I try to adopt new technology when it is cost efficent. In 2009 I switch my house to CFL's with the promise of lasting forever and using a fraction of the power. Over the past year I started replacing the CFL's that never lived up to their billing with LEDs. In October I redid my kitchen totally and only used LED's as replacement. Over the past 24 hours two of the LED's have essentially died and only product about half the light.
WTF these LED's had a billig much like CFL's and don't appear to be lasting any better! Maybe it is time to switch back to regular bulbs again.
I dunno, I had one place where I re-did the whole place in CFL's from the buck store and it had a VERY noticeable affect on my power bill, and as they were buck-store items I didnt worry too much if one went out (I think it was 2 or 3 in the year and 1/2 I was there.
LED bubls, I have one and like the light--but it DOES get warm (NOT "stay cool" as advertised) and for $12 it was more of an experiment to try them than anything else---but for the low power use once they hit the buck stores and are $1-$2 items I'd do an entire place in them and gamble that the power savings will out-weigh the replacement costs.
More "Gub ber ment" bs. They did all they could to get the lead out of house paint and now they're doing all they can to replace it with mercury in the light bulbs. And of course its only a tiny amount they say, times?????????
I say go back to regular bulbs. Rough service type if necessary.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
I have been buying LED bulbs for a while trying to find some that work well. Most are from China or Hong Kong. Most were screw in bulbs and a lot of them failed after several months. Most have failed because of a bad power supply.
In the last few weeks I have founds something completely new in the LED lights. They are LED panel lights and are very nice since you don't just see a bright spot, the whole panel is lit up. Most that I saw on EBay were meant to go into recesses with spring clips to hold them in-place. I bought a few from EBay and found that they stay cool and give off quite a bit of light.
I am now in the process of importing some from China directly from reputable companies with actual warrantees. I and a couple of other people are developing a new generation of lights for shops and for large office buildings. They are much more efficient that even the newest fluorescent lights and have many other benefits too. Hopefully in the future I will be able to supply some of the large companies in my area and across the US with these new light fixtures using these flat panel LEDs.
From contacting these suppliers directly I have also found some of the flat panel lights that are already designed to replace lights in a house. Most light fixtures just screw down to the junction box and have sockets to screw the light bulbs into. But these you take the old fixture off and screw down the framework to the ceiling hook up the two power wires to the power supply plug the cord of the power supply into the light panel and screw it down to the frame work. Easy as all get out. The ones I just got in yesterday were 18 watt flat panel round lights about 10 inches in diameter and maybe 2 inches thick overall. This light replaced a two bulb fixture with 2, 24 watt fluorescent twisty bulbs in it and it is brighter. Also, I have been buying only 6000 to 6500K panels since I light the bright white lights.
We also experimented with some of the square LED panels put into a piece of aluminum that will drop into a 4 x 2 foot ceiling panel. Two 18 watt LED panels replace at least 2, 32 watt fluorescent tubes. There are also some flat panels I have seen that are about 2 ft x 2 ft and 4 ft x 2 ft. But, I have not checked them out yet.
So a lot of the concerns with the earlier LED bulbs are being solved and a new generation of LED lights is on the way.
I have been buying LED bulbs for a while trying to find some that work well. Most are from China or Hong Kong. Most were screw in bulbs and a lot of them failed after several months. Most have failed because of a bad power supply.
In the last few weeks I have founds something completely new in the LED lights. They are LED panel lights and are very nice since you don't just see a bright spot, the whole panel is lit up. Most that I saw on EBay were meant to go into recesses with spring clips to hold them in-place. I bought a few from EBay and found that they stay cool and give off quite a bit of light.
I am now in the process of importing some from China directly from reputable companies with actual warrantees. I and a couple of other people are developing a new generation of lights for shops and for large office buildings. They are much more efficient that even the newest fluorescent lights and have many other benefits too. Hopefully in the future I will be able to supply some of the large companies in my area and across the US with these new light fixtures using these flat panel LEDs.
From contacting these suppliers directly I have also found some of the flat panel lights that are already designed to replace lights in a house. Most light fixtures just screw down to the junction box and have sockets to screw the light bulbs into. But these you take the old fixture off and screw down the framework to the ceiling hook up the two power wires to the power supply plug the cord of the power supply into the light panel and screw it down to the frame work. Easy as all get out. The ones I just got in yesterday were 18 watt flat panel round lights about 10 inches in diameter and maybe 2 inches thick overall. This light replaced a two bulb fixture with 2, 24 watt fluorescent twisty bulbs in it and it is brighter. Also, I have been buying only 6000 to 6500K panels since I light the bright white lights.
We also experimented with some of the square LED panels put into a piece of aluminum that will drop into a 4 x 2 foot ceiling panel. Two 18 watt LED panels replace at least 2, 32 watt fluorescent tubes. There are also some flat panels I have seen that are about 2 ft x 2 ft and 4 ft x 2 ft. But, I have not checked them out yet.
So a lot of the concerns with the earlier LED bulbs are being solved and a new generation of LED lights is on the way.
We've purchased a number of LED bulbs as well. They don't seem to last all that much longer than their old school cousins... or at least not as long as advertised.
[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 05-13-2014).]
I work in a warehouse and we just went though replacing all our lights with LED from sodium vapor. From my expierence these LEDs do generate heat ~150 deg F vs 400 deg F + for the sodium lights. The sodium lighs were from when the muilding was constructed in the 80s and arly 90s.
We went with second generation lights from China from a name brand company with warranty. To date they are great. I am just disappointed with the lights in my house. I would recommend avioding screw in LED buld from "lights of america." These particular bulbs I got form Wally world; I just installed a lights of america hard wired fixture in my bathroom purchased from Costco in my bathroom two months ago.
I have had LED bulbs in an outside torchlight for two years with no problem. They are Feet brand from Costco and hooked to a dusk to dwan sensor.
I have a Cree brand bulb but have yet to use it. I got it from Home Depot.
Overall I'll try to keep my LED expierence up to date with brands, generations of bulbs and retailers to aviod or to purchase. As of now I'll say that LED's are not the magic bullet.
On January 1, 2014, in keeping with a law passed by Congress in 2007, the old familiar tungsten-filament 40- and 60-watt incandescent light bulbs can no longer be manufactured in the U.S., because they don’t meet federal energy-efficiency standards.
It’s the last part of a gradual phase-out that began in 2012 with 100-watt bulbs, and progressed last year with discontinuation of the 75-watt variety.
I bought the 10 ft strip type and with a bunch of soldering I replaced three fluorescent fixtures in my motorhome with leds. The blown ballasts would have cost me $90 and I only spent $11 on the leds. They are brighter and I could have replaced more fixtures with the $11 strip by putting less leds in each fixture. Been in for almost a year now with no failures.
I have LEDs in my living room in the 2700K color range. Both work well so far. Anything at 3000K and up is not suitable for a living space IMHO. Outside as security lights or in the garage as work lights are best for me.
I had horrible luck with the CFLs. Poor light quality and quantity IMO, and they lasted no longer than the incandescent bulbs they replaced. Some did not last as long.
I have tried only 2 LED fixtures and are pretty happy with them. Both, are outside flood lights. One strictly solar powered and the other is mounted to my shop and is 110 vac powered. I bought them both the same day, installed both the next day and they have worked flawlessly ever since. As you can see by the time stamp on my night fishing light, they are now a year old.
I don't have a picture, but the one on my shop is this one:
Many times LED isn't real problem... LED and often PSU won't take surges etc. Cars, Homes, etc power is often full of noise, Surges, and when use w/o surge protection means LEDs will quickly die.
Many "White" LED are Blue/UV LED and "White" phosphorus. Cheap ones can wear out the phosphorus. this example show how it works on a bigger scale. Small white LEDs have phosphorus built into the LED. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4ZBfmLGRrk
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
The "why" doesn't really matter. The thing people see, is that the new "smart" (and quite expensive) bulbs doesn't give as good service as what has been available for 100 years.
Kinda hard to crow about energy savings when one has to change the dang things (CFLs) as often or more often than incandescents. If there wasn't a problem with surges when the old style bulbs were burning brightly, then the customer has every expectation of there not being a problem with what the isdustry and govt shoved down the public's throats as the incandescent's direct replacement. The customer did HIS part--he bought the thing.
EVERYTHING else is on the manufacturer, industry, and the morons in govt that thought these were a great idea.
I tried one of those motion detector type lights. When it came on at nite, it wasnt much brighter than a lighter and didnt lite anything...I returned it. As far as replacing bulbs at home, I have quite a few outside flood lites that are on all around the house at nite. I replaced one to see how it did @ $15 each. It lasted less than 2 weeks. They replaced it and it did the same thing. I put back the $4 old style. They need replaced every 2-4 years. I bought a bunch and put them in the closet so I have enough when the government bans them too.
Sure you'll save power and money for a while, until the power company starts to lose money and decides they need to up the cost of electricity increase admin fees.
I have had very few issues with CFLs and I am looking forward to LEDs. I have had more issues with standard bulbs burning out, than with CFLs. I have purchased my CFLs at Home Depot, for the most part.
I'm certain CFL life ISN'T what manufacturers claim it to be. The longevity claims of CFL's or LED's are no different than just about every other advertising claim.
I have had several CFL's fail. The majority of failures have been with CFL's installed base up. I've had very few CFL failures when they are installed and used for maximum life.
The utility companies in my area subsidize the cost of CFL's. I can purchase CFL's for the same price or less than incandescents. The kill-o-watt meter proves that I can substantially save a buck by using CFL's.
I still use incandescents in low use fixtures where I want instant bright light such as hallways, foyer, & outdoors.
I have purchased a few low power LED bulbs, but the difference in electricity savings between CFL's & LED's isn't much.
I can put up with the negatives of CFL's when the cost to purchase them and operate them saves me money.
When we renovated our house, I used CFL's in every fixture. Many have been in place for years. Many failed within weeks. The difference is which ones are short use (flip light on, grab something, flip light off) versus the ones that are left on for much of the evening. CFL's don't like power cycles.
I have a couple of LED based lights. One dusk-to-dawn on my garage, and that has been going strong for 3+ years. One more in my kitchen, which is fairly new and replaced a CFL that always seems to die prematurely. The dusk-to-dawn is a commercial fixture, the one in the kitchen is from Lowes. We'll see how long it lasts.
Tungsten filament bulbs produce heat, but are otherwise cheap and relatively non-toxic to produce. CFL's and LED's produce less heat, but have toxic materials, more expensive, more 'waste' when they are discarded. Oh, and they aren't made in the USA, either.
So, if we examine the 'intent' of what the government did, vs. the end result, I somehow don't think it was worth it. The government started with a laudable goal: Reduce energy usage of lighting. Fair enough. Putting aside the fact that the Federal government has no Constitutional jurisdiction in this area, let's look at the end result: U.S. based light manufacturers were quite literally forced out of business here, and we now get most of our light bulbs from China. Any positive (environmentally) from the reduced energy usage is more than offset by the environmentally damaging manufacturing process, and then again by the disposal of CFL's which contain trace amounts of mercury. Because -most- people just throw the things in the trash, and don't take them to a proper recycling center, we now have more toxic waste in landfills, not less. Some municipalities are considering legislating disposal requirements for the things. So even more government control.
CFL light quality depends on the manufacturer, i've found that the weak link is the electronic ballast, they don't last that many on-off cycles before the bulb burns out. Likewise, the electronics don't usually respond well to very moist environments, like a bathroom. They also have a warm up time. All this means is that CFLs are good for constant-on applications that aren't wet or moist, and they are really, really good for this and will save a lot of energy.
I've also found that CFLs are a lot more durable for drop lights than regular incandescents and can survive a lot more indirect impact, the incandescent filaments break very easily incomparison.
I have my living room lit with LEDs now (American-made CREE bulbs, $9.99 from home depot) and I use about 1/10 the power that I did before, and it looks just as good. Not sure how people could complain about using an AMERICAN product that saves a ton of energy. Let's face it, using 100 watts for a light bulb is completely absurd and a huge waste of resources.
Originally posted by dsnover: Tungsten filament bulbs produce heat, but are otherwise cheap and relatively non-toxic to produce. CFL's and LED's produce less heat, but have toxic materials, more expensive, more 'waste' when they are discarded. Oh, and they aren't made in the USA, either.
So, if we examine the 'intent' of what the government did, vs. the end result, I somehow don't think it was worth it. The government started with a laudable goal: Reduce energy usage of lighting. Fair enough. Putting aside the fact that the Federal government has no Constitutional jurisdiction in this area, let's look at the end result: U.S. based light manufacturers were quite literally forced out of business here, and we now get most of our light bulbs from China.
The only US-made incandescent bulb is Sylvania's. All other incandescents were already made in China.
There are multiple US-based manufacturers of LEDs (Lights America and CREE come to mind).
quote
Any positive (environmentally) from the reduced energy usage is more than offset by the environmentally damaging manufacturing process, and then again by the disposal of CFL's which contain trace amounts of mercury.
Based on what?
LEDs don't have mercury. They do have some integrated circuits but they aren't any more environmentally unfriendly than any other small electronic device.
CFL light quality depends on the manufacturer, i've found that the weak link is the electronic ballast, they don't last that many on-off cycles before the bulb burns out. Likewise, the electronics don't usually respond well to very moist environments, like a bathroom. They also have a warm up time. All this means is that CFLs are good for constant-on applications that aren't wet or moist, and they are really, really good for this and will save a lot of energy.
I've also found that CFLs are a lot more durable for drop lights than regular incandescents and can survive a lot more indirect impact, the incandescent filaments break very easily incomparison.
I have my living room lit with LEDs now (American-made CREE bulbs, $9.99 from home depot) and I use about 1/10 the power that I did before, and it looks just as good. Not sure how people could complain about using an AMERICAN product that saves a ton of energy. Let's face it, using 100 watts for a light bulb is completely absurd and a huge waste of resources.
When I did my place in CFL's, I looked at it as resource management/ budgeting. If I have a $150/mo (just random numbers) electricity budget to use and lighting eats up $40 of that, reducing the lighting portion to $10 frees up $30 I can use to run the welders and power tools.
I actually bought a CFL trouble light at a big car show where they demonstrated how good they were by dropping it while it was on. I bit and took one. When I used it the next day for the first time it came on for 5 minutes, flickered and went out...never came back on. Yes I throw all my trash in one dumpster that I pay for. If I 'properly' disposed of everything...lights, batteries, paper, plastic, bottles, etc, Id have a row of trash bins as big as the house. Let my trash company figure it out, im not.
About all the lights I use are the shop lights if im working on something and the outdoor floods on all nite. Im not big on a brite house...usually all thats on are a few nite lights and the TV screen. My electric bill when Im not using electric heat in winter, is usually around $50 @ month. So even If I saved 20%, it would be a whopping $10 off...not worth investing $1000 in new light bulbs.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 05-14-2014).]
My electric bill when Im not using electric heat in winter, is usually around $50 @ month. So even If I saved 20%, it would be a whopping $10 off...not worth investing $1000 in new light bulbs.
If you only leave on a "few lights" then you could replace those few with LEDs and leave the rest alone.
You were saying in another thread how high electricity rates are where you live. Even in NC where electricity is relatively cheap, LEDs or CFLs quickly pay for themselves (as in less than 1 or 2 years, depending on how much you use it). I would imagine that your payback period would be less than a year even for a LED.
I have some CREE LED lights I'm really happy with. They are an american company and the LEDs and I think even the housings are made in the US. One of there facilities is in near me in North Carolina. As far as I know you can only get them from Home Depot.
I skipped the CFLs and just started grading to LEDs. The trigger for me was that I bought some 60w incandescent that lasted a matter of weeks to months. Just for info, DON'T buy any bulbs marked "Made in Hungary"! I can stilt buy all the incandescent I want, but they're getting harder to find. The wife was terrified of mercury, so CFL's weren't an option. The one I tried in my office was slow to light up, anyway.
My first LED was "daylight" which seemed kind of bluish. I then tried some Cree "warm white" bulbs, from Home Depot, which looked just like incandescent. I'm stealthily replacing them around the house, and will see if anyone notices. I'll report any failures, hoping I don't have them at ten bucks a bulb.
If you only leave on a "few lights" then you could replace those few with LEDs and leave the rest alone.
You were saying in another thread how high electricity rates are where you live. Even in NC where electricity is relatively cheap, LEDs or CFLs quickly pay for themselves (as in less than 1 or 2 years, depending on how much you use it). I would imagine that your payback period would be less than a year even for a LED.
If you live where hitting the top $.32/kWH tier only requires pugging in a cell phone charger and your wife loves lights, the LEDs have proven to be very cost effective. I've dropped my $130 bill to $100 by going with LEDs alone. That's a payback of about a year. If your power costs are low like in Washington state they might not payback in a reasonable amount of time.
Now if they would only come up with an LED AC unit!
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 05-14-2014).]
Wow, $0.32/KWH! I thought we were bad at $0.13/KWH. I believe that it is a lot cheaper is you are on Tennessee Valley Authority power, since it is basically government subsidized.
With the cost of housing very high and obviously the cost of energy so high, it is no wonder California is losing people very fast.
I have one LED bulb so far, I use it in the trouble light in the garage. Its a bunch of SMD's in a "corn cob" design. 1. I can drop it and it keeps on ticking as opposed to incandescent filaments. 2. It doesnt get hot either, no melted carpet, burned skin or smoldering cardboard
Looks something like this:
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-14-2014).]
I used CFL's in every fixture. Many have been in place for years. Many failed within weeks. The difference is which ones are short use (flip light on, grab something, flip light off) versus the ones that are left on for much of the evening. CFL's don't like power cycles.
That's an important consideration. I use 13w CFL units in a couple of outside doorway fixtures that are on 24/7. When they start to lose a bit of their quality of light (brightness, "white"ness) after a couple of years, I replace them. Saves a lot of money compared to incandescent bulbs burning 24/7.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-14-2014).]
I try to adopt new technology when it is cost efficent. In 2009 I switch my house to CFL's with the promise of lasting forever and using a fraction of the power. Over the past year I started replacing the CFL's that never lived up to their billing with LEDs. In October I redid my kitchen totally and only used LED's as replacement. Over the past 24 hours two of the LED's have essentially died and only product about half the light.
WTF these LED's had a billig much like CFL's and don't appear to be lasting any better! Maybe it is time to switch back to regular bulbs again.
Look, you know I'm not all about government intrusion and overreach, but I can add some light (hah, pun) to this...
I replaced all the bulbs in my home with CFLs back in... I dunno... 2005 I guess? I paid a good sum of money for this, but I did notice an enormous difference in power for two reasons: first, they use significantly less power, and second, they give off maybe... 10% of the heat that normal incandescant bulbs give off. In my family room alone, I had 10 bulbs (recessed lighting) that were 90 watt incandescant floods. I replaced them with four 13watt bulbs, and six 11 watt bulbs. (I put the 13 watt ones in the corners to project more light). The "lumens" in the room was the same, if not better, but the TEMPERATURE in the room was night and day difference... maybe 10-15 degrees cooler than it normally was. In the summer, I couldn't get that room cool, even with a 4.5 ton A/C handler / unit for my single-story, 2,650 square foot home. After the CFLs... the temperature was significantly, SIGNIFICANTLY better.
Now, here's the problem... they did not last anywhere NEAR as long as they were supposed to. I was replacing many of the CFL bulbs at LEAST as often (if not more so) than I would replace the cheap incandescants.
So I've switched to LED now... and I'm more happy than I was before. Whether you realize it or not... you've already been living with LEDs... just not as your primary light source. The lights on your remotes, the lights on your stereo / tv equipment... the light on your monitor that tells you the power is on... the light that indicates above your caps lock or scroll lock... those are all LEDs. Have you ever had one burn out? Truth is... they DO burn out, but it's extremely rare. The ONLY LED that I've ever had burn out, was an LED on an old Sony HiFi Stereo that I kept in the garage. It was already 25+ years old... I remember my parents bought it new (with the record player) back in 1984. And the LED failed maybe 6 years ago... so do the math on that.
The LED lights you buy for your home will last that long.
Couple of negatives though... the DIMMABLE LEDs have some sort of transformer in them, so they DO actually get hot. Not as much as incandescants, but they do still radiate heat (they just don't project it), so you will see some temperature increases that way. There are also several different kinds of lighting emanations from LEDs, so you have to properly pick the color you want (otherwise you won't be happy). If you're replacing LEDs after only a week, they are either absolute crap the likes that no one here has ever seen... (I'm shocked really) or there's some major electrical issue that's causing a spike when you turn them on and it's blowing them out (or the electronics).
I've never replaced an LED, but I've been using LEDs for a year now... and four months now in my home with them all replaced. You want to make sure though that you get the right ones... SPOT LEDs will project a fine beam... which looks cool, but fails horribly at lighting up a room. You want a FLOOD LED, that will "flood" the room with lighting.
FYI, this is a SPOT LED:
And this is a FLOOD LED:
Unfortunately, many of the retailers / cheap places that sell them... sort of interchange the terms, but there really is a difference. The top one will broadcast a focused narrow beam on the floor, while floods will broadcast the light everywhere.
Oh, I also wanted to add that I've come to the conclusion that women don't know how to turn off lights. Please feel free to call me sexist or bigotted, that's cool. I just know that they walk into rooms and turn on every damned light, and then never turn them off. So... as a solution, I started adding motion switches, or timer switches. I have a timer switch that allows you to select 60 minutes, 45minutes, 30 minutes, 10 minutes, etc... I put this in all the bathrooms, and all the closets.
If you only leave on a "few lights" then you could replace those few with LEDs and leave the rest alone.
You were saying in another thread how high electricity rates are where you live. Even in NC where electricity is relatively cheap, LEDs or CFLs quickly pay for themselves (as in less than 1 or 2 years, depending on how much you use it). I would imagine that your payback period would be less than a year even for a LED.
Why would I want to replace the bulbs I have with ones that are 5 times or more as much when what I have work just fine. Even just one would be a waste of my money.
I dont recall ever saying my electric rates were high. Like I said, my bill is $50 @ month. I dont consider that high. Thats even with my RV plugged in and my 220 air compressor. Maybe in one of the electric car threads I said it would be expensive to keep charging it and you misunderstood...one reason I wont buy one...gas is cheaper.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 05-14-2014).]
As a few others have said, the Cree "warm white" bulbs, from Home Depot have been great so far. I've put them in the fixtures that are commonly used with no problems.
The biggest reason for avoiding the CFLs was they were next to useless outside in the dead of winter. After that, inconsistent color depending on mfg.
Why would I want to replace the bulbs I have with ones that are 5 times or more as much when what I have work just fine. Even just one would be a waste of my money.
You pay more up front and pay less whenever you turn it on. Even here in NC where electricity is cheap, they save enough money over a couple years to pay for themselves.
quote
I dont recall ever saying my electric rates were high. Like I said, my bill is $50 @ month. I dont consider that high. Thats even with my RV plugged in and my 220 air compressor. Maybe in one of the electric car threads I said it would be expensive to keep charging it and you misunderstood...one reason I wont buy one...gas is cheaper.
The only way gas would be "cheaper" is if you had extremely expensive electricity - like, $0.80-$1.00 per kwh expensive, which is about 3 times higher than the most expensive place in the US. But yes, the electric car threads are where I remember you saying that. Just curious, what is the kwh rate where you live?
The dealer told me it costs about $3 to recharge a Volt. I get 30+ miles per gallon in my gas car at $3.40 avg a gallon. A volt realisticly gets about 35 miles per charge, then it goes on gasoline just like my car. For the driving I do now, Im way ahead of the game with my gas car. The $30K I pay for the Volt plus the $4K estimate for the charger install will buy my gas for the rest of my life. Ive went all over this same thing 1/2 dozen times before. An electric car (other than a Tesla) makes absolutely no sense to my driving situation. Im driving my gas car for free, as compared to an electric one. I have no clue what my electric rate is. Its a tiny part of my budget that I pay absolutely no attention to. I spend more on snacks a month than I do electric.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 05-15-2014).]
