never know ..Anyway Cliff I wish you nothing but the best to you and Hopely this will all end and get back to Normal for you ..And for peace to the fiero forum to join in whit no anger towards your fellow fiero mate ..God Bless you all ..and have a safe weekend ..And thx again Cliff to have made it a fun place to Have fun when fun is there ..There will never be a anger toward no one , Not by me anyway to what happen if I ever get kick out and this would be my first one and last forum ..Life lives on .Take care .. Rob
[This message has been edited by Newbfiero (edited 02-09-2007).]
sounds like these punks are students and maynot have any real accesets thus are semi sue proof
True. Unfortunately in a civil action Cliff would not be likely to get much, or anything from young kids. If awarded a judgment they would likely file bankruptcy and make it all go away
I think the criminal (prosecution) route would be the one to take. Make the appropriate authorities aware of what happened and press charges in the correct jurisdiction. This would not re-coupe any lost monies but would make an example that this kind of activity will not go unanswered. Likely those under 18 would get a slap on the wrist in the US legal system though, again.....
I wish Cliff the best with this, although I can foresee a difficult road ahead legally. There are and have been enough attorneys in my family that I have a little sense of what will be.
The number one advise, already given, get a lawyer as soon as possible.
Good luck Cliff, if I can help (legally) let me know.
[This message has been edited by tutnkmn (edited 02-09-2007).]
Oh, I just realized I had completely closed down my software forum in an attempt to make sure nobody would change it as it is. I didn't realize it wasn't visible for other people except the moderator. That has been changed now so you can check out what they have done.
On a side note, I received this through email this morning:
quote
Subject: Mr. Pennock, I want to apologize
Mr. Pennock I want to apologize for a huge mistake I made on my part. I was one of the users who spammed your other forum (wildhorsey69) and at the time I honestly was not taking into consideration the harm that it would cause to you. But I'm going to stand up for what I did and that I realize that I created a lot of issues for you and your business. I'm deeply sorry for this whole thing, and I didn't realize that it was a business forum, which was also my fault. But I did not understand the consequences of my actions before I acted. I am 16 years old and I really don't know what to do about the situation I have got myself into. I feel the right thing to do is to stand up and take responsibility for my actions. I'm willing to help out in any way that I can.
My deepest apologies,
Randy P---------
Now this guy is only 16 years old and I'm not out to destroy his life. So I'm not sure what to do with him yet. I do think it takes a big man to admit his mistakes - on the other hand, I don't even know if he really means it or if somebody whispered this in his ear to try to avoid prosecution...
Originally posted by fierobear: You should consider a class action, or name all the parties who did it, and be sure that RFT and it's owner(s) and moderator(s) are included. It's time these poor excuses for human beings PAY for their bullshit.
First, forget the class action. A class action is typically used to prosecute a the claims of a large group of plaintiffs, all of whom have suffered similar damages. While I and others on this fourm may have been inconvenienced, I personally would not be looking for damages. Besides, my damages, if any, would likely be significantly different than Cliff's. Before proceeding as a class action, most states require that the class be certified (a court process whereby the group of plaintiffs is identified and approved).
As far as naming all possible defendants. sometimes this isn't the best strategy because it tends to polarize potential witnesses (e.g. a witness who might otherwise be favorable to the plaintiff will not likely be willing to volunteer information if he is a named defendiant). In addition, IMHO it can weaken a case to name defendants who are only tangetially involved.
As far as naming RFT as a named defendant, I would want to have more information before making that decision. In any event, to the extent that RFT as an entity were involved, and a proper defendant, if done properly, the complaint can be amended to name RFT at a later date. Alternatively, it might be appropriate to conduct some further investigation prior to commencing the legal action.
The fact that certain perpetrators are (or may be) minors might affect a criminal prosecution, but has no bearing on the right to bring a civil action. However, don't use the threat of criminal prosecution, or a promise to refrain from such prosecution as consideration for a civil settlement... it's called extortion.
Since the participants seem to be scattered among several states, Cliff has the opportunity to bring suit in one of several different areas. It may be advantageous to examine the various laws in each state to determine the best venue. On the other hand, it will also make finding an appropriate attorney a little easier since he can choose from from the pool of attorneys in several different locations.
------------------ FierOmar
[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 02-09-2007).]
Mr. Pennock I want to apologize for a huge mistake I made on my part. I was one of the users who spammed your other forum (wildhorsey69) and at the time I honestly was not taking into consideration the harm that it would cause to you. But I'm going to stand up for what I did and that I realize that I created a lot of issues for you and your business. I'm deeply sorry for this whole thing, and I didn't realize that it was a business forum, which was also my fault. But I did not understand the consequences of my actions before I acted. I am 16 years old and I really don't know what to do about the situation I have got myself into. I feel the right thing to do is to stand up and take responsibility for my actions. I'm willing to help out in any way that I can.
My deepest apologies,
Randy P---------
He is old enough to surf the net and make really vile comments on a business support forum, so he is old enough to face the consequences. Maybe this can be one of those tough life lessons that molds him into a more responsible human and not a zit on the face of society.
In other words, I would let the courts decide on what to do with him based on his age. I'd press ahead. Apology accepted, but standing up to what's coming includes answering to your behavior to the courts.
If he walks with no reprecussions, what did he really learn? Send an email with an apology, sound sincere, and play the age card, and I can get away with it.
Or... let him answer to a court, and maybe he can really see that there are real consequences to bad behavior. It is not you wrecking his life by going forward... who knows, he might have done this sort of thing before, or he might be a familiar face to the courts.
[This message has been edited by topcat (edited 02-09-2007).]
Get a layer first....that is the number one step to getting this all taken care of.
Matter of fact you can contact a company called "Pre Paid Legal Services Inc." 1-800-654-7757 They are a massive company with law firms all over the world. The service has a small monthly fee ($36.00) and you have a layer on call whenever you need them. And yes you can use the service as soon as you sign up.
They are a great company and I have been with them for years. They give you true legal freedom.
Just a thought
I have some money here to help you also. Just tell me where to send it.
thanks Cliff....for everything
Well, while I might agree that PrePaid Legal Services does provide access to a lawyar, there are quite a few limitations. Generally, they will defend you (up to a specified number of hours) for the modest amount charged by the plan. Beyond that, the attorneys will expect you to pay their hourly fee. The prosecution of legal actions is not included in their plan... at least not for the basic fee.
I have seen the pitch given by a PPL's independent sales associates, touting the high quality of legal services by the attorneys who provide services as part of the plan. Most of these sales associates have no clue what they are talking about... they just repeat what they have been told. Based on my personal assessment of their legal skills, I would rate PPL's attorneys in my area as average at best with respect to their ability to defend litigation. I can't imagine that they would be significantly better on the plaintiff's side.
Don't misunderstand... PPL has a place, and if used properly can be a worthwhile product. It just isn't anywhere near as great as the sales staff would have you beieve.
BTW, PPL is not a massive company with law firms all over the world (or country). They simply contract with a number of law firms to provide legal services to participants in their legal services plan.
------------------ FierOmar
[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 02-09-2007).]
He is old enough to surf the net and make really vile comments on a business support forum, so he is old enough to face the consequences. Maybe this can be one of those tough life lessons that molds him into a more responsible human and not a zit on the face of society.
In other words, I would let the courts decide on what to do with him based on his age. I'd press ahead. Apology accepted, but standing up to what's coming includes answering to your behavior to the courts.
If he walks with no reprecussions, what did he really learn? Send an email with an apology, sound sincere, and play the age card, and I can get away with it.
Or... let him answer to a court, and maybe he can really see that there are real consequences to bad behavior. It is not you wrecking his life by going forward... who knows, he might have done this sort of thing before, or he might be a familiar face to the courts.
Although Aaron may have goaded them into assisting with the spamming, (mob mentality) they are still responsible for their actions. In terms of Randy P. it does appear he has no problem with accepting responsibility for his actions and is willing to help out. I would have to agree with topcat that more than just an apology is warranted. The good news is, you now have a witness who can testify as to what happened. If he helps in the prosecution of the others, the judge will most likely go easier on him in terms of punishment, but he will still receive real consequences for his actions. He most likely will get some kind of probation and with his age it maybe removed from his record when he turns 18. This will stress the point of what he has done was very wrong and most likely will not affect his life when he gets older.
Hmm. After reading through all of this I have to wonder exactly - what criminal act took place? Because, afterall, a criminal act IS required for criminal prosecution (not sure how many understand that after all of the class action lawsuit talk, lol). Is spamming a forum a criminal act? You might be able to try and classify it as some kind of malicious use of a computer but those laws are designed for hacking.
Assuming there is a criminal act, which is a mighty big assumption at this point, you'll have to file charges. Then you'll have to convince a prosecutor there is enough evidence to get a conviction, good luck there. Most likely the charges would be dismissed. You think a prosecutor is going to go through all this getting out of state witnesses, dealing with guys from other countries, for what? Spamming an internet forum? Get real people. To say they have bigger fish to fry would be the understatement of the year.
The only type of recourse would be in the civil courts. This would be the only realistic way of inflicting any kind of real "damages" to the perpetrators. In all honesty though most lawyers wouldn't touch the case because there is nothing to go after. Homeless people don't get sued, but business owners and CEO's do all the time. Catch my drift? Even if you do have a case, where you would have to prove damages, there's nothing in it for John Q. Attorney.
With a minor then you are really getting sticky because it would be his parents that would deal with it, and many states have laws on how much monetary damage a parent can be held liable for their child/dependent's actions. In Maryland its 10 grand. Not sure what other states are.
Either way you are looking at dealing with 3 different lawyers from 3 different states going after a few thousand bucks.
I think the best Cliff could hope for is getting Aaron fired or if he ponied up the cash getting a lawyer to make him spend money on a lawyer on a civil lawsuit. But I am telling you right now no lawyer will take the case without getting $ up front because they know he doesn't have a lot of money therefore they won't make a lot of money. Might as well forget about the minor.
[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 02-09-2007).]
I just wanted to thank everybody again for all your help in this matter. I receive tons of emails and PM's and I wish I could answer them all. So if I don't answer your email and PM, it's not because I haven't read it or don't appreciate your help, it's because I don't have the time (yet) to answer them.
[Edited by Cliff Pennock: "Hey, did I accidently choose a Thumbs-Down icon for this post? I meant a Thumbs-Up of course!"]
Hmm. After reading through all of this I have to wonder exactly - what criminal act took place? Because, afterall, a criminal act IS required for criminal prosecution (not sure how many understand that after all of the class action lawsuit talk, lol). Is spamming a forum a criminal act? You might be able to try and classify it as some kind of malicious use of a computer but those laws are designed for hacking.
I guess you haven't read "all of this" then. If indeed all that was done was "spamming", then yes, all I could hope for is a slap on the wrist for Aaron from his employer. And guess what? If all they did was that, I would have probably left it at that.
However, he has done much more than that. He has made claims to my clients that the software I offered was his and not mine and that I am a fraud. That's both libel and a violation of copyright laws. Had he just posted a single message on my forum, then he could have said it was just him goofing off a bit. But he has PM'd this message to every single member on that forum - something that took him a few hours to do. Besides the fact he just made over a hundred persons a witness to his actions, this also proofs intent. Unless he pleads insanity, he can't just throw this on a "spur of the moment" thing. He also rallied a few others - I have several witnesses to this fact. Again this proofs intent.
So nice try, but this is waaaaaaay beyond some kids "goofing off".
And if you think what they have done is trivial, then perhaps you should get your head out of your ---. They knowingly and willingly tried to destroy my business and my credibility towards my customers. The extent of the damage done isn't clear to me yet - but that it's going to hurt me financially is clear. This is after all my livelihood. This is what pays my bills. I'm not some kind of 20 year old punk kid who is about to loose his job as a Parking Officer at some University. I'm a 42-year old with a wife and a kid with real bills to pay and real mouths to feed. If you think I should simply laugh it off then you need a reality check.
He's only 16 too.....here's his page....
Hes got anger and to what hes wishing for its not funny and scarry..He should of wash his mother car and she should of wack him for doing it so 
... ..Some will paste post from here and bring over there 
..to Why this is going on back and forth like it is ..I never know ..Anyway Cliff I wish you nothing but the best to you and Hopely this will all end and get back to Normal for you ..And for peace to the fiero forum to join in whit no anger towards your fellow fiero mate ..God Bless you all ..and have a safe weekend ..And thx again Cliff to have made it a fun place to Have fun when fun is there 
