“We’ll find the right mixture of technology to deliver mileage and [carbon dioxide] reductions. We’re much better at this than you are, I hate to tell you this,” he told an Energy Department employee who asked a question from the audience.
“I’ll make the car. I’ll make it available, which is my requirement, but I will sell the [minimum] of what I need to sell and not one more,” Marchionne said of the 500e. “If we just build [electric] vehicles, we’ll be back in…Washington asking for a second bailout because we’ll be bankrupt by Christmas.”
................. When asked about the government’s handling of the auto bailouts, Marchionne suggested Chrysler and GM were not treated equally. Rattner, who was also present at the conference on Wednesday, said the government wanted to avoid giving Chrysler more than the minimum needed to succeed.
“If I had to come up with a system, I would have put both in the same structure. That would have forced them both to earn their right to live because the leash on the other side is incredibly long,” Marchionne said, referring to GM. “We had to prove our right to exist. The other guy who got the injection was guaranteed survival.”
I think he kind of hit the nail on the head, related to Government really messing things up.
Also believe Federally driven requirements have also unreasonably jacked up the Automotive Car Prices so that they are becoming more, and more unattainable by the average person. The money that could be saved by reducing Automotive Crash Requirements alone, would have a huge impact in cost reduction of the Automobile, and also make the Automotive Manufacturers more profitable (meaning more jobs, higher pay, better for economy). The real focus should be placed on making people better drivers, which would cost next to nothing in comparison. That's just one area item of Government envelopment in Automotive, they are plenty more.
Tongue and cheek: If the similar type of Crash Protection was mandated to the Airlines, we wouldn't be flying at all.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 05-26-2014).]
They want you to conserve electricity here in the summer months when everyone has the air conditioning on yet they (Democrats) want you to buy electric cars. If electric cars become mainstream where are they going to get the electricity from? Especially as they want renewable wind electricity which is way out in the desert and had to come a long way to the population centers and wind only produces a fraction of whats needed. Plus the turbine farms destroy the looks of the desert, and kill birds and turtles and other desert animals Democrats are always concerned about the environment except when it comes to wind turbines farms. How'ed you like to buy a 10 year old electric car?.
They want you to conserve electricity here in the summer months when everyone has the air conditioning on yet they (Democrats) want you to buy electric cars. If electric cars become mainstream where are they going to get the electricity from? Especially as they want renewable wind electricity which is way out in the desert and had to come a long way to the population centers and wind only produces a fraction of whats needed. Plus the turbine farms destroy the looks of the desert, and kill birds and turtles and other desert animals Democrats are always concerned about the environment except when it comes to wind turbines farms. How'ed you like to buy a 10 year old electric car?.
Originally posted by V8 Vega: They want you to conserve electricity here in the summer months when everyone has the air conditioning on yet they (Democrats) want you to buy electric cars. If electric cars become mainstream where are they going to get the electricity from? Especially as they want renewable wind electricity which is way out in the desert and had to come a long way to the population centers and wind only produces a fraction of whats needed. Plus the turbine farms destroy the looks of the desert, and kill birds and turtles and other desert animals Democrats are always concerned about the environment except when it comes to wind turbines farms. How'ed you like to buy a 10 year old electric car?
Electrical generation capacity would have to be increased, and the power grid would have to be improved and expanded. That, however, could be accomplished in step with the ramp-up of electric road vehicles, which are currently just a very small percentage of the vehicles on the road. Even if all of the additional electricity were generated by natural gas, which is a fossil fuel, the net CO2 emissions from road traffic would be reduced.
It's not a scam. It needs to be pursued, along with other ways to reduce CO2 emissions and reduce the overall dependence on fossil fuels---including significantly more efficient gasoline and diesel road vehicle engines. At the present time, there is room for forwards movement on both of these tracks, in parallel.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 05-26-2014).]
Until they find better ways to store energy than current battery tech, the electric car's carbon lifecycle is going to be worse than an efficient gas model. Battery construction (including the mining of raw materials) adds a lot of pollution to the mix. Then there's disposal/recycling of the batteries at end of life.
We'll get there, but electric cars today are still a higher cost and higher pollution alternative to efficient gas or diesel cars if you include all emissions from cradle to grave.
Originally posted by rinselberg: It's not a scam. It needs to be pursued, along with other ways to reduce CO2 emissions and reduce the overall dependence on fossil fuels ...
It is a scam. The results were pre-concluded and achieved with faulty data collections. There is proof of conspiratorial e-mails. None of the predictions, not one have come true, . If it were true, it has been argued that it would be cheaper to deal with it. What's wrong with dependence on fossil fuels. The only fault I find is that it supports middle east and other despots.
Until they find better ways to store energy than current battery tech, the electric car's carbon lifecycle is going to be worse than an efficient gas model. Battery construction (including the mining of raw materials) adds a lot of pollution to the mix. Then there's disposal/recycling of the batteries at end of life.
We'll get there, but electric cars today are still a higher cost and higher pollution alternative to efficient gas or diesel cars if you include all emissions from cradle to grave.
/\ This. Hybrids are still among the most polluting vehicles sold when cradle to grave emissions are considered. Pure electrics are not far behind. I have been extensively trained in the function, diagnosis and repair of vehicles such as the Prius and other hybrids. I have said many times that if the OEMs put as much "green" technology into an average gasoline car as they do into a hybrid or EV (and I'm not talking about the electric motor part, I mean the gas engine, aerodynamics, etc), gas powered cars would be much more efficient than they are. With ever tightening CAFE standards though, it is beginning to happen.
To me, it looks like electric cars WERE a passing fad for the Greenies. I never see ads for them on tv, and not many on the street. Ive seen 2 Volts since they came out. Like pointed out above, what good are they if you dont have electric...like say after a disaster like a hurricane or tornado. I never bought into anything about them everyone was yelling hurrah about. I wouldnt give you $100 for a used 10 year old one in mint condition...even to just use for running closeby errands. When the battery croaks your screwed.
It's not a scam. It needs to be pursued, along with other ways to reduce CO2 emissions and reduce the overall dependence on fossil fuels---including significantly more efficient gasoline and diesel road vehicle engines. At the present time, there is room for forwards movement on both of these tracks, in parallel.
You forgot to include it's for the children and if we don't do something now, east coast cities will be under water soon. Which, BTW, has been changed from in a just a few years because no cities are going under water. From rising oceans, anyway; mortgages are a different story, and a different topic.
Originally posted by heybjorn: You forgot to include it's for the children and if we don't do something now, east coast cities will be under water soon. Which, BTW, has been changed from in a just a few years because no cities are going under water. From rising oceans, anyway; mortgages are a different story, and a different topic.
I was trying to say that the concept of electric road vehicles is not a scam.
Is it ready for prime time, all across the country? Not yet. But the post that I was responding to seemed to be rejecting the possibility out of hand: Not now, not ever.
As far as the scenario where the vehicles cannot be recharged because of a widespread grid collapse or failures at major generating facilities... I dunno. You can't pump gasoline without electricity, either. Sure, it needs to be anticipated and worked out in advance, but maybe it's workable.
Get away from batteries and go to fuel cells. You refill a Hydrogen tank much the same way you do a gas tank, just with a special nozzle. It would be similar to adding diesel to existing gas stations when diesel cars first started appearing. The infrastructure is already in place.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-26-2014).]
Yup I'm going out and buying me a new steam car. Like it or not electrics are coming. And not all bad, check the performance specs on the Tesla. If your that concerned about the power to recharge, re-roof you house with solar shingles. Think of the power that could be generated if all roofs were solar cells, and all the wasted space in the highway medians were set-up with solar. The old coal fired power plants could then be used to generate hydrogen from water with the excess electricity to be used in fuel cells at night. Been done for years in other countries. Best of all is that it could be done here in the US without having to import anything.
Get away from batteries and go to fuel cells. You refill a Hydrogen tank much the same way you do a gas tank, just with a special nozzle. It would be similar to adding diesel to existing gas stations when diesel cars first started appearing. The infrastructure is already in place.
Exactly. Hydrogen is the way. Honda is on to something with the FCX Clarity. GM was onto something with the Hy-Wire.
Yup I'm going out and buying me a new steam car. Like it or not electrics are coming. And not all bad, check the performance specs on the Tesla. If your that concerned about the power to recharge, re-roof you house with solar shingles. Think of the power that could be generated if all roofs were solar cells, and all the wasted space in the highway medians were set-up with solar. The old coal fired power plants could then be used to generate hydrogen from water with the excess electricity to be used in fuel cells at night. Been done for years in other countries. Best of all is that it could be done here in the US without having to import anything.
I have more than 25 years of experience in power generation of all types and you appear to be ignoring a few things such as O&M and the environmental effects of solar generation. Someone has to take care of the solar cells and that is not easy with a wide distribution of cells as you propose. BTW, the highway medians are controlled by governmental departments and power generation is normally provided by private corporate groups. When have you ever known the government to run things in an efficient and timely manner? Guess what would likely happen (increased cost, added capital cost for many transmission lines and substations, and more personnel for the tax payers to support) if a government agency was to run this enterprise.
To replace a smaller 600 MW electrical generation plant would require around 4000 acres of solar cells. This affects local wildlife and animals in a negative way if you destroy their habitat. Solar cells also loose efficiency when dirty or when they age. There are also major issues associate with storage of power in batteries for electrical supply when the sun is not shining (clouds and night). Solar power currently requires a major capital expenditure and/or governmental subsidies and is not readily available in many areas due to prevailing climatic conditions. Solar power has its place in the energy mix but is not the ultimate solution.
The use of excess electrical power to produce hydrogen is possible but would result in additional CO 2 emissions from the power plants (unless hydro or nuclear) and require capital expenditures for additional power plant space/personnel for the needed equipment and storage of hydrogen in a high pressure environment. Then you need to transport the hydrogen via truck (more potential pollution/CO 2 emissions) or pipelines (additional risk of an explosive leak when mixed with air).
I do not have your source for the claim that your scenario would reduce CO 2 emissions and would like to know what it is so that I can see if it is a potentially valid solution. If it is a viable source that considers all the know issues I would be happy to agree with you on this scenario.
There is no need to transport hydrogen, it's stored on site. Making Hydrogen from water is simple, stick 2 electrodes in a glass of water and hook up a battery, the bubbles you see forming are hydrogen and oxygen, no co2. run through a fuel cell produces electricity and water, no co2.
There is no need to transport hydrogen, it's stored on site. Making Hydrogen from water is simple, stick 2 electrodes in a glass of water and hook up a battery, the bubbles you see forming are hydrogen and oxygen, no co2. run through a fuel cell produces electricity and water, no co2.
Fantasy check:
Energy in any form will have to be transported and stored where it is needed or consumed..
Saying making hydrogen is simple...
Well other than being extremely explosive,makes extreme amounts of heat,have to be precisely regulated with correct voltage and amps,precise PH levels maintained with absurd amounts of pressure created....Then the collection of the "bubbles" .....Which then has to be separated into there primary elements,Hydrogen and Oxygen...Then separately stored and commpresed...
Ooh and lest we forget that batt aint gonna charge itself..And if you think the solar cells are gonna be suffeciant to supply the Amps and constant voltage,than write a paper and become the next Billionare...
The materials that are used to create all the parts of this "simple" process ,plastics,metals ,rubbers,:ETC...Have to be mined and refined in a constant supply..
Energy sources that are created and used at the same site won't need to be transported. Consumers and Dow are now doing that here. How many square feet of roofs are there in this country? The technology has been available for years to be energy independent, but as long as big money runs the country we will never see it. Since the public is the one getting shafted. Sure hydrogen is explosive, but so is gas.
To me, it looks like electric cars WERE a passing fad for the Greenies. I never see ads for them on tv, and not many on the street. Ive seen 2 Volts since they came out. Like pointed out above, what good are they if you dont have electric...like say after a disaster like a hurricane or tornado. I never bought into anything about them everyone was yelling hurrah about. I wouldnt give you $100 for a used 10 year old one in mint condition...even to just use for running closeby errands. When the battery croaks your screwed.
Hmmm.... the Volt can run on gas... so if the electricity is not available, the car will still drive just fine.
I would certainly give someone $100 for a used 10 year old volt in mint condition. The battery may be at 80% capacity, but even if you had to spend $2K for a new battery (and yes the prices will drop, as we have seen in other hybrid battery packs... even Dorman is selling batteries for hybrids)... you have a nice car. No different than a replacement tranny or engine in a gas vehicle.
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 05-27-2014).]
They want you to conserve electricity here in the summer months when everyone has the air conditioning on yet they (Democrats) want you to buy electric cars. If electric cars become mainstream where are they going to get the electricity from? Especially as they want renewable wind electricity which is way out in the desert and had to come a long way to the population centers and wind only produces a fraction of whats needed. Plus the turbine farms destroy the looks of the desert, and kill birds and turtles and other desert animals Democrats are always concerned about the environment except when it comes to wind turbines farms. How'ed you like to buy a 10 year old electric car?.
Not that I am defending electric cars but that problem has already been resolved and would actually help the electrical grid.
The newer systems will charge the car during off peak hours when possible and during peak hours where the grid is struggling, your car will automatically "sell" power back to the grid through the integrated home charging station.
The concept is amazing but getting everyone on board is not easy.
Hmmm.... the Volt can run on gas... so if the electricity is not available, the car will still drive just fine.
I would certainly give someone $100 for a used 10 year old volt in mint condition. The battery may be at 80% capacity, but even if you had to spend $2K for a new battery (and yes the prices will drop, as we have seen in other hybrid battery packs... even Dorman is selling batteries for hybrids)... you have a nice car. No different than a replacement tranny or engine in a gas vehicle.
Why yes...it can. So its not really an 'electric' car then is it. It still will use gas and oil. That still dont affect why I dont see any of them.The only 'nice' electric cars, and they are totally electric are the Teslas. As for battery prices, no one can predict them. If they go as most things, yes they will come down. Maybe they will stay static. Maybe when it gets harder to produce them, they will go up. Im not a gambler. I know what gas prices are doing and its really not too hard to predict. I doubt if your ever able to buy a good used battery for a few hundred dollars like you can an engine or trans. Another point is a gas engine or a tranny usually give signs of failure long before they die. A battery can work perfect one minute and be dead the next without any kind of warning. A warning give you time to form a plan ahead of time. None leaves you at someones mercy. ie/ if an engine starts knocking...you know to start looking or saving up for a replacement.
Another point is a gas engine or a tranny usually give signs of failure long before they die. A battery can work perfect one minute and be dead the next without any kind of warning. A warning give you time to form a plan ahead of time. None leaves you at someones mercy. ie/ if an engine starts knocking...you know to start looking or saving up for a replacement.
Actually, unless there is a catastrophic failure (just like a combustion engine) the car's advanced charging and monitoring systems will notify you of potential failures and performance issues. Voltage, amperage, temperature and gassing of the batteries is monitored several times per second. If anything, you will get much more advanced warning than you would from an engine sound.
Ive never paid any attention to what kind of monitoring is in one of the cars. However I deal with a lot of lithium ion batteries. They frequently just die in a minute. Ive had them for example in my helicopter work fine for a bunch of flights, then refuse to retake a new charge. I follow all the instructions to let them cool down, not to run them completely out, etc. Same with power tools I have. It wont take a charge at all so you throw it away. Ive had it happen to almost brand new battery packs. They work just fine and give the correct run times and then they dont. I have one right now I used 1/2 dozen times that the charger refuses to recharge. Seconds after plugging it in, the error lite flashes. Same happened to 2 other packs. Only one battery out of 4 I bought at the same time will charge properly. I would charge them all up, use, replace it with another and so on...then take a break to recharge them all.
Ive never paid any attention to what kind of monitoring is in one of the cars. However I deal with a lot of lithium ion batteries. They frequently just die in a minute. Ive had them for example in my helicopter work fine for a bunch of flights, then refuse to retake a new charge. I follow all the instructions to let them cool down, not to run them completely out, etc. Same with power tools I have. It wont take a charge at all so you throw it away. Ive had it happen to almost brand new battery packs. They work just fine and give the correct run times and then they dont. I have one right now I used 1/2 dozen times that the charger refuses to recharge. Seconds after plugging it in, the error lite flashes. Same happened to 2 other packs. Only one battery out of 4 I bought at the same time will charge properly. I would charge them all up, use, replace it with another and so on...then take a break to recharge them all.
The battery packs in an EV have integrated electronics that monitor several perimeters of the battery while charging, at rest and in use. Unlike "dumb" cells that are only monitored while being charged by the charging system (found in tools, toys, etc.. )
Ive never paid any attention to what kind of monitoring is in one of the cars. However I deal with a lot of lithium ion batteries. They frequently just die in a minute. Ive had them for example in my helicopter work fine for a bunch of flights, then refuse to retake a new charge. I follow all the instructions to let them cool down, not to run them completely out, etc. Same with power tools I have. It wont take a charge at all so you throw it away. Ive had it happen to almost brand new battery packs. They work just fine and give the correct run times and then they dont. I have one right now I used 1/2 dozen times that the charger refuses to recharge. Seconds after plugging it in, the error lite flashes. Same happened to 2 other packs. Only one battery out of 4 I bought at the same time will charge properly. I would charge them all up, use, replace it with another and so on...then take a break to recharge them all.
You are comparing disposable toy batteries and electric/hybrid car batteries? You do know they are not the same, right?
Originally posted by rinselberg: I was trying to say that the concept of electric road vehicles is not a scam.
The false need/promotion/utility sacrifices are.
quote
Originally posted by tebailey: Yup I'm going out and buying me a new steam car. Like it or not electrics are coming. And not all bad, check the performance specs on the Tesla.
The government did not subsidize steam. Electric cars will come, when the consumer demands them. It should not be dependent on gooberment making the consequences of not having them unattractive.
Why yes...it can. So its not really an 'electric' car then is it. It still will use gas and oil. That still dont affect why I dont see any of them.The only 'nice' electric cars, and they are totally electric are the Teslas. As for battery prices, no one can predict them. If they go as most things, yes they will come down. Maybe they will stay static. Maybe when it gets harder to produce them, they will go up. Im not a gambler. I know what gas prices are doing and its really not too hard to predict. I doubt if your ever able to buy a good used battery for a few hundred dollars like you can an engine or trans. Another point is a gas engine or a tranny usually give signs of failure long before they die. A battery can work perfect one minute and be dead the next without any kind of warning. A warning give you time to form a plan ahead of time. None leaves you at someones mercy. ie/ if an engine starts knocking...you know to start looking or saving up for a replacement.
You are the one who brought up the Volt .... Also, here in my tiny town I have seen 3 of them. The local NAPA uses one for deliveries. What a great idea.
It is nice you can buy a used engine for a few hundred dollars... but with that you get a very limited warranty and it may not work after that warranty. So that argument is pretty weak, sorry. We are talking about a battery unit that can tell you more about it's condition than an IC engine could ever do. Plus, an engine can just die, so can a tranny... without any warning. It seems to me that if you look at the current crop of hybrids/electric cars, you will see very few failures of the type you described. The technology works and the IC engine will be replaced one day by another technology.
If the price of the volt was cheaper, I would have one. It is better than a Tesla or other pure electric car, for everyday use (not just to work and back).
The government did not subsidize steam. Electric cars will come, when the consumer demands them. It should not be dependent on gooberment making the consequences of not having them unattractive.
So, let's look at the oil industry.... if the government would stop subsiding that industry, maybe other technologies would be in demand.
Originally posted by jaskispyder: So, let's look at the oil industry.... if the government would stop subsiding that industry, maybe other technologies would be in demand.
[sarcasm] No ... an electric car will never be practical or economically viable. [/sarcasm]
There are no easy choices. What we need is not one solution for all of our energy needs, but 50 solutions, each of which satisfies 2% of our needs. There is no single silver bullet.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-27-2014).]
Originally posted by jaskispyder: Let's find out... cut the subsidies.
Your the one that says vote. I will cancel yours out. Unless you vote for no green subsidizes too. I don't think the ethonal people should be getting subsidizes either. I also do not think it is fair that GE had zero tax liabilities.
. If it were true, it has been argued that it would be cheaper to deal with it.
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