and have messed it up completely. Also, they apparently PM'd every single member on that forum (my clients) with some story on how I'm a fraud and the software I'm selling is stolen or something to that effect.
You know, I don't really care that these people have a problem with me and PFF, but this is directly affecting my business and me, and most importantly the future of my child. In short, I am not amused at all by this and I will not simply laugh this one off.
It will take some time to clean this one up and it the meantime, I will need to close PFF so I actually have the time to do it.
And to the ones who are responsible for this: This no longer is a simple internet quarrel. You have decided to take it a step further. I will take every legal effort to make sure you pay for this.
February 8, 4:15am EST:
I had a doctor's appointment this morning and I was in a hurry writing the above. The trip to the doctor's office gave me some time to think about this and to decide my next step. I will explain in a bit what I have decided. But first things first. Let me explain what has happened so far.
The first thing I do every morning when I wake up, is check my email and the PM's on PFF. I had received this message from a member of PFF. Apparently it's a log of a conversation through AIM (until he tells me it's ok, I have removed his screen name):
quote
AaronZ34: we own cliff [removed]: ? AaronZ34: check this out AaronZ34: cliff penncoks new forum AaronZ34: http://www.pennock.nl/suppo...af8a072a3c51b675c91a AaronZ34: have a look at a few threads... [removed]: dont get it [removed]: what is it? [removed]: a hidden forum he had? AaronZ34: no, its a new forum he started for his software **** , notice the spamming... [removed]: u need an xbox AaronZ34: lol [removed]: or somthing better to do with ur time AaronZ34: HAHAHA AaronZ34: It was Stuart, Shaun, Product, and I AaronZ34: We replied to EVERY post on his forum with www.realfierotech.com AaronZ34: Then we PM'ed EVERY SINGLE MEMBER AaronZ34: With a story on how his software was frauded from other ceators AaronZ34: we owned him [removed]: is it fraud? AaronZ34: the hell if i know [removed]: so ur just trying to be dicks? AaronZ34: bingo AaronZ34: not trying---we ARE! [removed]: thats ****ed up AaronZ34: lol
BTW, this is not a new nor hidden forum. It's been there for years and it's the support forum for some of the products I sell.
So I check it out and by clicking on the link in my previous message, you can see what they did.
Apparently, the ones responsible for this thinks they "owned" me. For now this is true because they managed to really piss me off and they actually done quite some damage. Damage that will take some time to correct. Not only damage to my software forum, but real financial damage. This is going to hurt me in my wallet.
But let me tell you: once I'm done with this, I will have given a whole new meaning to the word "owned". Why? Let me tell you what I've decided what my response to this will be.
First of all, I'm sure the ones responsible for this have thought they could get away with this because:
I'm in the Netherlands and not in the USA.
I don't have the time to fully persue this
I don't have the funds to fully persue this
I don't have the will to fully persue this
And quess what? They are absolutely 100% right. And that's why for the first time in the existence of PFF, I will call in the help of the 13,000+ members of PFF. I'm sure there are many members that are working in the internet business, and if I supply them with ip-addresses, they can find out where the messages are posted from, and perhaps even get the information from the ISP who these persons actually are. I'm also pretty sure that some members on the forum know exactly what legal action can be taken against these people. And how. And last but not least, I'm sure that if I open a seperate PayPal account for this, people will gladly donate money to cover the costs of any lawyer needed.
You see, once this is out of my hands, it doesn't matter whether ot not I have the time, the funds, or the will to persue this. Because I'm sure there will always be at least a few others that do.
Am I serious? Yes, I'm dead serious. Like I said, the people responsible for this have decided to take this one step further. And that one step is one step too far.
I will eventually open the forum again and will copy the contents of this page to a new thread. And we'll continue from there. I will openly discuss everything: the ip-addresses I have found in my logs. The names of people I have found that are connected to these ip-addresses. The ISP's from these persons (I already saw that one IP-address leads to Oklahoma State university address. I'm sure they will not be happy once they find out their computers have been used for illegal practices by one of their students. I wonder what their action will be against this person).
So you think you owned me? Wait till I'm done with you.
February 8, 6:25am EST:
This is the PM they have been sending to everyone on my software support forum:
quote
My name is Aaron, and Cliff ripped off my software. I created at least 2 programs he has here, and he took my code, removed the copyright, and is using it as his own.
The law won't let me do anything since he is in the Netherlands.
Please do not support him, or this site. He is a FRAUD!!!
So far, I have found these IP addresses of the persons responsible (username in parenthesis):
Even though it's night in the US, I have already received lots of email from people supporting me. A lot of people also already want to donate money to the cause.
Please do not use my regular PayPal to donate money for this cause! I will open a seperate account for this. The reason is simple. I want to make absolutely sure that people don't think I am taking this opportunity to make a quick buck. I will not take a single dollar of the money donated for this specific cause. If for some reason I decide to no longer persue this, I will either refund the money donated (minus PayPal fees) or if you so desire, donate the money to a charity.
Some people also told me I should just shrug my shoulders and go on and shouldn't give these kids the satisfaction of the attention they are now getting. To those: I'm sorry but I can't. My software business is my primary source of income and PFF is partly funded by this. And this kind of crap needs to stop now. You know, I've shrugged my shoulders when I received threats by email. I shrugged my shoulders when they PhotoShopped pictures of my wife and me. I shrugged my shoulders after they attempted to hack my server. But like I said, they've gone too far now. And I will not leave it at that.
February 8, 7:15am EST:
I've cross referenced the above ip-addresses with usernames on my forum. The below usernames have posted messages through those ip-addresses:
Now except for the obvious (AaronZ34), the other users might actually have nothing to do with this latest attack. Dynamic IP addresses are re-used over time so people get the ip-address that has been used by someone else previously.
PS: Even though you see the username "84fierotrevor" a few times on my software forum, he's not one of the persons that messed up the forum. He's actually trying to help me with this. Thanks Trevor!
February 8, 7:55am EST:
People told me I shouldn't worry about the PM thing since hardly anyone checks their PM's in such a sort time. Problem is that my software forum sends a copy of the PM to the email address of the recipient, so every single member of my support forums has received the message already...
Oh, and I just read the PM's I received on my software support forums:
quote
From: product1620
I OWN YOU HARDCORE LIKE I DID YOUR WIFE LAST NIGHT, BEYOTCH!!!!
p.s. DIAF!
pps, east coast nukkka!
And this one:
quote
From: WildHorsey69
I OWN you. Oh but do you like my horsey?
And the last:
quote
From: Aaron2.Hate
And oh yah, I **** OWN you.
February 8, 11:25am EST:
It's only 3:25pm here and I've already spent 8 hours on this crap. I've confirmed the IP used by Aaron2.hate is indeed from the person posting as "AaronZ34" on several other forums. I also now have his real name, home address and telephone number. That makes it a lot easier for the lawyer.
A lot of people have asked me if this is the end of PFF. No, it's absolutely not. I've just closed the forum temporarily because I wasn't sure this morning if they were going to target PFF as well. I also needed some resources to create backup of my log files and all in all, it would save me a lot of trouble if I just closed PFF for a while. Don't worry, PFF will be open again real soon. I'm almost done collecting all data needed from my server.
Also I would like to thank everybody who has shown their support in this!
February 8, 12:07pm EST:
Know your adversary they say. Meet Aaron O.:
[Edited by Cliff Pennock: "Removed image of 'alleged' perpetrator"]
In the mean time, I've been busy answering emails from clients that had read their PM and were asking questions about it. That means I didn't have the time to answer the many emails I got from PFF members. I truly apologize to them and will answer all your emails shortly.
February 8, 12:15pm EST:
I just found out it's actually possible to sue the persons responsible for this. Many people emailed me I could sue them because hacking is a crime. But there was no hacking involved. This was a public forum and anybody can sign up and post messages. I can sue them however for "defamation of character" and "punitive damages". As soon as I have log files from the ISPs where they posted their messages from, and the ISP confirms the identity of these persons, I have a case.
Hey Cliff, First off, it sucks that there are guys like this out there that just like to rip people off for no good reason. Secondly, props to you for standing your ground!!! Thirdly, I have a business of my own, and when it turns from a few giggles, to ruining someones livelyhood, that crosses the line. I am hopeful that these clowns get your point, and that they are punished for causing this mayhem!!!! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!! Don't let these guys get the best of you, and we do appreciate all you do for the Fiero Fanatics out there!!!!! Good luck catching these guys!
Actually, in the US, it's felony to hack into computers. I don't know the law or how to get a prosecution going, but the attack sounds like it was pretty unsophisticated, so it shouldn't be too difficult to get a prosecution going. Getting busted on a federal computer crime is gonna ruin the guy financially and could put a felony conviction on his record--that's the way I'd go.
I'm glad the forum is back up and running. It goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) you've got friends--lots of them.
Thanks to everyone who has shown their support so far.
Like I said, I'm dead serious about persuing this. And I will not pretend I can do this alone and that's why I call in the help of anyone reading this.
As I understand so far from the people who have been emailing me, I have a very good legal case against the persons responsible for this. Even though there was no hacking involved, I can sue for "defamation of character" and "punitive damages".
But first things first. I already have backups from my logs which clearly shows the ip addresses of the people who did this. Next step is to get the ISP's to give up (parts) of their logs and to make them confirm the identity of the poster. I've already mailed "Oklohoma State University" but I'd rather have it someone would call them. My english is good, but perhaps it would be better if a true english speaking person calls them. Now before half the forum starts calling them, let's first pick a person who wants to give them a call - explain what has happened and how I need to proceed from here.
Or maybe someone else has any ideas how to proceed from here? Do I need to find a lawyer first? Or should I first concentrate on getting the "proof"?
Let us know what you need. This has gone from zero to stupid in a short time, so I am all for stringin' those varmits up. Make the dumbasses pay for being stupid. Attacking someone's business (and livelyhood) for no valid reason is so not good...
My University's website is set up similar to Oklahoma University's, once I had his name is was only a matter of finding the directory. Let's learn more about our hacker wannabe:
[Address removed by cliff: "I want this guy sued - not molested"]
Oh the fun I can have with this information
Email his school's tech department and tell them exactly what he did, and the action you plan to take. They will probably suspend his internet access at the very least, probably have to pay some fine, MAYBE even get his expelled
From the University's computer use policy:
quote
Under existing law, any person who maliciously accesses, alters, deletes, damages or destroys any computer system, network, computer program or data may be charged with a felony. The University also requires that members of its community act in accordance with these responsibilities,
quote
J. Conduct Expectations and Prohibited Actions Examples of misuse include, but are not limited to: -Using computers or electronic mail to act abusively toward others or to create a hostile environment, violent reaction, such as stalking, threats of violence, or other hostile or intimidating "fighting words." -Posting on electronic bulletin boards or web pages materials that violate the University's codes of conduct (faculty, student). This includes posting information that is slanderous or defamatory in nature or displaying graphically disturbing or sexually harassing images or text in a public computer facility or location that are in view of other individuals. -Attempting to monitor or tamper with another user's electronic communications or reading, copying, changing, or deleting another user's files or software without the explicit agreement of the owner. -Using campus networks to gain, or attempt to gain, unauthorized access to any computer system. -Performing an act without authorization that will interfere with the normal operation of computers, terminals, peripherals, networks, or will interfere with others' ability to make use of the resources.
Hmm I think he violated a FEW of these?
quote
K. Systems Security Officer The university's (SSO) or the person designated by the Assistant Vice President of CIS, shall be the primary contact to work in conjunction with appropriate university officials for the interpretation, enforcement and monitoring of this policy and the resolution of problems concerning it. Any issues concerning law shall be referred to OSU Legal Counsel for advice and action as applicable.
In situations that are an immediate threat to the security or operation of a computer or network, the SSO may require immediate intervention of access privileges and affected user files or messages. In such an emergency, the SSO will notify, as soon as possible, the appropriate university administrators and users affected by the situation.
L. Consequences of Misuse Misuse of computing, networking, or information is unacceptable, and users will be held accountable for their conduct. Serious infractions can result in temporary or permanent loss of computing and/or network privileges and/or Federal or State legal prosecution. Appropriate corrective action or discipline may be taken in conformance with applicable personnel policies and student policies. Some computer abuses are a crime, (such as illegal reproduction of software protected by U. S. copyright law) and penalties can include a fine and/or imprisonment.
Abuse of computing privileges is subject to disciplinary action, including termination of employment. If system administrators have strong evidence of misuse of computing resources, and if that evidence points to the computing activities or the computer files of an individual, they have the obligation to pursue any or all of the following steps to protect the user community:
Notify the SSO.
Notify appropriate departmental administrators
The SSO : Will notify the user's instructor, department or division chair, or supervisor of the investigation, when appropriate.
May suspend or restrict the user's computing privileges during the investigation.
May inspect the user's files, diskettes, tapes, and/or other computer-accessible storage media.
Will refer issues, when appropriate, to the appropriate University department for possible disciplinary action, i.e., this may include but not be limited to the Office of the Assistant Vice President of Computing and Information Services, the Office of the Vice President for Student Affairs, the unit administrator for staff, and the Dean of the School for faculty. Users, when requested, are expected to fully cooperate with system administrators or the SSO in any investigations of system abuse. Failure to cooperate may be grounds for cancellation of access privileges or disciplinary action, including dismissal.
When individual privileges to access University computing resources have been suspended, a user may request that the Assistant Vice President of Computing and Information Services, or his/her designee, review the suspension. The Assistant Vice President of Computing and Information Services, or designee, in his/her discretion, may reinstate privileges, alter any restrictions that have been imposed, or refuse to interfere with the administrative action taken to that time. Further appeals may be filed with the Office of Student Conduct, the University Personnel Office, or the Chair of the Faculty Council, as appropriate.
Failure to comply with these policies, rules and regulations may result in disciplinary action, up to and including dismissal. Any violation of local, state or federal laws may carry the additional consequence of prosecution under the law, where judicial action may result in specific fines or imprisonment, or both; plus the costs of litigation or the payment of damages or both; or all.
Let me know when you get that Paypal account set up.
be sure that you have the timestamp log associated with the ip's used. the isp will need that to confirm who had that address at the time of the events. most people keep the same ip's for months at a time, but not all isp'swill do that, they assign a new one on every connect. count me in if you need some $$ in paypal, we have had issues with someone similar in my home forum, and you do have legal recourse, both criminal and monetary. Notifying the isp's security departments for each of those isp's should get you started, then supplying logs and the forum entries for proof. Those actions violate most isp's TOS for harmful activities, so they will likely lose their access at the least.
li·bel (lī'bəl) pronunciation n. 1. A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation 2. The act of presenting such material to the public. 3. The written claims presented by a plaintiff in an action at admiralty law or to an ecclesiastical court.
Go get 'em, Cliff!!! We'll help you out however we can.
[Address removed by cliff: "I want this guy sued - not molested"]
Oh the fun I can have with this information
That information is priceless.
EDIT: I agree with Cliff, though. Instead of everyone contacting the school, we should find out what legal steps should be taken beforehand. Cliff, I'd contact a lawyer first; and get his advice on the matter. If the lawyer will contact the school for any needed information and alert them of the internet fraud, then great. If not, then one person from here should be chosen by Cliff to call the school on his behalf; to collect any needed information, and inform them of the fraud that was done by one of their students using their internet connection.
I would go ahead and call a lawyer, they are going to want a deposit to have them on retainer for the duration, but they might be able to give you a heads up on what you need to do and what you can do to help. The ISPs might not be too cooperative, you many need to get a lawyer to supena their records anyway.
Also, im sure you already thought of this, but make sure the password for the paypal account is secure, use numbers, upper\lower case letters and alphanumeric characters, and make it as long as it allows. They will probably do something stupid like try to get into it, and when they do, alert paypal of thier attempts. Im sure they are reading all of this, as they apparently have no lives, but some of them are so stupid im sure they will anyway.
It would be nice if you could find where they violated a law, because that would make it an international inncident, nothing like having the feds search your house and seize every electronic device in it, and hold them for months or years as evidence. Im pretty sure a lawyer would be able to shed some light on this.
I'm still searching the laws I can think of to find a violation, hoping for something allong the lines of abuse of a computer system with intent to defraud. I know they are guilty of damages through torts of libel as I told you. Also, dont forget the IC3 http://www.ic3.gov/ You dont have to be a US citizen to file with them.
Cliff, I sent you an email earlier and understand if you don't get back right away. As I stated in, I don't have much but I'll give what ever I can to get them. -Jason
It's funny... Aaron signs up for a new forum every week, then finds a way to get banned from it.
I mean how many places has he been banned from? These are just the ones I know: ... realfierotech.com ...
Doesn't anyone else find this ironic? The primary "hideout" for people who don't like this forum even booted him. I wonder how much of an idiot you have to be to get banned from there...
Doesn't anyone else find this ironic? The primary "hideout" for people who don't like this forum even booted him. I wonder how much of an idiot you have to be to get banned from there...
im there i like this forum and am not hiding from anyone. so are most everyone else there.
Im enlisting some "outside" help on this. There lives will be a living hell from here on out.
We got your back Cliff.
Keep it legal. Cliff has a strong case for Libel, and suing for damages. Don't do anything stupid that will implicate Cliff in anything illegal or damage his legal case.
Cliff, get the lawyer and proceed with libel charges and notify his school. It needs to come from your or your lawyer - preferably your lawyer. Consult the lawyer on the viability of hacking charges. If the legal definition of hacking was met, that's a felony, but you have to go by the legal definition.
And while I'm glad the forum is back online, don't let running PFF take away from your more important responsibilities.
Cliff, get the lawyer and proceed with libel charges and notify his school. It needs to come from your or your lawyer - preferably your lawyer. Consult the lawyer on the viability of hacking charges. If the legal definition of hacking was met, that's a felony, but you have to go by the legal definition.
I suppose that needs to be a US lawyer, right? So how do I get a US lawyer?
...and people give me s*** for pointing out how bad the Septic Tank is, how they cause Cliff problems. How many times do we have to say these guys are a-holes?
Oh, and to you dickheads that keep coming over here, telling us how great it is over there...why don't you stay the f* over there and quit wasting our time.
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: I suppose that needs to be a US lawyer, right? So how do I get a US lawyer?
You should consider a class action, or name all the parties who did it, and be sure that RFT and it's owner(s) and moderator(s) are included. It's time these poor excuses for human beings PAY for their bullshit.
I dont' have an y legal or IT advise for you, but as soon as you set up the Paypal account I will chip in to help out. This forum is very important to the Fiero community and I want to see it survive.
...and people give me s*** for pointing out how bad the Septic Tank is, how they cause Cliff problems. How many times do we have to say these guys are a-holes?
Oh, and to you dickheads that keep coming over here, telling us how great it is over there...why don't you stay the f* over there and quit wasting our time.
Thanks again for grouping me into being one of these bad people, because i visit real fiero tech.
You should consider a class action, or name all the parties who did it, and be sure that RFT and it's owner(s) and moderator(s) are included. It's time these poor excuses for human beings PAY for their bullshit.
it was 4 people. aaron was banned from real fiero tech, he isnt even a member there now. real fiero tech is not to blame, the mods there are not to blame, howard is not to blame, the 4 people that did it are. not everyone that happends to visist there.
so if i was a moderator on rft, even tho i had nothing to do with this, I am now going to be sued by cliff?
that makes alot of sense.
[This message has been edited by 84fierotrevor (edited 02-08-2007).]
Originally posted by squisher86SE: Doesn't anyone else find this ironic? The primary "hideout" for people who don't like this forum even booted him. I wonder how much of an idiot you have to be to get banned from there...
The place that "doesn't ban people" banned him. You'd have to be a pretty big @55 to pull that off...
quote
Originally posted by Raydar: The ironic thing is... Aaron is(was?) trying to start a career in law enforcement.
As an expert witness for the state of Indiana (IT Consulting, computer forensics, etc) I would like to inform you that you do have a case of being "hacked"..
The basic definition of "hacking" is to use a device or software application for a purpose in which it was not intended through the exploiting or re-designing of various features, structures, or interfaces to that device or application.
It would not be a difficult task to prove in court, that these individuals utilized the software (your support forum) in a manor or fashion in which it was not intended. I can guarentee you that when you setup your forum, you did not intend it to be used to send a personal and private message to every registered memeber of your forum by another memeber. Yes, one or two personal messages as they pertained to a certain subject matter.. but not every single person.
The first thing I would do if I was you.. is to stop saying "there was no hacking involved".. and remove that from every place where you've stated it in the past. You were indeed hacked. The cuplrits in this case did not use an exploit, social engineering, or any other such "common" means, but the fact is they did indeed hack you.
Ok, I finally had the time to go through my emails to answer them. And there has been a lot of good information in them:
quote
For saying that you are a fraud, you should be able to sue for either slander or liable and also for defamation of business. By him staking claim to your program he is violating copyright laws.
quote
I saw your latest comment, that you weren't hacked, but messages with fraudulent claims were PM'd to customers on your website.
I still think their activity may fall under this definition:
Q: Do you have a definition of Internet crime that I can refer to? Internet crime is defined as any illegal activity involving one or more components of the Internet, such as websites, chat rooms, and/or email. Internet crime involves the use of the Internet to communicate false or fraudulent representations to consumers. These crimes may include, but are not limited to, advance-fee schemes, non-delivery of goods or services, computer hacking, or employment/business opportunity schemes.
Clearly "Aaron" used your website to make fraudulent claims; namely that HE wrote the software.
It may still be a good ideal to file a complaint here: http://www.ic3.gov
quote
I know these are crimes in the US and they are strictly inforced. I'm not a cop but most of my family are and one of your members is a Member of a police affiliation here in the states. I have already contacted him to let him know whats going on and he's trying to get the info on these a-holes. He simply wishes not to be know so i was asked to send you this e-mail... so... we're trying. i hope you get these a-holes.
Trevor, STFU. If you like it so much over here, go there and f'ing stay there.
Oh and BTW, it's "get-a-clue" time for Trevor: YOU group yourself with them by hanging out there, and coming here defending the place. YOU DO, get it?
No I visit more then one forum, if some dude that happend to spam this forum forum from r1 forums.com i wouldnt go try and take down that whole forum.
ur anaology is this: someone that lives in this negborhood commited a crime, solve it? blow up the whole neighborhood.
honest to god, why would u sue a person for somnthing he did not do, because he is a member of the same forum, someone else did?
u make no rational sense what so ever, and all u can do is say hey, screw the septic forum, avenger1 and other people that are upset in this thread, about what happend are members there too, should they be sued as well? aaron isnt even a member of rft anymore, he is now on a caddilac forum, so lets sue all of them right? all there mods and the owners of that site? lol strait up god honest. i have never seen someone with as much errational thought as u. and I worked in a mental institution.
pm me from now on. so we dont get off topic on this thread.
[This message has been edited by 84fierotrevor (edited 02-08-2007).]
You should consider a class action, or name all the parties who did it, and be sure that RFT and it's owner(s) and moderator(s) are included. It's time these poor excuses for human beings PAY for their bullshit.
I don't agree with this. Anyone has the right to go to and be a member of any web site they wish (agreeing that some "adult" sites for example require that you be of a certain age and all that). Just because some people decide to go and be a member on RFT doesn't automatically make them criminals when one or two members registered there decide to do soemthing illegal. If a member here on PFF went and did something illegal, it doesn't make you or me or any other member on here automatically linked to that event as well and guilty also.
Edit: Sorry Cliff. I was posting this reply when you were posting the message above.
[This message has been edited by Fiero5 (edited 02-08-2007).]
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