Well, If you ever plan to vacation in Hawaii in the next ten years, you better do it now. The Radioactive plume from Fukishima is just months away from Hawaii. And the effects from it will last for ten years they are saying. It will hit the california coast Early next year as well. They are expecting some radiation fallout, but how much is debateable. Personally I say ANY is too much. We can probably expect higher cancer rates and genetic mutations of plant life. If the doseage is high enough, you may see mutations in animal life as well. We are already seeing it in the sea life between Japan and California.
Why do we not hear more about this on the news? Becsause they don't want to upset the sheeple... Upset Sheeple demand nukes be closed.
How does this compare to the nuclear testing (from around the world), in the past.... or any other nuke power radiation leak? Just asking, as I don't see this to be much of an issue, compared to what we have experienced in the past.
It is much much MUCH worse. The Nuclear tests that have been done around the world all put together would not equal the current fallout from Fukishima. And Fukishima is currently spewing 1000's of gallons a day of radioactive water into the Ocean and ground water. It is also believed that at least two of their still active nuclear cores have breached containment and are burning into the ground below them.
This is by far the worst nuclear disaster this plant has seen since man has been on it.
[This message has been edited by 8Ball (edited 08-29-2013).]
from a 2011 article, so it is old, but is there other data out there? " Figures from the United Nations put the total bomb radiation from decades of atmospheric testing at almost 70 billion curies. By contrast, the 1986 accident at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant released about 100 million curies of the most dangerous materials.
As for Fukushima Daiichi, Japanese officials said on April 12 that the reactor complex had released about 10 million curies. In 1979, the reactor accident at Three Mile Island released about 50 curies into the environment.
A curie is the amount of radiation given off by one gram of radium and, in any nuclear material, is equal to the disintegration of 37 billion atoms per second. An old-style luminous watch dial with 12 radium dots emitted about three one-thousandths of a curie. "
I don't doubt there is a major issue there, but I would like other data to help bracket what I am reading.
It is much much MUCH worse. The Nuclear tests that have been done around the world all put together would not equal the current fallout from Fukishima. And Fukishima is currently spewing 1000's of gallons a day of radioactive water into the Ocean and ground water. It is also believed that at least two of their still active nuclear cores have breached containment and are burning into the ground below them.
No talk at all, and it is still releaseing radioactive junk. That is messed up. Clean up efforts stopped, or just cannot be effective?
Everything I have read about this leads me to believe that it isn't even remotely under control. All they're doing is pouring water on it to stop if from exploding. All that water has got to go somewhere.
They are constantly lieing about the amount released. The NRC ranks this as the worst nuclear disaster EVER and put it at a level 7 which is the top level. Japan says it is a level 3.
They have been (trying) to stop it. But they cannot. They used cheaply made water tanks to store the radioactive water, but those are now leaking. The contaminated water has leaked into the ground and into a massive Aquafier that is under the plant. Fails all around.
There are tens of thousands of gallons of HIGHLY radioactive water dumping direct into the sea every week. The Radioactive ground water is now believed to be just 9 foot below the surface and rising fast. The cores are believed to have broken thru the bottom of their containment vessels and are believed to be burning thru the ground below the plant.
The are is so radioactive that even robots cannot be sent in to work on anything. The radiation cancels out their control signals.
Yes, it REALLY is that bad. It is FAR worse than Chernobyl.
Japan has stuck a MAJOR blow to themselves and the world's health. As of yet it has only gotten WORSE since the day it happened.
[This message has been edited by 8Ball (edited 08-29-2013).]
How this continuing contamination will affect marine life, or humans, is still unclear. But scientists agree that the governments of Japan, the United States, and other nations on the Pacific Rim need to ramp up studies of how far this contamination might spread and in what concentrations.
“Given that the Fukushima nuclear power plant is on the ocean, and with leaks and runoff directly to the ocean, the impacts on the ocean will exceed those of Chernobyl, which was hundreds of miles from any sea,” said Ken Buesseler, senior scientist in marine chemistry at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts. “My biggest concern is the lack of information. We still don’t know the whole range of radioactive compounds that have been released into the ocean, nor do we know their distribution. We have a few data points from the Japanese — all close to the coast — but to understand the full impact, including for fisheries, we need broader surveys and scientific study of the area.”
"Is there a way to remove radioactivity? A: No. Often radioactive particles are absorbed inside plants or meat, and washing or cooking may not remove them. " ...
How does this compare to the nuclear testing (from around the world), in the past.... or any other nuke power radiation leak? Just asking, as I don't see this to be much of an issue, compared to what we have experienced in the past.
How does this compare to the nuclear testing (from around the world), in the past.... or any other nuke power radiation leak? Just asking, as I don't see this to be much of an issue, compared to what we have experienced in the past.
Since water itself cannot become radioactive and fallout radionuclide particles are heavier than most water matters, fallout material tends to settle to the bottom of lakes or reservoirs. Settling thus becomes one of the simplest and effective way of separating the radioactive contaminants from the pure water itself.
I'm not saying it's not a concern, but most of those radiation maps are just looking at air and water currents on the assumption contaminated water is homogeneously mixed with sea water.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 08-29-2013).]
Curies is the old unit of measure, rarely used anymore except to derive other useful and meaningful measurements. Even the DOE and EPA accepts that "land farming" radioactive material is an acceptable way of dealing with certain isotopes of radioactive material, and the acceptable level is in SI (Seivert -units of activity) which is always expressed in Bq/gram or Bq/Kg--not Curies. This holds true in soil, concrete, and water, including seawater. You can derive Si from Cs as follows: 1 Ci = 3.7×1010 Bq = 37 GBq 1 μCi = 37,000 Bq = 37 kBq 1 Bq = 2.7×10−11 Ci = 2.7×10−5 μCi 1 GBq = 0.027 Ci
In air, the activity is expressed in Bq/cu meter. The area right around Fukishima will have a very high concentration of radiactive activity, while the further out to sea it is carried, the activity (measured in Si and expressed in Bq/g will be substantially less, as the isotopes are spread out in an ever increasing volume of seawater.
Untill there is a known measurement of the contaminated seawater (or air) around Hawaii, no one on either sidehas any real proof of any danger--or safety.
(I was an RSO for 10 years back in the late 80s and 90s)
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 08-29-2013).]
I'm not saying it's not a concern, but most of those radiation maps are just looking at air and water currents on the assumption contaminated water is homogeneously mixed with sea water.
It's worth mentioning here that the water itself is not radioactive, it is trace elements (e.g. cesium-137, half life ~30 years; strontium-90, half life ~29 years) dissolved in the water or as microscopic particles suspended in and transported by the water.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 08-29-2013).]
There are many things that showed up on USA shores in few weeks following the earthquake. While I do believe in the value of dilution, the heavy water(?), or contaminated water could piggy back on fish, wood, ships, and make an unsafe situation. As bad as Fukishima is, I understand Chernobyl was made of worst choice materials that burned and went into the air and later the ground.
There are many things that showed up on USA shores in few weeks following the earthquake. While I do believe in the value of dilution, the heavy water(?), or contaminated water could piggy back on fish, wood, ships, and make an unsafe situation. As bad as Fukishima is, I understand Chernobyl was made of worst choice materials that burned and went into the air and later the ground.
I would assume it would get in the food chain too.
Everything I have read about this leads me to believe that it isn't even remotely under control. All they're doing is pouring water on it to stop if from exploding. All that water has got to go somewhere.
I'm confused here... I'm not a Nuclear Physicist, or scientist, or whatever... but I was under the impression that the water could not be irradiated?
In nuclear power plants, water is used to cool the rods in the pool... and my understanding is that that same water eventually either evaporates in the towers, or get recirculated back into a lake... like Turkey Point in Florida. My understanding is that this water is also warm, and the crocs love it... which had a very positive affect on the crocodile population, much to the surprise of environmentalists who claimed the plant would destroy the wildlife:
In basic terms--Yes, a heat exchanger. There's a primary loop that cools the rods, which transmits it's heat to the water in a secondary loop, which turns to steam which powers the turbines that drive the generators. The towers emit excess steam from the secondary loop.
Here's a real basic diagram of the type plant at 3 Mile Island.
And as MM already mentioned, h20 itself doesn't become radioactive--it's just a medium to carry dissolved or minute particles of different elements--some are actively radioactive--most are not.
Water is one of the hidden, rarely discussed environmental costs of nuclear power plants. Water, in the form of steam, is typically what's used to turn the heat from the nuclear reaction into energy--with a turbine. But nuclear power plants also use water to help shield the reactor core from the rest of the facility, and the rest of the world.
That's what makes the "radioactive water" coming from Fukushima so puzzling. Water cannot be made radioactive. It simply won't absorb the waves of neutrons being put out by the reactor cores. It's in part why nuclear power plants use water right inside the reactor. It's why "spent" nuclear fuel is typically stored immersed in pools of water. The water keeps the fuel cool, but equally valuable, it is a great radiation shield.
So in what way is the water pouring from Fukushima into the Pacific radioactive?
The water accumulating around the Fukushima reactors, and then leaking into the ocean, is dirty, and it's the debris that is radioactive. The debris may be ordinary dirt, material from the buildings after the explosions, or the failing metal and concrete structure of the reactors themselves.
But since the water itself is not radioactive, it can be cleaned. Water, in fact, is one of the few substances that can be de-radiated. The radiation can be taken from it by simply filtering--basic filtering of the dirt, and more sophisticated filtering, using something called ion-exchange beds, to get both suspended dirty and dissolved substances out.
It's a bit more complicated than running the stuff from your tap through a Brita filter. But it's also not that different. In fact, every nuclear reactor does precisely that kind of filtering all the time--nuclear plants routinely super-clean their reactor water, precisely to prevent any debris from starting to circulate (corrosion from pipes or valves, for instance) that would quickly become radioactive.
The Fukushima water can be cleaned as simply as allowing it to evaporate, in open ponds. What will be left, of course, will be a layer of debris, which will be radioactive. But that material was radioactive to start--before it contaminated the water. Disposing of radioactive debris is mostly a matter of security and time--but solids don't migrate the way water carrying radioactivity does.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 08-29-2013).]
I have no worries at all about radiation from contaminated water going all the way across the Pacific Ocean before it reaches California shores.
I seriously doubt that it will be detectable. I'll bet it won't be detectable at Hawaii either. I want to know the margin of error on that measurement.
The second illustration with the animation is much closer to reality for Pressurized Water Reactors in the US. Not only is there a primary water system that circulates and takes heat from the reactor rods and then transfers it to the secondary water system in the Steam Generator. The secondary water is boiled in the Steam Generator and goes out as steam to power the turbines, where most of its energy is used to turn the turbines which in-turn turn the electrical generators and produces the electricity we use. Below the turbines there is a device called a condenser that is cooled by either tower water or pond water. This cools the secondary system water further and also draws low pressure on the condenser side of the turbines making them more efficient.
So there are three water systems in this Pressurized Water Reactor. These act as barriers to having radioactive material from the core escape to the outside world. The first barrier is the walls of the rods which are mostly made of Zirconium. Not a whole lot of radioactive material gets through those walls in a normally operating reactor. If it does it still has to pass through the barrier of the tubes in the Steam Generator to get from the primary to the secondary. Then you would need to have the radioactive material pass from the secondary water through the tubes of the condenser to get to the water that is exposed to the atmosphere in the cooling towers or in the water ponds of the nuclear plant. So the water vapor you see at the water tower has very little likelihood of getting to the outside world and it is monitored continuously and things will be shut down if it reaches a level that might cause concerns.
The Reactors in Japan were a different design. They were Boiling water reactors and only have a primary and a secondary system so there are less barriers for the radioactive material to get to the outside world.
And yes there is a radioactive reaction that makes the water radioactive. If a neutron hits the water molecule it can make the oxygen highly energetic and then sheds a Beta particle. This then turns the oxygen into nitrogen that is unstable. The half time on this is very short and it decays back to oxygen very quickly so that no one would be exposed to this radioactivity unless you were in close proximity to the reactor vessel during operation and if you were that close the water's radioactivity would be the least of your concerns.
Now I am not up on all the new terms and scales of radioactivity since I was a reactor operator in the Navy during the early 70's and in the very early 80's I also worked as an operator at a civilian nuclear plant. Now that I have established a few credentials. I would also like to state that I do believe that you are hearing a lot of uninformed hype about the radioactive water plume. Most of the radioactive material will decay down before anything hits the US. There are some longer lived materials that are daughter products of the nuclear reaction, but they are a very small proportion of all the radioactive stuff released. The most worrisome area would be close to where the water is being discharged. And another point is that the reactors are not now critical and producing more radioactive material. Any heat still coming off of the core is residual heat which decays exponentially after the reactor is shut down. I still monitor the nuclear news and there is and has not been any indication that any of these reactors has become critical again which would lead to more material being built up, or causing the reactor core to melt through the earth in a China Syndrome like someone has alluded to.
... or causing the reactor core to melt through the earth in a China Syndrome like someone has alluded to.
I tend to believe that sooner or later, an uncontrolled melt is inevitable. At some point, the area around the site is going to become too contaminated to be worked in or around.
I suppose my question is what would happen in such a situation? I would think that there would be a nice beam of radioactivity projected out of the hole in an ever narrowing beam. Probably accompanied by lots of radioactive steam. (Or at least particulates, since radioactive water is not a possibility. Did I get that right?) At some point, I have to believe that the earth would just fall in on the molten blob. Would that tend to cause it to go critical and explode? Or would it, at some point, just reach a depth where it would become insignificant? As hot as the earth is, below ground, it makes me wonder if it would reach a certain level and just disburse in the rest of the molten material.
Could make an interesting sci-fi film, for sure. ("China Syndrome II, the aftermath", anybody?) Not to make light of an ugly situation.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-29-2013).]
And yes there is a radioactive reaction that makes the water radioactive. If a neutron hits the water molecule it can make the oxygen highly energetic and then sheds a Beta particle. This then turns the oxygen into nitrogen that is unstable. The half time on this is very short and it decays back to oxygen very quickly so that no one would be exposed to this radioactivity unless you were in close proximity to the reactor vessel during operation and if you were that close the water's radioactivity would be the least of your concerns.
I thought neutrons were always 'hitting' the water molecules around the fuel--that's what makes the water a moderator.
I thought neutrons were always 'hitting' the water molecules around the fuel--that's what makes the water a moderator.
Yep, they do. The water molecules do act as moderators, which in nuclear terms means that they reduce the energy of the neutrons which hopefully brings them down to what is called a thermal neutron which is what then reacts with the U-235 or the PU-239 to cause fission. There are a few fissions cause by high energy neutrons, but that is relatively small in number. The water also acts as a reflector to turn the neutrons back towards the fuel too. All of this is part of what is called the six factor formula that determines criticality.
And when these neutrons hit the water molecule they sometimes interact with the oxygen in the molecule and causes it to change to a nitrogen atom that is highly unstable. This highly unstable atom wants to become stable again and goes through a radiation release to become stable again. Like I said the half life is very very short.
I tend to believe that sooner or later, an uncontrolled melt is inevitable. At some point, the area around the site is going to become too contaminated to be worked in or around.
When I first read this I thought maybe, but very unlikely. Then I reread it and you are referring to the Fukishima site and it is not going to happen. It cannot go critical now. Any radioactive material has already been created and since there is no criticallity there will be no build up or radioactive material. There might be more release, but this is a separate thing. It would be a release of already made radioactive particles.
It's worth mentioning here that the water itself is not radioactive, it is trace elements (e.g. cesium-137, half life ~30 years; strontium-90, half life ~29 years) dissolved in the water or as microscopic particles suspended in and transported by the water.
I suppose my question is what would happen in such a situation? I would think that there would be a nice beam of radioactivity projected out of the hole in an ever narrowing beam. Probably accompanied by lots of radioactive steam. (Or at least particulates, since radioactive water is not a possibility. Did I get that right?) At some point, I have to believe that the earth would just fall in on the molten blob. Would that tend to cause it to go critical and explode? Or would it, at some point, just reach a depth where it would become insignificant? As hot as the earth is, below ground, it makes me wonder if it would reach a certain level and just disburse in the rest of the molten material.
Could make an interesting sci-fi film, for sure. ("China Syndrome II, the aftermath", anybody?) Not to make light of an ugly situation.
Well, you are right on one thing. It is Sci-Fi. Maybe you should read up on how nuclear fission works and not misuse terms like you did with "beam of radioactivity". You might get a beam of radiation, but unless you have a neutron gun or a particle accelerator you will not get a beam of radioactivity or radioactive particles on the move.
As I explained above there is such a thing as radioactive water, which is caused by neutron impingement of the water molecules.
And there will be no China Syndrome. It is too late. Most of the decay heat from fission is gone. There is nothing that will make this pile go critical again. Sorry, but it is not going to happen. Well, maybe it will happen in another Jane Fonda mad scientist movie from Hollywood, but not in the real world.
Yep, they do. The water molecules do act as moderators, which in nuclear terms means that they reduce the energy of the neutrons which hopefully brings them down to what is called a thermal neutron which is what then reacts with the U-235 or the PU-239 to cause fission. There are a few fissions cause by high energy neutrons, but that is relatively small in number. The water also acts as a reflector to turn the neutrons back towards the fuel too. All of this is part of what is called the six factor formula that determines criticality.
And when these neutrons hit the water molecule they sometimes interact with the oxygen in the molecule and causes it to change to a nitrogen atom that is highly unstable. This highly unstable atom wants to become stable again and goes through a radiation release to become stable again. Like I said the half life is very very short.
How short? milliseconds?
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 08-29-2013).]
Measured in seconds if I can remember back that far. Something like 15 seconds after the reactor is shut down and no more neutrons are flying around and it is all gone.
And there will be no China Syndrome. It is too late. Most of the decay heat from fission is gone. There is nothing that will make this pile go critical again. Sorry, but it is not going to happen. Well, maybe it will happen in another Jane Fonda mad scientist movie from Hollywood, but not in the real world.
You seem to be suggesting without fission there can't be any material melting. Don't the fuel rods remain "hot" for quite some time due to decay?
Well, you are right on one thing. It is Sci-Fi. Maybe you should read up on how nuclear fission works and not misuse terms like you did with "beam of radioactivity". You might get a beam of radiation, but unless you have a neutron gun or a particle accelerator you will not get a beam of radioactivity or radioactive particles on the move.
As I explained above there is such a thing as radioactive water, which is caused by neutron impingement of the water molecules.
And there will be no China Syndrome. It is too late. Most of the decay heat from fission is gone. There is nothing that will make this pile go critical again. Sorry, but it is not going to happen. Well, maybe it will happen in another Jane Fonda mad scientist movie from Hollywood, but not in the real world.
Excuse me for not using a proper term. I was merely talking about the cylindrical hole that might result, and the resulting stream of "whatever" that would be located directly above the hole. I have to assume that it would be focused, at least a bit.
As for "criticality", I never meant to imply that the molten material would or wouldn't go critical. (Edit - My bad... I did ask about that...) I figure that whatever it does - or doesn't do - it's going to be plenty hot, for a while, especially if the workers at Fukushima have to bail. I wondered how far it would go before it reached a gravitational equilibrium - or was diluted enough that it was no longer burning through the layers of rock, and what the final result would be.
I don't mean to come off as one of those "we're all gonna die" types. I tend to discount those folks. The same as the "climate changers". Just trying to learn from someone who knows more about it than I do.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-29-2013).]
You seem to be suggesting without fission there can't be any material melting. Don't the fuel rods remain "hot" for quite some time due to decay?
Yes there is decay heat, but it decreases exponentially. So after the first few weeks or months it is down pretty good. There will be some heat for a long time from the decay of the daughter products, but if you keep them covered with water it is enough. Right after shut down there is residual decay heat that is proportional to how long and at what power you were running at before shut down. At this time you need to have a lot of water flowing over the core at that time. Otherwise the water will just boil away. And when water boils away you have the steam come in contact with the Zirconium cladding on the fuel. This is a very bad condition that first of all causes raw hydrogen gas to be released. That is what caused most of the explosions at Fukishima. Also, the Zirconium has a chemical reaction with the hydrogen and becomes Zirc Hydrite (or maybe Zirc Hydratte, it has been so long I can't remember which). This is a physically unstable structure in that it is basically a ceramic powder. If this happens then the fuel pellets can fall out of the reactor rods. This is where it can become dangerous and possibly cause what is called a China Syndrome because physically these pellets can come closer together which might cause criticality. Now because it is so far away from shut down it won't happen. So to summarize the problem that can cause China Syndrome would only happen close in time to the shutdown.
I wondered how far it would go before it reached a gravitational equilibrium - or was diluted enough that it was no longer burning through the layers of rock, and what the final result would be.
I don't mean to come off as one of those "we're all gonna die" types. I tend to discount those folks. The same as the "climate changers". Just trying to learn from someone who knows more about it than I do.
Raydar:
I think the previous post about how much heat and how long kind of answers your questions. I am not trying to dis you on this. It is just that the main stream media and others are so uninformed about nuclear reactors, radioactivity, radiation and other things pertinent to what happened at Fukishima that it becomes a problem for most people. I really thing the MSM loves to get out to something like this and spin it as bad as they can, that way they can get more viewers. But, that does harm to everyone. For those that listen to this BS it can cause a lot of worry and grief. There are so many people who react emotionally to anything that is involved with nuclear reactors that they then respond in an inappropriate manner. Politicians and enviro nuts can then manipulate people to get elected or to cause hysteria since it suits their agenda.
As bad as Fukishima was there was not a whole lot of loss of life. There are some very serious concerns though. Some of which are the contamination of the area around the reactors and down wind along with the ocean close to the plants. It at the least should cause planners for future reactors and for current reactors to rethink some things. Like:
How close to the ocean you should place a nuclear plant. What kind of protection should you have for Tsunami waves. What kind of backup systems for power should you have and how many different backups. Should you even build a nuclear plant in an active earthquake area. Should you upgrade/update older versions of nuclear reactors in light of what has happened in Fukishima. Should you even use Boiling Water Reactors at all or should they be redesigned with more safety features.
I could probably come up with more things to think about, but that should be enough for now.
and i think it would already be here.
