WAUKESHA, Wis. - Prosecutors say two 12-year-old southeastern Wisconsin girls stabbed their 12-year-old friend nearly to death in the woods to please a mythological creature they learned about online.
Both girls were charged as adults with first-degree attempted homicide Monday in Waukesha County Circuit Court; they each face up to 60 years in prison if convicted. A court commissioner set bail at $500,000 cash per child. According to a criminal complaint, the girls had been planning to kill their friend for months and finally made the attempt in a park on Saturday morning, after a slumber party.
One of the girls told a detective they were trying to become "proxies" of Slender Man, a mythological demon-like character they learned about on creepypasta.wikia.com, a website about horror stories and legends. They planned to run away to the demon's forest mansion after the slaying, the complaint said.
"I recognize their young ages but it's still unbelievable," Court Commissioner Thomas Pieper said during one of the girls' initial court appearances Monday.
The victim suffered 19 stab wounds; one missed a major artery near her heart by a millimeter, doctors told police. She was in stable condition Monday. The court documents did not provide her name.
The Associated Press isn't naming either girl who is charged because at least one of their attorneys plans to pursue moving her case into juvenile court, where proceedings are secret.
Both girls appeared in court wearing shackles and jail jumpsuits. They were surrounded by sheriff's baliffs, who towered over them. Family members of one of the girls wept openly as reporters snapped photographs. The other girl's family sat stone-faced.
According to the criminal complaint, one of the girls told an investigator they began planning to kill their friend in December. The other girl told police they decided to kill her so they could become proxies of Slender Man, who would accept them and let them live with him in his mansion in the Nicolet National Forest.
The other girl said she sees Slender Man in her dreams. She said he watches her and can read her mind and teleport.
"It's extremely disturbing as a parent and as chief of police," Waukesha Police Chief Russell Jack said at a news conference ahead of the court appearances Monday.
The girls invited their friend to a slumber party on Friday evening, the complaint said. They planned to kill her during the night so they wouldn't have to look into her eyes, one girl told police, and then run away. They decided to put it off, but the next day, during a hide-and-seek game in a wooded park, they attacked their friend with a knife. One girl told the other to "go ballistic, go crazy," according to the complaint.
The victim began to scream that she hated them and started stumbling away, one of the girls told police.
The girls left the victim lying in the woods. She crawled to a road where a bicyclist found her lying on the sidewalk. Police arrived and she gave them the name of one of the girls who attacked her.
She was rushed into surgery, police said.
One of the girl's attorneys, Donna Kuchler, asked Pieper to remove reporters from the courtroom because she planned to attempt to get her client waived into juvenile court. Pieper refused. Kuchler escorted the girl's family out of the courtroom, telling reporters only that the family was horrified at what happened.
The other girl's attorney, Joseph Smith Jr., led her family out of court. He declined to comment.
Both girls are due back in court on June 11 for a status conference.
I get that it's terrible, but both of these girls sound incredibly immature and unstable. I'd think juvenile court would be better for this than trying them as adults... they fell for an internet story--that's as childish as it gets.
These 12 year old girls cannot grasp reality. The prosecutors are put into a position to do the right thing. Unfortunately, I am thinking their minds see charging these two kids as adults as acceptable. Just putting things into perspective, but these girls cannot even legally have sex. They are considered children. But, our society will charge them as adults, many people will have their picture in the paper, and all families will be put through hell.
Just putting things into perspective, but these girls cannot even legally have sex.
No criticism of you, Tony, I know you are not saying it is, but when did the act of sex become a measure of adulthood, or worse, the ability to make decisions?
No criticism of you, Tony, I know you are not saying it is, but when did the act of sex become a measure of adulthood, or worse, the ability to make decisions?
I believe their ages should be taken heavily into account. While we see their actions as an adult crime, these children do not, cannot, and will not be able to understand the legal aspects of such a case.
I just see this as an opportunity for some to get their names in the papers. Sensationalizing a story is good for some. Not so much for others.
No, I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so I may not know what I say I know.
I believe their ages should be taken heavily into account. While we see their actions as an adult crime, these children do not, cannot, and will not be able to understand the legal aspects of such a case.
I just see this as an opportunity for some to get their names in the papers. Sensationalizing a story is good for some. Not so much for others.
No, I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so I may not know what I say I know.
The crime is so awful, but these really are just little kids.
They need to pay for taking the life of someone else, but should not be getting charged as adults. I don't think, at 12, most of us could fully understand the depth of the crime, and that's why we have different penalties for children and adults.
I just think there needs to be a clear, black and white line. There should be no question. IMO, 16+ tried as adults for most crimes, 18+ for cyber crimes, maybe a few others. Point is, wherever the line is, it should be there and not be able to be moved.
I all in for the girls tried as adults. Sorry, but if they go to juvie court, they just go to reform school till there 21 and set loose again. Theyre a menace whether they comprehend it at all or not. It should be a death penalty case as just about any other murder, attempted murder or kidnapping.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-03-2014).]
"I say let Judge Carrol make the call. (Walking Dead reference)"
Just have them look at the flowers.
Attempted murder is not a childish crime. These girls are old enough to know better than to believe in an internet fantasy and their actions prove it. Why didn't they run away to the forest mansion after committing the act. I bet they know such a place does not exist.
I all in for the girls tried as adults. Sorry, but if they go to juvie court, they just go to reform school till there 21 and set loose again. Theyre a menace whether they comprehend it at all or not. It should be a death penalty case as just about any other murder, attempted murder or kidnapping.
So what's the line though? What if they were 6? 3, and killed a cat? There needs to be a line.
One would think by twelve years of age you would know this was not one of the circumstances where it is appropriate to repeatedly stab somebody.
I am all in too with the try as an adult.
A three to six 6 year old was mentioned in a cat killing scenario, depend how and why they killed the cat, the six year old is sick and should be watched very closely, well of coarse if he wasn't shooting strays with his dad. Don't like that idea either but can see a reason for it.
We took our 14 year old son to the beach last week. The room had a land line phone in every room. We asked him if he knew how to use it. He said, "Dial 9?"
Kids today just don't know the things we did and they don't process things like we did at their age. I don't know if it is a matter of the majority of their experiences being "virtual" or not but I suspect it plays a roll.
Kids are too mature in some ways and so very immature in others. This would be an EXTREMELY difficult call to make and I'm thankful I'm not the one who has to do it.
[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 06-03-2014).]
One would think by twelve years of age you would know this was not one of the circumstances where it is appropriate to repeatedly stab somebody.
I am all in too with the try as an adult.
A three to six 6 year old was mentioned in a cat killing scenario, depend how and why they killed the cat, the six year old is sick and should be watched very closely, well of coarse if he wasn't shooting strays with his dad. Don't like that idea either but can see a reason for it.
I continue to have to wonder; Why do more kids kill each other (do they?) now then they ever did in history? Is it because in the past kids were witness to the killing, skinning, & butchering of animals continually in their everyday life. That they witnessed actual death so repeatedly that they naturally acquired a reverence for it's finality?
But then, what about the whole 'serial killers starting on small animals as kids' thing? Is it just that some are twisted, no matter how they get started? And now we just have more of them popping-up because they have even less of that experience of the everyday killing for survival kids had in the past?
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 06-03-2014).]
I continue to have to wonder; Why do more kids kill each other (do they?) now then they ever did in history? Is it because in the past kids were witness to the killing, skinning, & butchering of animals continually in their everyday life. That they witnessed actual death so repeatedly that they naturally acquired a reverence for it's finality?
But then, what about the whole 'serial killers starting on small animals as kids' thing? Is it just that some are twisted, no matter how they get started? And now we just have more of them popping-up because they have even less of that experience of the everyday killing for survival kids had in the past?
Yes, I often wonder if it is not just the information age. When I was a kid we had a few channels big three did local news at 6 and there was a spot for national but it seamed like they stuck with the big news, of national or world importance, mostly the war. Maybe they did report it and I just didn't listen.
I often say it and seams to always be worth a neg but I think there are just plain bad eggs out there and nothing can be done about it. Maybe more people, more eggs. Close to three times as many people in the country today compared to my childhood.
Or maybe it's as simple as kids back then knew that their life had very little value to their providers as they could not even pull their full load, not to mention more of them could be easily made. Knowing that this ruff life could take them at any moment, thereby instilling in them that death was nothing to play with.
Where as kids now-a-days feel they are shinning pillars of promise, to be catered to and elevated way above their actual performance in life...
I strongly question their supposed motive. If in fact they thought this sacrifice would work you have to ask why. Who led them to believe that.
But being 12 years old I think they should be tried and sentenced as juveniles. They can keep them for several years and figure out what drove them to this and how to undo it. Odds are they can be brought around to some reality. The courts will still have control until they do. Keeping them beyond 18 is unlikely to change anything. They will either get it and realize they were misled or if that's just a cover story hopefully they will be turned in their thinking.
So what's the line though? What if they were 6? 3, and killed a cat? There needs to be a line.
Simple line to me....to plan in advance and follow thru with the killing of any human being. Any age over being a child, like say over 8, and planning and carrying out the murder of another person and you should be at the very least committed to an institution for most, if not all your remaining life. A victim is just as dead from being shot or stabbed from a 10 yo as from a 30 year old. The murderers age didnt have any affect on them.
I strongly question their supposed motive. If in fact they thought this sacrifice would work you have to ask why. Who led them to believe that.
But being 12 years old I think they should be tried and sentenced as juveniles. They can keep them for several years and figure out what drove them to this and how to undo it. Odds are they can be brought around to some reality. The courts will still have control until they do. Keeping them beyond 18 is unlikely to change anything. They will either get it and realize they were misled or if that's just a cover story hopefully they will be turned in their thinking.
Or they will be free at 18 to plan and carry out ANOTHER premeditated MURDER, ok it was not a murder but ONLY because the victim lucked out by a mm. Yes it is a shame and a waste, can't and shouldn't save everybody.
I have never understood why somebody that tries to kill somebody gets a lessor sentence for their failure, they wanted, they tried, goodbye.
Ask yourself this.....would you ever feel like you or your family is safe with a kid in another room of your house that killed someone just for fun ? I wouldnt even if it was 10 years earlier and they had been in reform school / prison /jail / mental institution for it ?
Or they will be free at 18 to plan and carry out ANOTHER premeditated MURDER, ok it was not a murder but ONLY because the victim lucked out by a mm. Yes it is a shame and a waste, can't and shouldn't save everybody.
I have never understood why somebody that tries to kill somebody gets a lessor sentence for their failure, they wanted, they tried, goodbye.
I don't think we know enough right now to say. I agree that a release at 18 would require some extraordinary evidence they aren't going to do something evil. The fact that they thought their act would please some made up character like "Slender Man" is worrisome enough that 6 years probably isn't enough to ensure anything.
Attempted murder isn't murder so I see why the sentence is less but depending on the circumstances the courts can give out some hefty sentences. Based on sentence guide lines I think the lower end of murder crosses the upper end of attempted murder. I agree that intent and success shouldn't have the gap they do. I wouldn't want to hang out with these people. Again, I think their motive is an excuse and they are sick, sick, sick. Sick I tell you, sick.
We will have to see what the complete facts are first. First reports and rarely right.
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Now the defense is saying the girl who did this is mentally ill and if she is tried as an adult she won't get the help she needs. WTF
Sure she will - from the privacy of her own personal containment center. I still believe their motive is false and it was pure and simple retaliation for something. Scary. Not unheard of but scary.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 06-03-2014).]
While we see their actions as an adult crime, these children do not, cannot, and will not be able to understand the legal aspects of such a case.
I dunno, maybe, but i think even a 12 year old understands that if you murder someone and get caught your in for a world of trouble. So their total inability to understand the possible ramifications of their crime that they had been planning for months.. Not buying it..
And this whole "we did it to please slender man" sounds like a load of crap to me, not falling for it. If they where 7 or 8 year old kids, id agree, but a 12 year old knows the difference between right and wrong, i know i did at 12, im sure most of you did as well. Especially about something like murder!
Try them as adults, give them the proper sentence for the crime, let them sit in juve until they turn 18, then send them to prison for the rest.
Such a tough call. I know that my qualifications do not provide me with the legal advice needed in such a thread. But then again, this is the internets, so Bonjour!
My personal opinion on it, premeditation is a defining factor. If they in fact did plan this out, then they should be charged as adults. Murder in the "heat of the moment" such as a school fight between 2 boys over some suspected or actual slight where 1 ends up killing the other but didn't "plan" to kill him, I don't think should be charged as an adult (although that would assume they didn't go into it in the mindset of "I'm gonna kill that f***er!" with the plan to beat on them until they were dead). Little Jimmy is playing in Dads car and accidentally knocks the e-brake loose causing it to roll back over Joeys head killing him, not an adult charge. There was no premeditated intent here. So to me it's premeditation that should determine how one is charged.
We should either treat them as children or as adults, with a black and white line. I wouldn't care if they were tried as adults if every other 12 year old was tried as an adult as well.
I just don't like how someone can just make a decision that this deserves an adult sentence, while someone else could look at this and say it doesn't. And the law supports either decision.
INTENT is the key word for me. They planned to kill her, they executed their plan. To me attempted murder is a lessor charge if they threw a knife at her and injured her. They stabbed her 19 times...and so the obvious intent WAS to kill her. No one stabs someone 19 times just to show their pizzed off.
We should either treat them as children or as adults, with a black and white line. I wouldn't care if they were tried as adults if every other 12 year old was tried as an adult as well.
I just don't like how someone can just make a decision that this deserves an adult sentence, while someone else could look at this and say it doesn't. And the law supports either decision.
Welcome to America.
I just read a comedic take on this in reference to Slender Man. I am not impressed with our society. Our moral compass is not just broken, but shattered. Would the last one standing please turn out the lights.
We should either treat them as children or as adults, with a black and white line. I wouldn't care if they were tried as adults if every other 12 year old was tried as an adult as well.
I just don't like how someone can just make a decision that this deserves an adult sentence, while someone else could look at this and say it doesn't. And the law supports either decision.
So you're ok with "someone just making a decision" that this should be in juvie court but not if someone "just makes a decision" where it takes a path to adult court. We don't even have that sort of set-in-stone court protocol for stable minded people 21 and older, as there are always mitigating circumstances in any case,and the law recognizes this--for good reason. Even the sentencing phase of most cases allows the jury (or judge) to have great leeway in reducing (or even vacating) a state's mandatory sentencing guideline. A one-size-fits-all ruling in any case would be about as close to some of the under developed countries' courts as we could get, and there's been plenty of US outcry over what other nations do.
My personal opinion, is that because of the pre-medtation and planning, that they should be tried in adult court and if found guilty, sentenced under that state's juvenile guidelines. The only problem with being tried as adults comes from the "jury of their peers" part....
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-04-2014).]
My personal opinion, is that because of the pre-medtation and planning, that they should be tried in adult court and if found guilty, sentenced under that state's juvenile guidelines. The only problem with being tried as adults comes from the "jury of their peers" part....
Maybe I don't really understand juvenile court... isn't that pretty much what happens?
I didn't say I wanted black and white sentencing, but if you're going to have child rules at all, then they should apply equally across the board.
I think, that it is the justice system as a whole that you do not understand. You should be careful what you wish for. It is ALWAYS much more difficult to get a conviction and severe sentence from a jury trial than from a single judge trial--or a 3 panel judge trial that some states use in juvenile courts.
I dont care if shes mentally ill as an excuse. Then lock her up in an institution for 50 years. She cant ever be out on the street again. Murderers, rapists and molesters are never rehabilitatable from what Ive ever seen. What kind of therapy do you use to make a killer stop wanting to kill again if given the opportunity ?
I think, that it is the justice system as a whole that you do not understand. You should be careful what you wish for. It is ALWAYS much more difficult to get a conviction and severe sentence from a jury trial than from a single judge trial--or a 3 panel judge trial that some states use in juvenile courts.
Maybe true. I don't know much about the system besides the few times I've been involved in proceedings.
Originally posted by theBDub: article: The other girl said she sees Slender Man in her dreams. She said he watches her and can read her mind and teleport.
I might be the first one to say it, what are these kids being taught and not taught? Parents?
I get that it's terrible, but both of these girls sound incredibly immature and unstable. I'd think juvenile court would be better for this than trying them as adults... they fell for an internet story--that's as childish as it gets.
What do you think?
When Should a Trial Happen in Juvenile Court?
Perhaps it should begin in Juvee and progress to adult court (or adult punishment, MJ seems more familiar than I ) if deemed it should along the way? Or if deemed there is no remorse or understanding, etc. Also the punishment even for adults is not usually the maximum sentence, and may even end up being mental care.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 06-04-2014).]
Perhaps it shoudl begin in Juvee and progress to adult court if deemed it should along the way? Or if deemed there is no remorse or understanding, etc. Also the punishment even for adults is not usually the maximum sentence, and may even end up being mental care.
"The bad part of me wanted her to die, the good part of me wanted her to live," Weier told police. Geyser said they had to do it, or "he would kill our family." And although she acknowledged that what they did was "probably wrong," Geyser said, "It was weird that I didn't feel remorse."
Originally posted by maryjane: "The bad part of me wanted her to die, the good part of me wanted her to live," Weier told police. Geyser said they had to do it, or "he would kill our family." And although she acknowledged that what they did was "probably wrong," Geyser said, "It was weird that I didn't feel remorse."
From another article? I missed that in the posted link. Not good. Even as a kid I didnt have a bad part of me that wanted to see someone die. I wonder how common this is? Wanting to see pain or death. In all these wierd cases for me it sparks a desire to know what the kids life is like, what they were taught or not taught, I want to look for a cause in their environment.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 06-04-2014).]
