Let's see: Coal = dirty. Oil = dirty. Nuclear = meltdowns and waste. Solar = panels take up too much room. Hydro = kills off land and animals when dams are built. LPG = fraking "causes earthquakes." Wind = kills endangered birds flying too close, visually polluting, and noisy. Every time an energy source is pursued, someone raises a stink about it and tries to/ends up shutting it down. I'd say we could go back to living in caves. But if we do that, we'd have to build fires to cook our food and that's not allowed anymore because it pollutes the air and we can't kill animals for food anymore because, well, killing Bambi for your own survival is just wrong. Is there anything left that everyone agrees on at all? Or are we, because of our quest for being perfectly PC, condemning ourselves to our own extinction?
Tidal currents have always spiked my curiosity. Timely event moving billions of pounds naturally.
At least I never had to light a whale oil lamp. We do need to advance a bit more as a species.
there is a concept being studied To use under water type windmills to used ocean current to turn the turbines in them But... than you have fis and dolphins swimming into them and boats floating over them, to me Hydro electric is the cleanest and most safe, Its more or less a one time construction that produces no waste and it works very well
Hydro-electric damming has caused all kinds of habitat loss, personal property loss in millions of acres, cost billions of $$ to build, and take years to complete (and that is after environmental impact studies and public hearings are concluded) They are extremely in-tolerant to drought issues.
Solar thermal (in desert like areas, and ya'll have plenty of those) and geo-thermal. Both basically running turbines off steam. Isn't much habitat to kill off in a desert, and mirrors don't pollute nor cost as much per watt as a solar panel.
Hydroelectric also saves, and provides, property due to flood control, provides irrigation, and recreational opportunities. Of all of the current sources, it provides more benefits besides power production, is the lowest maintenance and most visually pleasing, besides being non polluting. Perhaps there is a way to increase the efficiency of the turbines to produce more power per gallon of water flow?
To me, tidal generation could be the way of the future. Better have the transmission lines well insulated!
Guiding controlled matter/antimatter reactions will provide the power needed for cities and to fling us across the galaxy! Then all will be peaceful on the Earth, and we can reach out and meet our galactic neighbors....
I live about 6 miles from the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel. The current around those 15 miles of pilings is fierce.
I've often though it would be a great place for tidal generators as much of the infrastructure is in place. Not sure what it would do to the fishing though.
OTOH, they can get away with turbines in the East River because they're ain't much fishing going on there.
Solar thermal (in desert like areas, and ya'll have plenty of those) and geo-thermal. Both basically running turbines off steam. Isn't much habitat to kill off in a desert, and mirrors don't pollute nor cost as much per watt as a solar panel.
You wouldn't think that putting a solar farm in the middle of the desert would be a big deal, but...
Originally posted by whadeduck: Is there anything left that everyone agrees on at all? Or are we, because of our quest for being perfectly PC, condemning ourselves to our own extinction?
Sh!t I hope so, that will teach us a lesson,
the water power is actually able to use on a small scale without destroying animal habitat if you just want power for yourself or a few people, you really don't need to build a dam. I have a brook out back that runs threw the middle of our property that I could easily put a small hydro generator in and not need a dam just check them out, many people live off grid with them, some are as simple as a car blower fan set above the water with belts going down to the squirrel cage fan in the water flow.
(I have solar panels on my roof...... didn't really notice them taking up any room.)
I was about to post this.
quote
Originally posted by whadeduck: I was thinking on a bigger scale. The solar farms.
IMO, the problem is not with the generation, its with the concept the centralized power source feeding the whole grid. Now, understand that I'm talking about rural and suburban areas here, I know this wouldn't work well in cities where one tall building shades another but - If every suburban house had panels like Ryan's, the grid would be... maybe not entirely unnecessary, but would certainly be much smaller and needed much less.
You see this a lot here in Southeastern Arizona. Many, MANY roofs in the city are covered in panels, and many rural houses are entirely off-grid.
[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 04-13-2014).]
The tortoise issue is a HUGE factor with the energy companies out here. I have had to go through "tortoise training" just to be able to walk in a field that is SUSPECTED to contain a tortoise. If a construction crew is working in the desert and a tortoise seeks shade under their backhoe and goes to sleep, the crew stops the entire operation and waits until it wakes up and moves.....and yes this could take a day or more. Also, they are not allowed to touch or move the backhoe away from the tortoise. When it finally moves and decides to rest in another location on the jobsite, they have to build a fence around it to protect it. These actions cost a LOT of time and money for the crews but the state requires it.
The tortoise issue is a HUGE factor with the energy companies out here. I have had to go through "tortoise training" just to be able to walk in a field that is SUSPECTED to contain a tortoise. If a construction crew is working in the desert and a tortoise seeks shade under their backhoe and goes to sleep, the crew stops the entire operation and waits until it wakes up and moves.....and yes this could take a day or more. Also, they are not allowed to touch or move the backhoe away from the tortoise. When it finally moves and decides to rest in another location on the jobsite, they have to build a fence around it to protect it. These actions cost a LOT of time and money for the crews but the state requires it.
That makes no sense, wouldn't it be simpler to just hire a guy to hold an umbrella over the turtle while he sleeps? Then you can move the tractor.
The tortoise issue is a HUGE factor with the energy companies out here. I have had to go through "tortoise training" just to be able to walk in a field that is SUSPECTED to contain a tortoise. If a construction crew is working in the desert and a tortoise seeks shade under their backhoe and goes to sleep, the crew stops the entire operation and waits until it wakes up and moves.....and yes this could take a day or more. Also, they are not allowed to touch or move the backhoe away from the tortoise. When it finally moves and decides to rest in another location on the jobsite, they have to build a fence around it to protect it. These actions cost a LOT of time and money for the crews but the state requires it.
Turtle soup...tortoise soup...they probably cook up just the same...
That makes no sense, wouldn't it be simpler to just hire a guy to hold an umbrella over the turtle while he sleeps? Then you can move the tractor.
Brad
The scary part is that your solution would cost maybe $10.00 per hour to hire some laborer as opposed to losing thousands of dollars per hour from a complete jobsite shutdown but here in California, nothing makes sense.
Unless there's a tortoise inspector lurking ( granted that's not far fetched these days ) couldn't you just MOVE the little fella?
Funny you ask. They fly in Biologists from around the U.S to supervise each jobsite. They actually stand around wih a clipboard all day and make sure that the wildlife is not disturbed. Basically it's the "you are in THEIR habitat, they are not in your's" theory.
why couldn't we do a coop type thing, something similar to what the electric companies do now, if you generate more power than you need the others on your private grid could use your extra power and so on and so forth threw the neighborhood. while it would only work on a smaller scale it would work if all the people in a close proximity to each other had solar panels on their roofs. it would work better in areas like Arizona or the south but up here in the northern parts of the country that gets snow would have problems and larger city type places with skyscrapers could never do that, there would never be enough roof space. it would work in some areas. but then again the electric companies would need their cut as well. you can be sure of that, as well as the government. that's the problem, the government and electric conglomerates would still want money.
The tortoise issue is a HUGE factor with the energy companies out here. I have had to go through "tortoise training" just to be able to walk in a field that is SUSPECTED to contain a tortoise. If a construction crew is working in the desert and a tortoise seeks shade under their backhoe and goes to sleep, the crew stops the entire operation and waits until it wakes up and moves.....and yes this could take a day or more. Also, they are not allowed to touch or move the backhoe away from the tortoise. When it finally moves and decides to rest in another location on the jobsite, they have to build a fence around it to protect it. These actions cost a LOT of time and money for the crews but the state requires it.
Your crew needs to read the guide lines for handling desert tortoises. It should not stop progress. Maybe it is a good excuse for a break.
B. IN THE FIELD While monitoring construction, you will observe tortoises either aboveground or in burrows. When aboveground, tortoises should only be moved if in harm's way. If not, do not handle them, but monitor them to ensure that they are not adversely affected by construction. Depending on the circumstances, tortoises that are beneath machinery, in trenches or pipes, under pallets, or anywhere within the right-of-way may be in danger and need to be moved. If they must be moved, use the appropriate recommendations in these Guidelines to ensure safe handling.
The U.S. Bureau of Land Management announced it will kill hundreds of threatened desert tortoises it's been caring for at a Nevada conservation facility. The slaughter is being blamed on a lack of funds by the agency.
Real estate developers in southern Nevada who wanted to disrupt the habitat of threatened desert tortoises to build their little enclaves of air conditioning and irrigation in the arid suburbs of Las Vegas have been able to do so -- for a fee. And while at the height of the real estate boom those fees went a long way toward providing refuge for displaced tortoises, the real estate bust has seen the program implode.
From the Washington Post:
Federal funds are running out at the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center and officials plan to close the site and euthanize hundreds of the tortoises they’ve been caring for since the animals were added to the endangered species list in 1990.
“It’s the lesser of two evils, but it’s still evil,” said U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service desert tortoise recovery coordinator Roy Averill-Murray during a visit to the soon-to-be-shuttered reserve at the southern edge of the Las Vegas Valley last week.
The tortoises aren't bringing in the money in fees anymore, and without that money, there's no funds to protect them anymore. Even endangered tortoises have to pay protection money to the government or face the consequences.
Several years ago a big box store (Wal*Mart) wanted to build in St. George, Utah. First thing they did was to fence the construction site and certify that there were no desert tortoises present. Guards monitored the site to make sure no one brought in turtles. There was much opposition to the store being built and the presence of one desert tortoise might delay or destroy the construction plan.
Id say Geo-thermal is the safest and least damaging. Arent most places in Iceland heated with free Geo-thermal energy ? The only problem is naturally, they arent everywhere you need them.
Assuming 'Electrical Power' is the topic (different
Tidal generators, and types that attempt to capture the flow of water: In order for this type to be effective, you have to go fairly large scale. Sounds nice in theory, but sea water isn't an exactly friendly environment to mostly everything. Secondarily, what about the potential to disrupt currents? Windmills kill birds, underwater windmills would kill whales - or implode on impact. But at least the currents are fairly constant, which is a very big net positive for them.
Solar: Unless/until the technology improves, the amount of land mass needed to power a city would quickly show the impracticality. Secondarily, it takes an environmentally Unfriendly process to build the things. What's the ACTUAL amount of energy needed to build a solar array, vs the time it takes for that solar array to offset its own costs? Next, not all areas are suitable for solar. Then there's the problem of the fluctuation of the power source, so you either have to build battery storage at massive expense, or ALSO back it up with a more traditional production source.
Wind: Expensive, ugly, low frequency sound problems, environmental problems, expensive (yes, said it twice), lethal to some birds. On going maintenance issues.
Hydro: Aside from the obvious need for large pooling of water, I still like hydro. It tends to be 'stable', and can be done on both small and large scales. Hey, before electricity, hydro was used for pretty much everything that needed reliable power (water wheels). The EPA and state DEP's have a field day with it, though, and largely in their quest to preserve a (fill in the blank animal/rodent/reptile), stop most projects.
Coal/fossil fuels: Reliable power, but obviously with the downsides of pollution problems (even though they are much better than they used to be).
Nuclear: Very reliable power output in a small package. Downsides include nuclear waste, and when things go south, they have the potential to REALLY go south!
For -current- technology, I still like nuclear more than any other. Newer reactors generate far less waste, and are much less likely to go 'China Syndrome'.
Of other types? Roger mentioned Geo-thermal generation. Still pretty new, and there's concerns with the escaping steam being fairly toxic. The EPA is starting to look at 'thermal pollution', so I'm -sure- they will find something to give fines on. Plus the obvious endangerment to some species somewhere
For large installations, thermo-solar mitigates some of the problems of the electricity generating photocells that most of us associate with "solar". I don't know for sure, but I would guess that the mirrors that are used to concentrate the sun's light are manufactured by a more environmentally friendly process, using fewer toxic materials, than typical electricity generating photocells. And instead of batteries, surplus power can be stored as heat energy, using molten salt reservoirs.
Here's one that hasn't been tried yet, on any practical scale, but I like the idea, and it has the potential to eliminate the bird-kills and land use problems of ground-sited wind turbines:
Electrical power generation from high altitude winds:
Id say Geo-thermal is the safest and least damaging. Arent most places in Iceland heated with free Geo-thermal energy ? The only problem is naturally, they arent everywhere you need them.
I'm with you, so far on the list I view Geothermal as the least damaging. That still doesn't mean there is no controversy in using it.
Here are the problems I see.
Oil/Natural Gas/Coal: Toxic, byproduct is dirty air.
Solar: Building the cells is toxic, and they take up a lot of room.
Nuclear: By product is radioactive waste.
Hydro Electric (dams): Loss of land (upstream) and fish kills.
Wind: Kills birds. Noisy, and Takes up a lot of space.
Geothermal: Drilling deep underground, may create temperature pollution underground if used a lot.
Tidal Generators: Interesting, but damaging to fish, and apparently dead people in certain areas.
I don't see a problem with any on the list but the first group (fossil fuels), but has anyone tried placing the desert turtle on a treadmill and using it to make power?
Is there anything left that everyone agrees on at all? Or are we, because of our quest for being perfectly PC, condemning ourselves to our own extinction?
We do need to advance a bit more as a species.
