With all of the uproar that is surrounding Hobby Lobby right now, I wouldn't be surprised to see the President step in with an executive order to override the SCOTUS and force them to do what he wants so as to score him a few points with his base. After that, I see groups calling for the immediate closing of all of the Hobby Lobby's because they don't like them. It's ridiculous I know, but I can also see it happening in this uninformed day and age. Emotion overrides logic and information. I don't see how not covering the morning/week-after pill and IUD's in their insurance plan is forcing their religious beliefs on people. It's just not paying for absolutely everything. Hobby Lobby's policy still covers sixteen of the twenty approved birth control measures. But the media has taken off with this as meaning that birth control will now be made illegal and that women are being made into second class citizens. Frustrating.
Originally posted by whadeduck: But the media has taken off with this as meaning that birth control will now be made illegal and that women are being made into second class citizens. Frustrating.
But why would the media fabricate such misinformation? Oh, right, to push the Progressive agenda.
I find this extremely troubling, especially since ACA & Hobby Lobby will still provide viagra and vasectomies (is this not considered a form of birth control? because it completely is) to their employees under their coverage.
I don't believe abortions should be covered under healthcare, but contraception should. This is a loss for any hobby Lobby employees who were hoping for a turnaround, and it sets a troubling precedent.
EDIT: I am reading different things from different sources: Were abortions ruled out, or was it abortions AND birth control? I'm okay with the former but not the latter. Could someone provide me with some clarification?
[This message has been edited by Bradley Jay (edited 07-01-2014).]
I find this extremely troubling, especially since ACA & Hobby Lobby will still provide viagra and vasectomies (is this not considered a form of birth control? because it completely is) to their employees under their coverage.
I don't believe abortions should be covered under healthcare, but contraception should. This is a loss for any hobby Lobby employees who were hoping for a turnaround, and it sets a troubling precedent.
EDIT: I am reading different things from different sources: Were abortions ruled out, or was it abortions AND birth control? I'm okay with the former but not the latter. Could someone provide me with some clarification?
Hobby Lobby's insurance plan still covers 16 of the 20 mandated forms of birth control under the ACA. The morning/week-after pills and IUD's are what they have objections to because of their abortion stance.
Abortion and the so called "morning after" pill are a form of birth control. So is a vasectomy. News sites are not distinguishing between the different choices. There are 20 approved contraceptives of which Hobby Lobby objected to 4 that affected a fertilized egg.
Okay, that's not a big deal to me then. The morning-after pill is OOC now and quite affordable, so I don't believe it should be included. I was under the impression that birth control pills were being excluded, which is ridiculous IMO.
IUD's are another matter, but some women who want to plan their pregnancy utilize IUDs because they suffer from adverse effects as a result of daily birth control medication. That should still be an option that is provided.
[This message has been edited by Bradley Jay (edited 07-01-2014).]
The IUDs objected to are inserted after the egg is fertilized, not before. The before sex types were not included. Not sure why but Hobby Lobby believes life starts when the egg is fertilized, as opposed to when the zygote implants itself into the uterus. But it is what it is.
Yeah that's a bit of a strange timeline. I thought this was a lot worse than it was, though. At least these women still have the option to prevent a pregnancy.
Yeah that's a bit of a strange timeline. I thought this was a lot worse than it was, though. At least these women still have the option to prevent a pregnancy.
And that's where Hobby Lobby was drawing the line - preventing a pregnancy, not ending one. The media is making it sound like no birth control is covered at all.
The majority of the media is leaving out the fact that it's the four forms of birth control that were objected to and not everything. They have people, to include my wife, believing that birth control will become illegal now and then the religiously-based companies will now be allowed to discriminate against gays, women, and minorities as long as they base it on religious objections. The frustrating part is that she's so much smarter than that. But I'll let her rant and it will pass when she figures out the world will not end as a result of this.
Sometimes you don't want to win but only complain. I suspect a lot of GOP politicians are thinking that now. Thanks for the help SC - not. Yes, the left can spin it in a very negative light even if it's a major exaggeration. Both sides do it. More slippery slope nonsense on both sides.
The decision is narrow enough others corporations are unlikely to be able to apply it beyond the birth control issue (post fertilization) but I'll bet it's referenced in other challenges like not supporting blood transfusions, etc. We will see how they apply the standard.
It will be like lawsuits. You can sue anyone for anything. Being successful with it is another story. The other thing that the media seems to be touching lightly or not at all on is that Hobby Lobby is a closely-held for-profit corporation. The SCOTUS ruled based on that and not on the basis of any corporation. A closely-held corporation means that it's owned by members of a single family and not just a board of trustees. This case's ruling will likely not change much at all in the business world.
With all of the uproar that is surrounding Hobby Lobby right now, I wouldn't be surprised to see the President step in with an executive order to override the SCOTUS and force them to do what he wants so as to score him a few points with his base. After that, I see groups calling for the immediate closing of all of the Hobby Lobby's because they don't like them. It's ridiculous I know, but I can also see it happening in this uninformed day and age. Emotion overrides logic and information. I don't see how not covering the morning/week-after pill and IUD's in their insurance plan is forcing their religious beliefs on people. It's just not paying for absolutely everything. Hobby Lobby's policy still covers sixteen of the twenty approved birth control measures. But the media has taken off with this as meaning that birth control will now be made illegal and that women are being made into second class citizens. Frustrating.
People are already calling for boycotts so that they are forced to close.
I also have seen a bunch of crap about "wait until your boss wont let you.."' or "company rights won and peoples rights lost" **bs**.. They were not stopping anyone from doing anything. They just didnt want to pay for a few things.. They have rights too.
But yes, i wont discount a coming executive order that will cripple the company.
( and sorry for repeating some of what you said. The ignorance and brainless political spin about this whole issue is infuriating. )
Originally posted by User00013170: People are already calling for boycotts so that they are forced to close. I also have seen a bunch of crap about "wait until your boss wont let you.."' or "company rights won and peoples rights lost" **bs**.. They were not stopping anyone from doing anything. They just didnt want to pay for a few things.. They have rights too. But yes, i wont discount a coming executive order that will cripple the company ( and sorry for repeating some of what you said. The ignorance and brainless political spin about this whole issue is infuriating. )
People were already warmed up, primed for this too, with all the "business is bad" garbage thats been pushed.
I say, let them go ahead and close all of the businesses they think are horrible and evil. That way we can laugh at them when they wonder why they can't find a job anywhere. The spin by the Left and the media on this has been unbelievable. I don't think this will end until the company is either forced to go against their religious convictions and start worshiping government, or the combined antics of others just force the company to close altogether. If/when that happens, do you think anyone will apologize to the 18,000 people that would end up losing their jobs if that happened? Doubt it. They'd dance around claiming victory when all along their information was bogus.
I say, let them go ahead and close all of the businesses they think are horrible and evil. That way we can laugh at them when they wonder why they can't find a job anywhere. The spin by the Left and the media on this has been unbelievable. I don't think this will end until the company is either forced to go against their religious convictions and start worshiping government, or the combined antics of others just force the company to close altogether. If/when that happens, do you think anyone will apologize to the 18,000 people that would end up losing their jobs if that happened? Doubt it. They'd dance around claiming victory when all along their information was bogus.
My guess is they'll never put 2 and 2 together to understand that.
I say, let them go ahead and close all of the businesses they think are horrible and evil. That way we can laugh at them when they wonder why they can't find a job anywhere.
They will just go on welfare, like the plan is.. And how many of US would lose our jobs if enough businesses are closed....
I was being a little facetious. Your humor sensors must be slipping. But the outcome of all of these businesses closing and no one having a job would probably be a mystery to some . It's all about emotion over logic. Go with your emotions and logic or reality be damned. Just do whatever makes you feel good for the moment and let others deal with the consequences.
Hobby Lobby will not close. Just like the chicken place that the media and the Democrats tried to demagog. They will actually do better and business will be good. So screw the Main Stream Media and the Left wingers. And if Obama tries to single them out like he and his buddies did at the IRS towards conservatives, constitutionalists and TEA Partyers. Then it will be time to sue them all. It might take a few years, but a company who spit in the face of the establishment who tried to fine them millions of dollars and still went ahead with their convictions is not afraid.
It's unfortunate that this ruling was made, whether right or wrong. It plays right into the "war on women" argument that the Democrats made during the last election. There is no middle ground here and logic has nothing to do with it. I tried to explain the basis of the decision to my 30 something year old daughter and her final words were "I should know better than to argue with an old white guy." The logic may seem clear to us "old white guys" but what difference does it make?
It's unfortunate that this ruling was made, whether right or wrong. It plays right into the "war on women" argument that the Democrats made during the last election. There is no middle ground here and logic has nothing to do with it. I tried to explain the basis of the decision to my 30 something year old daughter and her final words were "I should know better than to argue with an old white guy." The logic may seem clear to us "old white guys" but what difference does it make?
Wow, sorry to here that. Liberalism does not use facts or common sense, just emotion. The problem with this type of mindset is that emotions change with the wind. Years down the road after an emotional drive directs legal decisions, that decision becomes law, BUT by the time the new law is in effect people move on to the next emotion. Then they want to change laws or make new ones.....again.
It's unfortunate that this ruling was made, whether right or wrong. It plays right into the "war on women" argument that the Democrats made during the last election. There is no middle ground here and logic has nothing to do with it. I tried to explain the basis of the decision to my 30 something year old daughter and her final words were "I should know better than to argue with an old white guy." The logic may seem clear to us "old white guys" but what difference does it make?
What this plays into is more of the laziness/business/unwillingness of the majority of people in this country. All people want anymore is a sound byte or a headline. They either have neither the time, nor the patience to read up on what they just spent twenty minutes ranting about because John Stewart made a fifteen second joke about it. The media knows this so they play right into it. This whole thing would most likely just go away or would have never even have been an issue had the media done their job and reported the facts of the case instead of selected facts. But maybe this will just go away with another installment of "Look, a bright and shiny object!" Have you noticed no one is talking about the IRS anymore?
the real war is Obamas and the Democrats war on Christians and believing people.
Huh?
The owners of HL have no problem giving money to the Chinese (who then use the money for abortions and other anti-christian activities). Also, HL owners will take money from non-christians and people who have had abortions. They welcome them into their stores, give them shelter as they shop, give them products in exchange for money.... Seems a little odd that HL owners are selective about how they apply their religious values.
The owners of HL have no problem giving money to the Chinese (who then use the money for abortions and other anti-christian activities). Also, HL owners will take money from non-christians and people who have had abortions. They welcome them into their stores, give them shelter as they shop, give them products in exchange for money.... Seems a little odd that HL owners are selective about how they apply their religious values.
Oh please. Even the Amish dont get it 100% right. Here taxes pay for alot of things they shouldnt too. We all live in the world.
I thought we were talking Christian religious beliefs and their family run corporation.... Nothing to do with taxes or the Amish....
"Let God sort them out" - Duke Nukem
Not sure you got my point. Maybe I left too many blanks to fill in. You cant follow every dollar you spend for example. Its a ridiculous argument.
I pay taxes, many of thesm are used for things I am against. How would you recommend I control it? The Amish pretty much separeate themselves from all of us, its still not enough, and causes other problems.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-02-2014).]
The owners of HL have no problem giving money to the Chinese (who then use the money for abortions and other anti-christian activities). Also, HL owners will take money from non-christians and people who have had abortions. They welcome them into their stores, give them shelter as they shop, give them products in exchange for money.... Seems a little odd that HL owners are selective about how they apply their religious values.
Sure, can't you see the discrimination suites if they tried to keep them out. This reply of yours is really out there. I don't think you thought it through, that or you just don't care.
The owners of HL have no problem giving money to the Chinese (who then use the money for abortions and other anti-christian activities). Also, HL owners will take money from non-christians and people who have had abortions. They welcome them into their stores, give them shelter as they shop, give them products in exchange for money.... Seems a little odd that HL owners are selective about how they apply their religious values.
Your inability to distinguish the issues here is really at an amazing level.
Of COURSE the Hobby Lobby family has a problem with people who use money for abortions and other anti-christian activities.
That has nothing to do with how they "apply their religious values".
They have repeatedly stated. WE believe what WE believe. And so WE will hold ourselves to a certain behavior, and don't want the government to, by force, make US violate our beliefs with certain behaviors.
But they have also repeatedly stated that they apply those behavior standards TO THEMSELVES. They do not impose them on others.
They are gracious and kind to others. They do business with others. They respect the individual people's rights to make their own decisions, and their own behaviors.
THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S BEHAVIORS. They are only responsible for their own. And they lived peaceably with others who made different standard choices, including customers and employees.
It was only when the government violated the constitution and tried to force THEM to violate their own standards, that they stood up.
What is so complex about that to distinguish? Are you trying to not see it?
They tried so hard to be good citizens and neighbors that they were already providing the birth control measures that the ACA demanded, before there was and ACA.
EXCEPT for those they believe causes abortions. That crossed their standard line. But because you and Obama, and people like you don't believe in individual freedoms afforded by the constitution, and can't abide that anyone would try to avail of themselves of those rights, even though they are explicitly spelled out, and believe in compelling people to violate their religious beliefs by threat of government, they had to stand up.
And my goodness. The 5 member so the SCOTUS were perfect.
ONLY businesses where it is clear that it is mainly a few individuals that are running it, does this apply to. What in the world is wrong with the other 4?
"oh, well it sets a precedent for others that object to things."
No it doesn't. The strict limitation of privately held family businesses exempts that.
Oh, but jackispyder will have NONE of this individual constitutionally given rights business. No way. Individual freedoms. Individual responsibilities. Live with others who disagree and live and let live. Like Hobby Lobby is trying to do. Remember those days, jackispyder? Just not good enough for you, is it?
I have to actively use them. Humor doesn't come naturally to me as its an emotional thing, which i lack. I have go to on "what would regular people think about that statement".
Sometimes i get it wrong, or forget to 'analyze' it at all...
I have to actively use them. Humor doesn't come naturally to me as its an emotional thing, which i lack. I have go to on "what would regular people think about that statement".
Sometimes i get it wrong, or forget to 'analyze' it at all...
But the outcome of all of these businesses closing and no one having a job would probably be a mystery to some . It's all about emotion over logic. Go with your emotions and logic or reality be damned. Just do whatever makes you feel good for the moment and let others deal with the consequences. 
