This is a tragedy that happened about 3 miles from my house. This theater was destroyed with our last tornado system. I am told it is one of the largest in the nation. It is nice. I'm not really a movie goer.
In my view he was dead before the set him upright. I think the police knew and that's why they were propping him up. As I understand it, they confiscated the woman's phone for 2 weeks. You can at one point here an officer say he will hold her phone for her. I've heard they are on paid administrative leave.
I'm glad my photos and video are immediately uploaded to the cloud. They can take my phone all they want. This would have been live within minutes had it been me (after consulting my attorney).
Regardless of misconduct, that aches me. I've never thought Moore police were brutal. I've spoke with them hundreds of times when I managed a local grocery. To me this is truly "terror in the heartland". That's what they called it back in 95 when Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah building. I have always felt the Moore PD was overly aggressive with ticketing in regards to traffic violations. I haven't spoken with any of my police acquaintances about this. Honestly, I don't want to draw any attention to me for wondering.
It's horrific. It is all anyone in my community of about 55,000 are talking about. I'm not dealing with Moore public any longer, but people from OKC and it's surrounding metros are very upset. Moore has been growing for at least the last 10 years. It is considered a VERY desirable school district. House values tend to reflect as such comparatively. Renting prices are higher. It is a fairly crime free area. I've left my garage open no less than 50 times. The keys were in my cars and I've never had anything stolen. The worst I've experienced is over-zealous tickets for traffic violations (not me personally I am a ticket avoid-er). Police have a very great response time. We have 3 firehouses. I've lived here full-time for about 20 years. This is usually just a rather quiet community.
I have seen much more brutal videos of death and gore. This one is tame compared to that, but I find myself needing a ****ing zanax!!!
My heart goes out to that family.
I think that's kind of the point. This was openly taped. It seemed as though they broke the man's neck under what is being deemed normal procedure. He (I believe) was dead before they upright-ted him. I think they then lied to the woman. Knowing full well he had been killed. All for (what it seems) trying to intervene in an altercation between his daughter and wife.
The guilt this family has to live with breaks my heart.
Look at it this way. I have always worried about when a day comes that cops get totally out of hand. I can imagine my tremendous guilt from what will come of that. My actions being justified wouldn't alleviate that feeling. I can't help that. I am a good person and would rather protect life.
But more and more I am less worried . I feel much better about it now.
Sorry about the loss of life due to police brutality, but a note of correction, the theater that you speak of was not destroyed in the last tornado. It was back open less than two weeks from the day of the tornado.
What the theater chain boasts is the largest IMAX screens in the world as the location in Moore isn't the only one with that IMAX screen, but as far as megaplex size, or the number of screens there are plenty that are larger and have more screens.
Originally posted by ls3mach: Moore has been growing for at least the last 10 years. It is considered a VERY desirable school district. House values tend to reflect as such comparatively. Renting prices are higher. It is a fairly crime free area. I've left my garage open no less than 50 times. The keys were in my cars and I've never had anything stolen.
I lived there from 1981 to 1983. 12th and Sequoya. It was a nice town. I did a drive through a little over a year ago for a nostalgic look see. Grown quite a bit and still looked nice.
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Originally posted by ls3mach: I've never thought Moore police were brutal.
I think all police are taught to go from zero to sixty in one second when it comes to escalating resistance. Maybe a case of not knowing their own strength, per say. A lack of real world training. The police arrive for a "domestic". The husband resisted. The police, not knowing the situation, tried to protect his wife from his advances.
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Originally posted by ls3mach: In my view he was dead before the set him upright. I think the police knew and that's why they were propping him up.
I agree. The officer also was acting as a camera shield while interacting with the woman.
I guess I'll come off as an ass...but I don't see this a police brutality. Bad accident, where they didn't react properly perhaps, but not brutality. Let's face it...this is a big guy. As Cliff said, if he's walking (how fast?) towards his wife and not responding to lawful orders then he will likely get taken down (normal response for the safety of everyone)...with his size, he'll be going down hard, not a surprise if his neck got broken. I think I saw one cop giving a small shake to see if he is responsive, but hard to see if anyone even thought to check a pulse. Maybe they knew he was dead, maybe they didn't even think to check. Should this have happened? No...but sometimes sh!t happens. My condolences for his family.
This is why I believe a law should be in effect that if you are the victim of police brutality you should be allowed to defend yourself.. this is outrageous...
This is why I believe a law should be in effect that if you are the victim of police brutality you should be allowed to defend yourself.. this is outrageous...
That just makes no sense at all (I don't mean to be disrespectful of your opinion PK)
....so if you think they are using excessive force, what do you do? Pull a knife? a gun? throw a punch? What differentiates you from someone aggressively resisting arrest? Nothing. Which means you'll reap the full reward and probably end up dead. (I still feel this particular case was more accidental than excessive...and I'm sure there'll be a shoddy investigation that backs this up regardless of whatever really happened )
People may not like the fact that someone not following lawful orders gets taken to the ground hard, but this is a necessary evil a many cases.
I guess I'll come off as an ass...but I don't see this a police brutality. Bad accident, where they didn't react properly perhaps, but not brutality. Let's face it...this is a big guy. As Cliff said, if he's walking (how fast?) towards his wife and not responding to lawful orders then he will likely get taken down (normal response for the safety of everyone)...with his size, he'll be going down hard, not a surprise if his neck got broken. I think I saw one cop giving a small shake to see if he is responsive, but hard to see if anyone even thought to check a pulse. Maybe they knew he was dead, maybe they didn't even think to check. Should this have happened? No...but sometimes sh!t happens. My condolences for his family.
Or since we're doing maybes-- maybe they didn't care. That's the usual attitude--sometimes sh!t happens--shrug--oh well, high fives all around guys, grab the phone and let's go into damage control mode--to protect and serve.
I guess I'll come off as an ass...but I don't see this a police brutality. Bad accident, where they didn't react properly perhaps, but not brutality. Let's face it...this is a big guy. As Cliff said, if he's walking (how fast?) towards his wife and not responding to lawful orders then he will likely get taken down (normal response for the safety of everyone)...with his size, he'll be going down hard, not a surprise if his neck got broken. I think I saw one cop giving a small shake to see if he is responsive, but hard to see if anyone even thought to check a pulse. Maybe they knew he was dead, maybe they didn't even think to check. Should this have happened? No...but sometimes sh!t happens. My condolences for his family.
If you accidentally kill someone, you'll likely be charged with involuntary manslaughter.
If you accidentally kill someone, you'll likely be charged with involuntary manslaughter.
If you have a Badge, it's just an "oops" while performing your duty. The "perp" is usually blamed as "resisting arrest" - and of course NO arrest is unlawful.
Perhaps the police officers could have just asked him nicely to stop what he was doing.
I understand your point, but the cop blocking the video, the actions of the other cops propping him up, and the cop with his giant body pressed HARD against that man's head are things that I cannot get past.
Not knocking you. Honestly. I am just sickened by what I saw.
Sorry about the loss of life due to police brutality, but a note of correction, the theater that you speak of was not destroyed in the last tornado. It was back open less than two weeks from the day of the tornado.
What the theater chain boasts is the largest IMAX screens in the world as the location in Moore isn't the only one with that IMAX screen, but as far as megaplex size, or the number of screens there are plenty that are larger and have more screens.
FWIW
The theater was beat to **** . I don't think it was open within two weeks. It is within 2 miles of my house. I don't go to movies, but the ENTIRE neighborhood was still closed. Local traffic only after two weeks. That theater is between SW19th and SW4th. My mother lives on NW9, where I grew up. I live around NW15th. It was mayhem. Maybe I am mistaken, only because I refused to go near the troubles. I didn't want to cause more congestion due to people who "needed to see". I can find out the specifics if needed.
Perhaps the police officers could have just asked him nicely to stop what he was doing.
Yes-"Please stop, or -----------we'll kill you." That will work--since that IS what happened. You can blow it off and shrug if you want to, tighten up that long blue line of protection, but last time I looked, even resisting arrest is not a capital crime--not to mention the due process thing. "Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law". The police tho, will never see a court of law. Handled internally--that tightened up long blue line of protection.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-28-2014).]
The theater was beat to **** . I don't think it was open within two weeks. It is within 2 miles of my house. I don't go to movies, but the ENTIRE neighborhood was still closed. Local traffic only after two weeks. That theater is between SW19th and SW4th. My mother lives on NW9, where I grew up. I live around NW15th. It was mayhem. Maybe I am mistaken, only because I refused to go near the troubles. I didn't want to cause more congestion due to people who "needed to see". I can find out the specifics if needed.
I drove down I-35 just an hour before the tornado hit. I was going to Blanchard, OK and that is where I was when the tornado hit and I had no clue until I left to go back to OKC that a tornado hit.
Where I was in Blanchard it just sprinkled a bit with no indication of a bad storm other than storm warnings on the radio during driving. Of course nobody could call me because the cell phone circuits were overloaded or/and down.
I left Blanchard about 5:00pm that day and it took me till 10:00pm to get around that area and out of OKC. It was a mess for sure.
Yes-"Please stop, or -----------we'll kill you." That will work--since that IS what happened. You can blow it off and shrug if you want to, tighten up that long blue line of protection, but last time I looked, even resisting arrest is not a capital crime--not to mention the due process thing. "Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law". The police tho, will never see a court of law. Handled internally--that tightened up long blue line of protection.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."
Obviously the man is dead. That wasn't the intention. If you think it was...just wow...
They f**ked up. There is no question of that. I'm not defending the after actions. But think about this objectively for a minute. How do you stop a guy who is potentially about to inflict harm on someone? (hindsight is 20-20, but they don't know his intentions). You obviously have to stop him from advancing. What if he is armed? Everyone here promotes that everybody should be armed in the US (not arguing the point, just stating it as a fact...it is his right). Do you just hope he isn't armed? Do you have your guns drawn in case he pulls out a gun? ...in which he ignores you and carries on toward a potential victim unless you shoot him. Does one person attempt to get in the way risking being punched, stabbed, etc...? He's not obeying a lawful order, so no idea what his intentions are...or his state of mind. Standard procedure is to place him in custody asap, for their protection and for his protection. If one person tries, then a fight ensues with possible severe injury resulting. If three of more police tackle him...much more likely that he'll be taken down, his arms will be held in a way that he can't reach for a weapon (which could otherwise potentially result in a shooting of him, a cop, a bystander, a child, etc). In THIS case...it didn't work out as per training. Ever trip while walking down the street? Ever break a bone unexpectedly? Sh!t happens...in this case with lethal, disastrous results. However, think of the stats for the thousands of times a person is safely and effectively taken into custody...everyday...ensuring no one else is put at risk. They did the correct thing...an accident happened...then they didn't react quickly or appropriately. Nothing more.
Bottom line. Cops say stop, then f**king stop. Obey lawful orders....and yes, they ARE lawful orders. Just because half the people here have a huge chip on their shoulder with respect to cops, doesn't change the fact that they are out there doing a damn dangerous job amongst a lot of people with issues.
There is so much wrong with that reply--so much that goes against our constitution that I really don't know how to address it. So many imaginary "what ifs" instead of addressing the reality of the event. Nice try tho.
There is so much wrong with that reply--so much that goes against our constitution that I really don't know how to address it. So many imaginary "what ifs" instead of addressing the reality of the event. Nice try tho.
Please educate me. You are a cop. In front of you is someone approaching a lady. He ignores you. Please explain to me your actions.
Originally posted by Neils88: You are a cop. In front of you is someone approaching a lady. He ignores you. Please explain to me your actions.
I will play. In front of me someone is approaching a lady. He seems to have bad intent. I am not a cop. I step in by myself, get my azz kicked, and the lady gets away. Scenario #2 I have a buddy with me. We both interfere with his actions. A scuffle ensues. The lady gets away. Scenario #3 I am a cop. I taze him. They acted like a wild pack of dogs.
Scenario #1 You Taser him. He falls to the ground face first. Breaks his nose. Blood everywhere. Caught on video. Everybody screams bloody murder for police brutality.
Scenario #2 You Taser him. He's overweight...heart fails. He dies. Caught on video. Everybody screams bloody murder for police brutality.
...of course not every precinct carry Tasers...and they aren't always effective...
Please educate me. You are a cop. In front of you is someone approaching a lady. He ignores you. Please explain to me your actions.
Based n the above parameters? Easy. I do nothing. Based on the above, he is in a place he has a right to be, doing something he has a right to do. Millions of men, in plain view of cops, walk toward ladies every day. Those same millions of men live to make it home that night.
Originally posted by Neils88: Scenario #1 You Taser him. He falls to the ground face first. Breaks his nose. Blood everywhere. Caught on video. Everybody screams bloody murder for police brutality.
He goes home alive.
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Originally posted by Neils88: Scenario #2 You Taser him. He's overweight...heart fails. He dies. Caught on video. Everybody screams bloody murder for police brutality.
He dies ? Cops don't know CPR, ? The medics were there pretty quick.
Based n the above parameters? Easy. I do nothing. Based on the above, he is in a place he has a right to be, doing something he has a right to do. Millions of men, in plain view of cops, walk toward ladies every day. Those same millions of men live to make it home that night.
Nice try tho.
You do nothing. He attacks her and does her harm. You failed. Come on...seriously...he's not responding when they call him...his intentions to her are unknown....They don't know anything about him or his state of mind. He could have been armed with a state of mind that would lead to him hurting someone. A rational person would respond to the police...you may not, but then that is the wrong response. Their correct response was to take him to the ground, make the situation safe....I'm not arguing that it went bad (hockey fans will remember the Todd Bertuzzi punch to Steve Moore...he ended up with a broken neck...not intended, but eventually something bad will happen given enough punches)
The law requires you respond to lawful orders (all within the Constitution). Quit trying to ignore this fact. There are millions of people who are detained by police, who make it home safely....that's because they listen to the lawful orders.
He dies ? Cops don't know CPR, ? The medics were there pretty quick.
I think Tasers are definitely the way to go...when used properly. However, since 2001 more than 500 people have died in the US from Tasers...many more deaths than from being "taken down" manually. CPR is not a guarantee of resuscitation.
You, gave me a reality within which to work. I did. I kept my ego in check--formulated no maybe-no what if-no could be--no perhaps.
Now you complain about it? You don't get to have it both ways. It either happens a certain way or it does not.
Perhaps you missed my point. The what-ifs are what are required to go through a police officers mind. Their training is there to account for ALL what-ifs. I didn't want you to analyze each one...they are ultimately irrelevant...the big picture is a lack of knowledge of the situation and the requirement to make a situation safe for everyone...including the man. This isn't fly-by-night training. This is based on years of research and experience across North America. He needed to be detained (not arrested) until all information could be ascertained. If he wasn't a risk at that point, then he walks away. ....yes...an accident happened and he died...that part sucks. But it wasn't intentional, and given the same scenario a hundred more times, unlikely it would happen again.
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? The medics were there pretty quick.
