If someone can post in a PFF forum they can research Jesus as much as they want. Before the internet I can understand how people could have an unrealistic understanding of NT historicity. Much of the scholarly work (from both believers and non-believers) was difficult to access without going into university libraries or buying books and reading them. We were still limited to what we were told.
Today 95% of that work over the last 300 years is available for free with some simple searches. We can educate ourselves with very little effort if we will just read. Many scholars on both sides have YouTube videos you can watch and get into the details. We can learn more than we might want to know. We can cross-reference and see both sides of the argument and then make an informed decision.
But if one lacks the intellectual curiosity to at least be informed, nothing posted on an off-topic forum is going to change that. People can shoot down others views, insult, quote scripture, appeal to our fears and slam someone with fact after fact after fact and nothing will change unless they want to be better informed. And we have to separate theology/philo-theology from historicity. They are two totally different aspects.
But there is no way to escape one fact - what we were told isn't what is written and what was written isn't always presented to us accurately. If someone doesn't understand why that is true, they've avoided learning. Regardless of what side you are on, the facts about the NT are fascinating on many levels.
I completely agree but - do you have a position on the topic at hand (the birth/life/death of Jesus being history's most recorded event)?
In its day the life of Jesus Christ was one of the most recorded events even today it is more well known than 9/11 which most people will forget ..I am surprised how many Americans just no longer care about 9/11 Bagdad daddy the leader of the new Al Qaeda has not forgotten he is a ream mean POS hopefully Syria assad soldiers will blow his brains out OH happy day the Syrian regime has leap to the front as the good guys among the ORC,s of Syria we can only hope they keep murdering & killing each other there are no real good men here just Islamic killers pray for a real gas attack among this scum bagdag daddy is coming mean sucker
I completely agree but - do you have a position on the topic at hand (the birth/life/death of Jesus being history's most recorded event)?
It's in no way the most recorded event. There are no eyewitness accounts we can even remotely claim are contemporary. It might be the most talked about but it's certainly at the bottom of the list of the "most recorded." And if someone doesn't understand why that is then they haven't bothered to research the NT and learn more about it (that's not directed at anyone in particular.) Regardless of one's stance it's fascinating.
And yes, I am a naturalist and agnostic atheist if I need to be assigned a category and label.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 04-23-2014).]
Ergo, any event from that long ago (including anything to do with the central wordly figure of all Christian denominations) cannot be the "most recorded event in history".
Because any such event clearly predates all modern and widely used methods of recording.
QED.
The most widely recounted, but not the most recorded. Not even close.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-23-2014).]
The original meaning of my post was the time period when Jesus was crucified,there were thousands of eye witness ,hundreds of men at the time,recorded the events leading to the death of Jesus , My post was not about the past 300 years.. however thinking about this, the most momentus event in the history of the world,, more has been written & recorded about Jesus than any other event in history..The civil war ,WW2 & 9/11 do not come close ! only the ignorant think only Christians speak of Jesus, thier frozen thought process & atheist mind means they must strike out & hate,no one has done more to destroyed America than the atheist. Starting with the hate of the ACLU,created to fight Christianity & hate Christians .. It took celebrities ,movie stars to really get the atheist thing moving Most atheist have forgotten 9/11..it is impossible not to think about Jesus
for God so love the world he gave his only son he will return, think about it
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 04-24-2014).]
It took celebrities ,movie stars to really get the atheist thing moving
No, it took and takes people who think for themselves. It's only relatively recently that atheists can proclaim themselves so without fear of being ostracized or even killed (by the good religious people and I'm not talking just Christians here).
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Originally posted by uhlanstan:he will return, think about it
Religious folks have predicted the return of Jesus pretty much all the time since his death. Hasn't happened. Also, credible evidence is against people coming back from the dead. Personally, I'm open to evidence to the contrary and if Jesus came back tomorrow and it's confirmed it's really him, I'll say "There he is, I was wrong. Hallelujah!".
The original meaning of my post was the time period when Jesus was crucified,there were thousands of eye witness (WERE TOLD),hundreds of men at the time (WERE TOLD),recorded (WATCHED) the events leading to the death of Jesus , My post was not about the past 300 years.. however thinking about this, the most momentus event in the history of the world,, more has been written (YES) & recorded (NO)about Jesus than any other event in history...
Do you know of many 2000 year old events that have contemporary eyewitness accounts?
Sure, tons of Roman, Greek and Jewish writings were written by eyewitnesses. They were there, they saw it and wrote about it and much further back than 2000 years. Are they telling the truth? Who knows but there is enough cross-references to be able to confirm that some of it was written by eyewitnesses. It's that cross-referencing AND consistency in the reporting that is important.
I understand that the fact we don't have eyewitnesses doesn't mean that it didn't happen. But there were people there that would have taken a very strong interest in these events if they had occurred exactly as they are written in the synoptics. Jesus just wasn't on anyone's radar that was right there when it was all supposedly going down. No doubt there are probably a lot of documents lost to time but the synoptics don't paint a coherent or consistent picture of the events. Anyone that has read them in parallel understands that. Anything written after 120CE is just hearsay. At that point anyone that could have possibly been an eyewitness has died (and I think even that is a generous date.) Paul openly admits that he got his knowledge only from visions and he was writing 10-20 years before Mark was written. Paul in his 4 authenticated letters says little about an earthly Jesus and when he had a chance to learn something from Peter he didn't feel compelled to pass any of it on (or even ask?). Maybe we will discover a letter that does but at this point, most of what we are finding is post 120CE.
We aren't told any of this in church. As some say, teach the controversy.
As I've said before, I don't desire or expect anyone to believe anything in particular but I do take exception to unfounded claims. What I do want is for people to have a good life using whatever methods and tools they think helps. Enjoy - it's a beautiful ride.
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Originally posted by yellowstone:
I create you an honorary Imbecile, then, before someone beats me to it!
Sorry, I have already been designated the forum drug addict by RickAddy in both written and spoken word.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 04-24-2014).]
what I wrote is all true of course all the celebrity worshiper are against any hint that Christians are correct is fought by our mass media ! the big Atheist of our time was madelyn pos O,hair an ugly POS hosebag who repelled new atheist ,forunately when this hosebag went to retrieve the loot & gold she had scammed & stolen from atheist .. another atheist in a typical atheist plot killed her & her defender ,lower than slime,skang boyfriend,,Then playboy magazine up the anti & there were suddenly a lot of beautiful people celebrity type,s championing Atheism. Easier to beleave in nothing, than deal with complex thought If you have a lot of atheist friends your chances of being ripped off, scammed or robbed goes WAY UP,,imagine having a lot of friends like bit.. atah & ImbecileYellowstone??rumagging thru your ladies undie drawer..
Christ has risen & the ignorant know this ,it was recorded.. ..friday a billion people will mention Jesus Christ & every Atheist toasterhead that reads this will think of his saviour!! I am not a chaplain ,but the ignorant need to have Christ placed in thier minds ,one day some fear will cure them,, saw it when the mortars rounds drop thick as hail & unwelcome numerous armed visitors with fire works invited themself into our military hole in the ground..I love the smell of multiple claymores spraying steel balls every where ,,awakening the morning into marxist atheistbudda,s out for there morning Dawn run into a bloody wall of happyface steel 30.cal ,7.62 & 81 mortars
the only good marxist is a dead marxist
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 04-24-2014).]
Christ has risen & the ignorant know this ,it was recorded friday a billion people will mention Jesus Christ & every Atheist toasterhead that reads this will think of his saviour!! I am not a chaplain ,but the ignorant need to have Christ placed in thier minds ,one day some fear will cure them,, saw it when the motars rounds drop thick as hail & unwelcome numerous visitors with fire works invited themself into our military hole in the ground..I love the smell of multible claymores spraying steel balls every where
Easier to beleave in nothing, than deal with complex thought If you have a lot of atheist friends your chances of being ripped off, scammed or robbed goes WAY UP,,imagine having a lot of friends like bit.. atah & ImbecileYellowstone??rumagging thru your ladies undie drawer..
Owwwww, it hurts, make it stop!
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 04-25-2014).]
what I wrote is all true of course all the celebrity worshiper are against any hint that Christians are correct is fought by our mass media ! the big Atheist of our time was madelyn pos O,hair an ugly POS hosebag who repelled new atheist ,forunately when this hosebag went to retrieve the loot & gold she had scammed & stolen from atheist .. another atheist in a typical atheist plot killed her & her defender ,lower than slime,skang boyfriend,,Then playboy magazine up the anti & there were suddenly a lot of beautiful people celebrity type,s championing Atheism. Easier to beleave in nothing, than deal with complex thought If you have a lot of atheist friends your chances of being ripped off, scammed or robbed goes WAY UP,,imagine having a lot of friends like bit.. atah & ImbecileYellowstone??rumagging thru your ladies undie drawer..
Christ has risen & the ignorant know this ,it was recorded.. ..friday a billion people will mention Jesus Christ & every Atheist toasterhead that reads this will think of his saviour!! I am not a chaplain ,but the ignorant need to have Christ placed in thier minds ,one day some fear will cure them,, saw it when the mortars rounds drop thick as hail & unwelcome numerous armed visitors with fire works invited themself into our military hole in the ground..I love the smell of multiple claymores spraying steel balls every where ,,awakening the morning into marxist atheistbudda,s out for there morning Dawn run into a bloody wall of happyface steel 30.cal ,7.62 & 81 mortars
the only good marxist is a dead marxist
Question. Which particular denomination of Christianity is the correct one?
The Wiccan Sabbat of Spring Equinox is known in some traditions as either Ostara or Eostre. The Sabbat name “Ostara” comes from a German goddess of spring, fertility, and rebirth. The name “Eostre” comes from an Anglo-Saxon goddess with the similar attributes. The symbols that most Westerns have come to associate with Easter, that is the rabbit and Easter eggs, were originally symbols of the goddess Ostara. A rabbit is said to have been Ostara’s companion, and helped her to bring spring to the world. As for the eggs, one of the many interpretations of their significance is that they represent the World Egg from which everything began. In Ukrainian culture there are special Easter eggs known as pysanky. These eggs celebrate the rebirth of the Sun, as the days will now become longer then the nights, and the coming of the season of plenty. Pysanky, for all their pagan symbolism, were accepted by the Church when the Ukraine converted to Christianity in 988 BCE, perhaps as an attempt to make the change more palitable to the populous. (Pysanky are quite easy to find in my neighbourhood, as it has a very large Eastern European population.)
In Wiccan terms, the egg is full of strong symbolism. The yellow yolk of the egg represents the Sun God, while the white of the egg represents the Maiden Goddess. Together, with the shell, the egg represents rebirth and creation. It is interesting to note that left to their own devices, hens produce eggs only when they receive 12 or more hours of sunlight a day–Spring Equinox is when the time of day and night are equal, producing ever lengthening days of more then 12 hours.
The Sabbat itself is a celebration to honour the maturing God, and the mating of the Lord and Lady, or the Hieros Gamos. He is seen as the young God and she as the Maiden. It is also a time when Wiccans celebrate the beginning of spring. Here, in South Western Ontario, it is also a time to celebrate the end (we hope!) of the cold winter weather, and the ability to be able to actually go outside without freezing. In a sense, we are celebrating the resurrection of Nature, even though the God was reborn at the Winter Solstice. Perhaps it has taken the Lord and Lady this long to actually thaw out!
As mentioned above, Hieros Gamos, or Sacred Marriage, takes place during this Sabbat (and/or during Beltane, depending on one’s tradition). Some consider Jesus’ Crucification to be a form of this, but rather than mating with woman, he descends into Hell and is resurrected. It seems a tenuous link, but there may be some merit to the connection, since it is believed that in some cases the Hieros Gamos was actually a sacrificial mating, where the male would eventually be killed in order to ensure the fertility of the fields. Jesus, of course, as trying to ensure the fertility of our souls.
“ I cannot understand why we idle discussing religion. If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination. It is quite understandable why primitive people, who were so much more exposed to the overpowering forces of nature than we are today, should have personified these forces in fear and trembling. But nowadays, when we understand so many natural processes, we have no need for such solutions. I can't for the life of me see how the postulate of an Almighty God helps us in any way. What I do see is that this assumption leads to such unproductive questions as why God allows so much misery and injustice, the exploitation of the poor by the rich and all the other horrors He might have prevented. If religion is still being taught, it is by no means because its ideas still convince us, but simply because some of us want to keep the lower classes quiet. Quiet people are much easier to govern than clamorous and dissatisfied ones. They are also much easier to exploit. Religion is a kind of opium that allows a nation to lull itself into wishful dreams and so forget the injustices that are being perpetrated against the people. Hence the close alliance between those two great political forces, the State and the Church. Both need the illusion that a kindly God rewards—in heaven if not on earth—all those who have not risen up against injustice, who have done their duty quietly and uncomplainingly. That is precisely why the honest assertion that God is a mere product of the human imagination is branded as the worst of all mortal sins." Paul Dirac
I create you an honorary Imbecile, then, before someone beats me to it!
I'm president emeritus of the "I've Been Called a Smartass by Fierobear" club. Does that qualify me for honorary imbecile status? Is there a secret handshake?
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-25-2014).]
“ I cannot understand why we idle discussing religion. If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination. It is quite understandable why primitive people, who were so much more exposed to the overpowering forces of nature than we are today, should have personified these forces in fear and trembling. But nowadays, when we understand so many natural processes, we have no need for such solutions. I can't for the life of me see how the postulate of an Almighty God helps us in any way. What I do see is that this assumption leads to such unproductive questions as why God allows so much misery and injustice, the exploitation of the poor by the rich and all the other horrors He might have prevented. If religion is still being taught, it is by no means because its ideas still convince us, but simply because some of us want to keep the lower classes quiet. Quiet people are much easier to govern than clamorous and dissatisfied ones. They are also much easier to exploit. Religion is a kind of opium that allows a nation to lull itself into wishful dreams and so forget the injustices that are being perpetrated against the people. Hence the close alliance between those two great political forces, the State and the Church. Both need the illusion that a kindly God rewards—in heaven if not on earth—all those who have not risen up against injustice, who have done their duty quietly and uncomplainingly. That is precisely why the honest assertion that God is a mere product of the human imagination is branded as the worst of all mortal sins." Paul Dirac
I usually don't understand your outpourings (in style and substance) any more than I get Uhlanstan's but this quote is
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 04-25-2014).]
I'm president emeritus of the "I've Been Called a Smartass by Fierobear" club. Does that qualify me for honorary imbecile status? Is there a secret handshake?
No, Marvin, but there is a very attractive certificate of membership, suitable for framing. calligraphy and everything.
[This message has been edited by heybjorn (edited 04-25-2014).]
That was awesomely funny! The fact that these articles were actually meant to be serious makes them all the more hilarious! Can you say illogical conclusions?
Just one great soundbite:
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When it comes to Jesus, one finds a very curious thing about Him—He claimed to be God in the flesh. Jesus own words (e.g., “Before Abraham was born I AM”), His actions (e.g., forgiving sins, accepting worship), His sinless and miraculous life (which He used to prove His truth claims over opposing claims), and His resurrection all support His claims to be God. The New Testament writers affirm this fact over and over again in their writings.
Now, if Jesus is God, then what He says must be true. And if Jesus said that the Bible is inerrant and true in everything it says (which He did), this must mean that the Bible is true in what it proclaims. As we have already learned, two competing truth claims cannot both be right. So anything in the Islamic Koran or writings of Judaism that contradict the Bible cannot be true. In fact, both Islam and Judaism fail since they both say that Jesus is not God incarnate, while the evidence says otherwise.
They actually used the word "evidence". ROFLMAO, again!
I'm president emeritus of the "I've Been Called a Smartass by Fierobear" club. Does that qualify me for honorary imbecile status? Is there a secret handshake?
No, it's just you kneeling and me solemnly proclaiming: "Thou art now a member of the Imbeciles Of Pennocks, as founded by the incomparable Uhlanstan through His glorious and/or malicious misunderstanding of the sage Yellowstone's writings."
You may now rise.
Membership is non-exclusive, you can be whatever you like besides an Imbecile Of Pennocks.
No, it's just you kneeling and me solemnly proclaiming: "Thou art now a member of the Imbeciles Of Pennocks, as founded by the incomparable Uhlanstan through His glorious and/or malicious misunderstanding of the sage Yellowstone's writings."
You may now rise.
Membership is non-exclusive, you can be whatever you like besides an Imbecile Of Pennocks.
If in doubt, resort to name calling. As a backup you can post links without answering the questions yourself.
nowadays, when we understand so many natural processes, we have no need for such solutions. I can't for the life of me see how the postulate of an Almighty God helps us in any way.
What I do see is that this assumption leads to such unproductive questions as why God allows so much misery and injustice, the exploitation of the poor by the rich and all the other horrors He might have prevented.
So what we think we need or want today determines what truth is, and what actually is and was?
Why God allows misery and injustice? Why do we allow it, if we are all there is? Why God allows it was answered a few times in previous threads.
Originally posted by 2.5: So what we think we need or want today determines what truth is, and what actually is and was? Why [does] God allow misery and injustice? Why do we allow it, if we are all that there is?
Why God allows that was answered a few times in previous threads.
Not presenting myself as supporting any adherence to faith (or the opposite), but 2.5 is arguing these points here with skill and insight, in terms of logic and presentation. He's looking very well grounded in the fundamentals and definitely at ease here "at the plate", and not at all mindlessly dogmatic. He's brought his A-game today.
Will he be able to stand up at this same high level when he comes up again in the 7th or 8th..?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-25-2014).]
I can't speak for the material of his links, since I didn't go there. I was only referring to his summary statement, as I just quoted him. Just those few sentences from him.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-25-2014).]
