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The entitled rich... by dennis_6
Started on: 06-15-2014 03:10 AM
Replies: 12 (374 views)
Last post by: randye on 06-16-2014 05:54 PM
dennis_6
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Report this Post06-15-2014 03:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry if its been posted before....


Rescued by a Bailout, A.I.G. May Sue Its Savior
By BEN PROTESS and MICHAEL J. DE LA MERCED
January 7, 2013 10:30 pm
An American International Group office building in New York in 2008.Mark Lennihan/Associated PressAn American International Group office building in New York in 2008.

Fresh from paying back a $182 billion bailout, the American International Group has been running a nationwide advertising campaign with the tagline “Thank you America.”

Behind the scenes, the restored insurance company is weighing whether to tell the government agencies that rescued it during the financial crisis: thanks, but you cheated our shareholders.

The board of A.I.G. will meet on Wednesday to consider joining a $25 billion shareholder lawsuit against the government, court records show. The lawsuit does not argue that government help was not needed. It contends that the onerous nature of the rescue — the taking of what became a 92 percent stake in the company, the deal’s high interest rates and the funneling of billions to the insurer’s Wall Street clients — deprived shareholders of tens of billions of dollars and violated the Fifth Amendment, which prohibits the taking of private property for “public use, without just compensation.”

Maurice R. Greenberg, A.I.G.’s former chief executive, who remains a major investor in the company, filed the lawsuit in 2011 on behalf of fellow shareholders. He has since urged A.I.G. to join the case, a move that could nudge the government into settlement talks.

The choice is not a simple one for the insurer. Its board members, most of whom joined after the bailout, owe a duty to shareholders to consider the lawsuit. If the board does not give careful consideration to the case, Mr. Greenberg could challenge its decision to abstain.

Should Mr. Greenberg snare a major settlement without A.I.G., the company could face additional lawsuits from other shareholders. Suing the government would not only placate the 87-year-old former chief, but would put A.I.G. in line for a potential payout.

Yet such a move would almost certainly be widely seen as an audacious display of ingratitude. The action would also threaten to inflame tensions in Washington, where the company has become a byword for excessive risk-taking on Wall Street.

Some government officials are already upset with the company for even seriously entertaining the lawsuit, people briefed on the matter said. The people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, noted that without the bailout, A.I.G. shareholders would have fared far worse in bankruptcy.

“On the one hand, from a corporate governance perspective, it appears they’re being extra cautious and careful,” said Frank Partnoy, a former banker who is now a professor of law and finance at the University of San Diego School of Law. “On the other hand, it’s a slap in the face to the taxpayer and the government.”

For its part, A.I.G. has seized on the significance and complexity of the case, which is filed in both New York and Washington. A federal judge in New York dismissed the case, while the Washington court allowed it to proceed.

“The A.I.G. board of directors takes its fiduciary duties and business judgment responsibilities seriously,” said a spokesman, Jon Diat.

On Wednesday, the case will command the spotlight for several hours at A.I.G.’s Lower Manhattan headquarters.

Mr. Greenberg’s company, Starr International, will begin with a 45-minute presentation to the board, according to people briefed on the matter. Mr. Greenberg is expected to attend, they added.

It will be an unusual homecoming of sorts for Mr. Greenberg, who ran A.I.G. for nearly four decades until resigning amid investigations into an accounting scandal in 2005. For some years after his abrupt departure, there was bitterness and litigation between the company and its former chief.

After the Starr briefing on Wednesday, lawyers for the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve Bank of New York — the architects of the bailout and defendants in the cases — will make their presentations. Each side will have a few minutes to rebut.

While the discussions are part of an already scheduled board meeting, securities lawyers say it is rare for an entire board to meet on a single piece of litigation.

“It makes eminent good sense in this case, but I’ve never heard of this kind of situation,” said Henry Hu, a former regulator who is now a professor at the University of Texas School of Law in Austin.

It is unclear whether the directors are leaning toward joining the case. The board said in a court filing that it would probably decide by the end of January.

Until now, the insurance giant has sat on the sidelines. But its delay in making a decision, some officials say, has drawn out the case, forcing the government to pay significant legal costs.

The presentations on Wednesday come on top of hundreds of pages of submissions that the government prepared last year, a time-consuming and costly process. The Justice Department, which assigned about a dozen lawyers to the case and hired outside experts, told a judge handling the matter that Starr was seeking 16 million pages in documents from the government.

“How many?” the startled judge, Thomas C. Wheeler, asked, according to a transcript.

Struck just days after the collapse of Lehman Brothers in September 2008, the bailout of A.I.G. proved to be among the biggest and thorniest of the financial crisis rescues. The company was on the brink of collapse because of deteriorating mortgage securities that it had insured through credit-default swaps.

Starting in 2010, the insurer embarked on a series of moves aimed at repaying its taxpayer-financed bailout, including selling major divisions. It also held a number of stock offerings for the government to reduce its stake, which eventually generated a roughly $22 billion profit.

Overseeing that comeback was a new chief executive, Robert H. Benmosche, a tough-talking longtime insurance executive. Mr. Benmosche has won plaudits, including from government officials, for his managing of A.I.G.’s public relations even as he helped nurse the company back to financial health.

But he and the rest of A.I.G.’s board must now confront an equally pugnacious predecessor in Mr. Greenberg.

In the case against the government, Mr. Greenberg, through his lead lawyer, David Boies, contends that the bailout plan extracted a “punitive” interest rate of more than 14 percent. The government’s huge stake in the company also diluted the holdings of existing shareholders like Starr, which at the time was A.I.G.’s largest investor.

“The government has been saying, ‘We’re your friend, we owned and controlled you and we let you go.’ But A.I.G. doesn’t owe loyalty to the government,” a person close to Mr. Greenberg said. “It owes loyalty to its shareholders.”

The government, Starr argues, used billions of dollars from A.I.G. to settle credit-default swaps the insurer had with banks like Goldman Sachs. The deal, according to the lawsuit, empowered the government to carry out a “backdoor bailout” of Wall Street.

Starr argued that the actions violated the Fifth Amendment. “The government is not empowered to trample shareholder and property rights even in the midst of a financial emergency,” the Starr complaint says.

The Treasury Department declined to comment. A spokesman for the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Jack Gutt, said, “There is no merit to these allegations.” He noted that “A.I.G.’s board of directors had an alternative choice to borrowing from the Federal Reserve, and that choice was bankruptcy.”

A federal judge in Manhattan agreed, dismissing the case in November. In an 89-page opinion, Judge Paul A. Engelmayer wrote that while Starr’s complaint “paints a portrait of government treachery worthy of an Oliver Stone movie,” the company “voluntarily accepted the hard terms offered by the one and only rescuer that stood between it and imminent bankruptcy.”

The United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit recently agreed to review the case on an expedited timeline. The judge in the United States Court of Federal Claims in Washington, meanwhile, has declined to dismiss the case and continues to await A.I.G.’s decision.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com...-may-sue-its-savior/
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Tony Kania
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Report this Post06-15-2014 10:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One word... Shady added, good for nothing, dick sucking, lawyers! (Was that one word? I got carried away.)

Lawyers were working on this since before the ink dried. They really need to be corralled. If not for this, at least for mucking up the interior of vehicles with those damned safety iron ons that litter the visors!
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Report this Post06-15-2014 01:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What does this have to do with "entitled rich?"

 
quote
The lawsuit does not argue that government help was not needed. It contends that the onerous nature of the rescue — the taking of what became a 92 percent stake in the company, the deal’s high interest rates and the funneling of billions to the insurer’s Wall Street clients — deprived shareholders of tens of billions of dollars and violated the Fifth Amendment, which prohibits the taking of private property for “public use, without just compensation.”


If those accusations are true, the government's "help" may have broken the law.
Much like the GM bailout wiped out a lot of shareholder investments. These investors aren't some faceless evil rich, they're everyday working people with 401k's and investment accounts saving for retirement, children's college funds, etc. Some may be wealthy, but the vast majority aren't. If anything, the "evil rich" involved here were the Wall St. clients who got paydays from the government at the expense of AIG shareholders.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 06-15-2014).]

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dennis_6
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Report this Post06-15-2014 02:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:

What does this have to do with "entitled rich?"


If those accusations are true, the government's "help" may have broken the law.
Much like the GM bailout wiped out a lot of shareholder investments. These investors aren't some faceless evil rich, they're everyday working people with 401k's and investment accounts saving for retirement, children's college funds, etc. Some may be wealthy, but the vast majority aren't. If anything, the "evil rich" involved here were the Wall St. clients who got paydays from the government at the expense of AIG shareholders.



Shareholders would have lost everything if the company closed its doors also, but wasn't talking about the shareholders. AIG should find some way to compensate the shareholders instead of suing the government and costing the taxpayers that bailed them out, more money. That is entitlement, and no one forced them to take the bail out.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 06-15-2014).]

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Report this Post06-15-2014 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for heybjornSend a Private Message to heybjornEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:

If those accusations are true, the government's "help" may have broken the law.



Where were the AIG attorneys then? Why didn't AIG bring suit to stop the government then on the basis of it's current suit?

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Report this Post06-15-2014 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

Shareholders would have lost everything if the company closed its doors also, but wasn't talking about the shareholders. AIG should find some way to compensate the shareholders instead of suing the government and costing the taxpayers that bailed them out, more money. That is entitlement, and no one forced them to take the bail out.



Not necessarily. There are proceedings in a bankruptcy. (which weren't used for the GM "bankruptcy" and shareholders were wiped out that may have gotten some settlement in a legal bankruptcy proceeding)

If there is evidence the government illegally seized property, AIG has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders to pursue that.

Loaning your buddy $20 doesn't mean you get to take his car. You don't get to rob someone under the guise of "helping" them.
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Report this Post06-15-2014 09:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Formula88

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quote
Originally posted by heybjorn:


Where were the AIG attorneys then? Why didn't AIG bring suit to stop the government then on the basis of it's current suit?


I'm sure that will be brought up in court. I have no idea if AIG's claims are valid or have merit, but if the allegation is true then AIG and the shareholders have a rightful claim. It has to be proven in court, though. I'm not siding with AIG - only stating the claim should go through the legal process.
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Report this Post06-16-2014 10:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carnut122Send a Private Message to carnut122Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
AIG didn't have to take the deal. They could have gone elsewhere.
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Report this Post06-16-2014 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carnut122:

AIG didn't have to take the deal. They could have gone elsewhere.


Loan sharks say the same thing just before breaking your legs for not paying.
Their acceptance of the deal may absolve the government of any wrongdoing. I believe the question should be asked and answered, not just assumed.
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Report this Post06-16-2014 02:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carnut122:

AIG didn't have to take the deal. They could have gone elsewhere.

Not true at all.
In 2007, AIG was the largest insurer in the world. They insured virtually every major pension plan in the US, including the govt employee's pension plans, all of the Big 3 Auto pension plans, every major manufactorer's pension plans, virtually all of Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac mortgages, most banks' assets above FDIC insured limits, was, thru their subsidiaries, the largest auto liability insurer in the world, insured many if not most private retirement plans, and a failure of AIG in 2007 was deemed by the Federal Reserve, US Treasury, FDIC, SEC and US Banking Comission to be a matter of National Security. Their failure would have brought down every investment house, most banks, many corporations, and the US dollar would have sunk to never before seen lows. Basically, all the eggs around the globe had ended up in AIG's basket.

The timeline for AIG's "bailout" explains that AIG had already exhausted all it's ability to "go elsewhere".

[i]Aug 5 2007:
In a conference call with investors, AIG stated the near absoulte security of credit default swaps and said the risk taken is really very modest and remote.

A week later Goldman Sachs, a primary lender and heavy investor in AIG demanded AIG $1.5B in collatoral. AIG posted about $450 million.

AIG began seeing big losses.
OCT 2007, Goldman requires AIG to post another $3.2 billion in collatoral. The raise and post #1.5B in collatoral.

Nov 7 2007, AIG posted $325 million in unrealized losses.

Dec 5 2007, AIG reports additional losses of $1.15 B in it's swaps portfolio, bringing total loses for 2007 to over $1.5 B. AIG however, continued to claim thatthe risks were low for permanent loss risks, but laterthe same day, in a regulatory filing, AIG disclosed it had found a "material weakness" in it's swaps and reported further losses of $4.5B, bringing real 2007 losses to $6 billion USD.

Bleeding continued:
By Feb 2008, that 2007 loss had been adjusted upwards to $11.58 B. They raise and post an additional $5.3B in collatoral.

May 8, 2008, AIG's posted losses for 1st qtr to exceed $9.1B with a total loss since Aug 2007 to be $20.6B and that they have raised and posted only $9.7B in collatoral to date.

May 12 2008, former AIG CEO Hank Greenburg announces AIG investors have lost $80B since Aug 2007.

May 20 2007, AIG is forced to raise another $20B in private capital to continue to function and to post against losses in it's CDS portfolio.

June 15, AIG board votes to fire and replace their CEO.

Aug 6, 2007, AIG announces 2nd qtr financials with a total loss for the 1st half of 2007 of $20.2 billion and total collatoral of $16.5B. They are way behind the curve on losses to collatoral.

Sept 6 2008--Govt takes over Fannie Mae/Freddy Mac.

Sept 14, global investment giant Lehman Bros went under forever.

Sept 15, 2007: Standard & Poor's downgrades AIG's credit rating due to "the combination of reduced flexibility in meeting additional collateral needs and concerns over increasing residential mortgage-related losses." The downgrade forces another $14.5 billion in collateral, putting the insurer near collapse. They have now exhausted their ability to further raise capital.

The next day, because of the now very real risk to residential mortgages, the US Federal Reserve and US Treasury step in, and force a take over of AIG.
The board is dissolved, the CEO replaced and the Govt (taxpayer) now owns 80% of AIG. AIG has and is given, no choice in the matter.

 
quote
pdated Sept. 16, 2008 11:59 p.m. ET
The U.S. government seized control of American International Group Inc. AIG +0.48% -- one of the world's biggest insurers -- in an $85 billion deal that signaled the intensity of its concerns about the danger a collapse could pose to the financial system.

The step marks a dramatic turnabout for the federal government, which had been strongly resisting overtures from AIG for an emergency loan or some intervention that would prevent the insurer from falling into bankruptcy. Just last weekend, the government essentially pulled the plug on Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., allowing the big investment bank to go under instead of giving it financial support. This time, the government decided AIG truly was too big to fail.


In Nov 2008, AIG posts a record quarterly loss of almost $25 billion dollars, but posts $3 billion dollars in profit. It estimates its total unrealized losses from credit default swaps for 2007 and 2008 at $42.5 billion dollars.

That's the way it happened (tho the exact specifics "offered" to AIG behind closed doors of the Fed and Treasury have never been made public)
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randye
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Report this Post06-16-2014 05:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i]Aug 5 2007:
In a conference call with investors, AIG stated the near absoulte security of credit default swaps and said the risk taken is really very modest and remote.

A week later Goldman Sachs, a primary lender and heavy investor in AIG demanded AIG $1.5B in collatoral. AIG posted about $450 million.

AIG began seeing big losses.
OCT 2007, Goldman requires AIG to post another $3.2 billion in collatoral. The raise and post #1.5B in collatoral.

Nov 7 2007, AIG posted $325 million in unrealized losses.

Dec 5 2007, AIG reports additional losses of $1.15 B in it's swaps portfolio, bringing total loses for 2007 to over $1.5 B. AIG however, continued to claim thatthe risks were low for permanent loss risks, but laterthe same day, in a regulatory filing, AIG disclosed it had found a "material weakness" in it's swaps and reported further losses of $4.5B, bringing real 2007 losses to $6 billion USD.

Bleeding continued:
By Feb 2008, that 2007 loss had been adjusted upwards to $11.58 B. They raise and post an additional $5.3B in collatoral.

May 8, 2008, AIG's posted losses for 1st qtr to exceed $9.1B with a total loss since Aug 2007 to be $20.6B and that they have raised and posted only $9.7B in collatoral to date.

May 12 2008, former AIG CEO Hank Greenburg announces AIG investors have lost $80B since Aug 2007.

May 20 2007, AIG is forced to raise another $20B in private capital to continue to function and to post against losses in it's CDS portfolio.


A little explanation here:

"Default swaps", "swaps portfolios", and "CDS portfolio" all refer to the same thing in the financial derivatives investment world.

"CDS" : Credit Default Swap

This is basically "insurance" taken out against a derivative investment, such as a "MBS" (Mortgage Backed Security), It pays out if the borrower defaults.
It is also frequently called a "credit enhancement"
It is called a "credit enhancement" because when added to an other wise poor or bad, (C, D or lower grade investment), it allowed the ratings agencies such as Moodys, S&P and others to basically grade pure "dog crap" mortgages as higher quality A, AA AAA A++ investments.

Institutional investors are the people that manage pension funds, retirement funds 401k funds, etc.
They are bound by LAWS which require them to only invest in highly rated, "secure", investments


SO...AIG insured dog crap mortgages so that they could then be rated as A++ investment quality so that "institutional investors" such as YOUR pension fund, YOUR retirement 401K fund and everyone elses money could be SCAMMED into buying dog crap mortgages that they KNEW were going to go bad.

BUT THEY WERE INSURED RIGHT??!!

YES, ...BUT NOT INSURED TO THE INVESTORS!..........The Wall Street crooks who took out the AIG, (and Lehman Brothers), credit default swaps (CDS's) "insurance" against the dog crap mortgages to make them look like "gold" to the investors made sure that the insurance was payable to the AGGREGATORS of the Trusts NOT the investors.

WHO were the AGGREGATORS you ask?
Well they are the very SAME as the TRUSTEES and the MASTER SERVICERS of the securitized trusts that scammed all of YOUR pension funds

They are the BANKS.......The very SAME BANKS we all BAILED OUT.

So the BANKS got the CDS money, they got the BAIL OUT money AND they are getting the foreclosed homes.

Pretty good scam. get paid on the same scam THREE WAYS.

As Profesor William Black says: "The best way to rob a bank, is to OWN one."

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 06-16-2014).]

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Report this Post06-16-2014 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:

CDS...

I don't dispute any of that, but it doesn't change the fact that AIG had no choice in whether to "accept" the takeover of it's operations by the Fed.
It also doesn't change the fact that AIG was a conventional insurer (along with being a very big player in credit default swaps) .

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Report this Post06-16-2014 05:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

I don't dispute any of that, but it doesn't change the fact that AIG had no choice in whether to "accept" the takeover of it's operations by the Fed.
It also doesn't change the fact that AIG was a conventional insurer (along with being a very big player in credit default swaps) .


AIG was indeed a "conventional insurer"...UNTIL the unbridled GREED of the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars started rapidly pouring in from all of the CDS business they started doing in mid-2000's. When questions started being asked about their BILLIONS in LIABILITY EXPOSURE on all these CDS policies, both Lehman Brothers and AIG basically laughed it off at first and then as the reality started sinking in later they both outright "cooked the books" to hide it from regulators and shareholders.

You are 100% correct. They didn't have any choice in the end, but as far as being a cause of their own demise....well I think that's obvious.

I recall reading a quote from somebody at AIG after the crash, who said: "Nobody believed that real estate would ever go DOWN in value. It was unheard of."
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