Yes. Did you see the pictures of the plane? Looked like a pretty controlled landing to me.
With an engine out you do VERY shallow and gentle turns, otherwise you stall the plane and fall out of the sky and have a REAL crash on your hands (there is a big long explanation involving bank angles, effective span, airspeed, angles of attack ect--the above is just the coles notes, but basically at a 45-degree bank your stall speed is double that of level flight--stall is the point you stop flying and start falling http://www.pprune.org/tech-...te-stall-speed.html)
It was very likely impossible for the pilot to turn enough to miss the people in the altitude and distance he had available to him.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 07-27-2014).]
Since you're a pilot, I'll ask you: do you crash the plane or run over the father and daughter on the beach?
There is not nearly enough information in that article for me to make that call from a computer chair. Were the pedestrians walking towards, away from, or lateral to the aircraft ? Was the pilot fast ? slow? did he have a steep or flat approach angle ? Did he encounter some turbulence/ updraft/ downdraft that altered his approach angle (shoreline winds can be tricky) ? The flaps are up in the picture which tells us he either retracted them after landing (unlikely there) or he had them retracted and was carrying some extra speed (NOT very smart for a soft-field landing, which a beach is,) but he may have needed it for wind conditions
The article also mentions debris. Did one of the gear clip a piece of driftwood or something and turn that into a missile that hit the father daughter? How about the nose gear, look at its position in the picture. That could be the missile. They are certainly heavy enough to do major damage to a human body.
The dynamic on something like this is WAY too complex to analyze based on one news article.
But the direct answer is I land the plane as I was trained to do. 2 potential injuries (see above) are a better option than 2 certain deaths--possibly 4 from the flying (very sharp) debris from the wreckage at impact.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 07-27-2014).]
... basically at a 45-degree bank your stall speed is double that of level flight ...
No! For unaccelerated flight, in a 45 degree bank the stall speed will increase ~20% vs. straight and level ... not 100%.
N.B. For any bank angle θ, in unaccelerated flight the load factor (i.e. G load) will increase as (1 / cos (θ)) and the increase in stall speed will be given by (sqrt (1 / cos (θ))) ... i.e. (sqrt (load factor)).
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 07-28-2014).]
Well, I'm glad you're all okay with the "Screw everyone else, I'm maximizing MY chances of survival."
I don't think you are understanding. The plane was going down. There wasn't an option of "Oh wait, lets do this again." Nobody said "Screw everyone else."
The people, if the were even standing in front of the plane, couldn't even have been seen. It's not like driving a car, or a bus. The pilot likely scoped out the beach quickly, saw nobody and went for it. Once he got to the point of landing the nose is pointed up a little bit of an angle, meaning he couldn't see anything on the beach. There is a point of no return once you start a "crash landing", which starts when it wants to, not when you want it to.
There is a point of no return once you start a "crash landing", which starts when it wants to, not when you want it to.
This is essentially correct. Even without power, if the plane is gliding in wings-level flight at a speed above stall there may be sufficient kinetic energy left to "zoom" over a low obstacle, but once the speed decreases to stall there is no maneuvering capability left ... except down. Every pilot is taught this in primary training.
That said, there is not sufficient information available (yet) about this incident to discern whether or not the pilot could have avoided any obstacles on the beach at the last moment.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 07-28-2014).]
From the article, it seems to me that they could have been hit by plane debris and not the actual plane itself. We won't know what actually happened until all the facts are in.
Not enough info. I will tell you when your landing without engine power, there is no such thing as climbing back up. Your landing speed is just above a stall speed to start with and raising the nose will most likely instantly stall it and it would fall right to the ground in the same place it would have touched down anyway. So if he pulled the nose up, more likely than not, instead of hitting them, he would have dropped on top of them. It would have killed them anyway plus himself and passengers.
Not enough info. I will tell you when your landing without engine power, there is no such thing as climbing back up. Your landing speed is just above a stall speed to start with and raising the nose will most likely instantly stall it and it would fall right to the ground in the same place it would have touched down anyway. So if he pulled the nose up, more likely than not, instead of hitting them, he would have dropped on top of them. It would have killed them anyway plus himself and passengers.
Or the pilot could have landed in the water (even if it meant injury or death to people in plane), away from people.... But, we don't know all the details at this point. I doubt the victims ran out in front of the plane... so, the people must have been on the beach to begin with.
Or the pilot could have landed in the water (even if it meant injury or death to people in plane), away from people.... But, we don't know all the details at this point. I doubt the victims ran out in front of the plane... so, the people must have been on the beach to begin with.
I got ya, but as pilot shouldn't his number one priority be the safety of the passengers?
I got ya, but as pilot shouldn't his number one priority be the safety of the passengers?
Brad
Or the innocent people, who didn't take on the risk of flying? Hard to say, but if it was me and I was in my vehicle (as an example), I would risk running into a bunch of trees, vs a group of people. At least the chance of injury could be lessened.
Or the innocent people, who didn't take on the risk of flying? Hard to say, but if it was me and I was in my vehicle (as an example), I would risk running into a bunch of trees, vs a group of people. At least the chance of injury could be lessened.
We still don't know for sure, but would it make a difference if a piece came off of his plane and killed them?
In other news, it's not like this was the pilots plan, you can't seriously think he killed them on purpose.
Or the pilot could have landed in the water (even if it meant injury or death to people in plane), away from people.... But, we don't know all the details at this point. I doubt the victims ran out in front of the plane... so, the people must have been on the beach to begin with.
Could he? We really don't know how much control he had over the plane, and at what time - if ever - he saw the people on the beach. Caspersen Beach is very close to the Venice airport and he said he couldn't make it back to the airport. Whatever went wrong was forcing him down quickly. https://maps.google.com/map...ersen+Beach&t=m&z=15
Look at the runways. Was he trying to line up an approach before he realized he couldn't make it to the airport? If he was making an approach to runway 31, his options to land in the water were limited. Also look at how dense the houses are around the airport. An approach over the undeveloped section of beach would be the one that put the fewest lives at risk. (assuming he had the time to make that assessment and the ability to alter course that much). If he was going for an approach to runway 4, my guess is he would have crashed in the water without reaching the beach. Without knowing his flight path, it's just a guess, though.
There's a lot of supposition about what he "could" have done. We really don't know, but I'm sure there will be a full investigation.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-28-2014).]
I couldn't help but notice that you didn't answer my question.
Brad
I didn't answer your question because it didn't look like anything was missing from the plane. The prop was there, the fuselage was intact. Was the plane safe to fly? Was something loose and came off? If so, the pilot could still be responsible for the plane and to make sure it was safe to fly. We talk about personal responsibility here on this forum, so I would say the pilot is responsible for his/her actions and landing on the beach vs water (or where ever) is the choice he/she made and they have to live with the consequences of that decision..... again, based on what we know... I can't just drive my car into a group of people, if the brakes fail and say.. "well, I stopped at least".
Could he? We really don't know how much control he had over the plane, and at what time - if ever - he saw the people on the beach. Caspersen Beach is very close to the Venice airport and he said he couldn't make it back to the airport. Whatever went wrong was forcing him down quickly. https://maps.google.com/map...ersen+Beach&t=m&z=15
Look at the runways. Was he trying to line up an approach before he realized he couldn't make it to the airport? If he was making an approach to runway 31, his options to land in the water were limited. Also look at how dense the houses are around the airport. An approach over the undeveloped section of beach would be the one that put the fewest lives at risk. (assuming he had the time to make that assessment and the ability to alter course that much).
There's a lot of supposition about what he "could" have done. We really don't know, but I'm sure there will be a full investigation.
As I told Fats... pilot is responsible for the plane and that is why there will be a lawsuit. That is the risk of flying a plane (even one located near a lot of houses, as you say).
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 07-28-2014).]
As I told Fats... pilot is responsible for the plane and that is why there will be a lawsuit. That is the risk of flying a plane (even one located near a lot of houses, as you say).
That is correct. If it was a mechanical failure, they will have to determine what failed and why to determine if it's something the pilot could have/should have known about.
That is correct. If it was a mechanical failure, they will have to determine what failed and why to determine if it's something the pilot could have/should have known about.
If not the pilot, then the mechanic or the manufacturer will be sued. Just the way the world works as someone lost their life because of this plane. Right or wrong...
If not the pilot, then the mechanic or the manufacturer will be sued. Just the way the world works as someone lost their life because of this plane. Right or wrong...
Agreed. The FAA will investigate regardless and assign fault where appropriate. That happens with any crash, regardless of any lawsuit. The lawsuit will be a civil one for damages from the family.
I didn't answer your question because it didn't look like anything was missing from the plane. The prop was there, the fuselage was intact. Was the plane safe to fly? Was something loose and came off? If so, the pilot could still be responsible for the plane and to make sure it was safe to fly. We talk about personal responsibility here on this forum, so I would say the pilot is responsible for his/her actions and landing on the beach vs water (or where ever) is the choice he/she made and they have to live with the consequences of that decision..... again, based on what we know... I can't just drive my car into a group of people, if the brakes fail and say.. "well, I stopped at least".
You obviously missed that the nose landing gear was torn off and laying on the beach yards away from the plane. How do we know he could even see the people walking. Have you ever sat in the pilot seat during a landing ? Were they wearing brite colored clothes, or did they blend in with the beach? Was the sun in the pilots eyes ? Pilots have landed and hit other planes they didnt see in time. A single person with a child would be a very small thing to see clearly from 1/4 mile away and above them (foreshortening). They might not have appeared much bigger than just a head till the last few seconds. Can you tell what something is on a freeway at 70 mph thats the size of a basketball several hundred yards away ? People run into chunks of tires all the time before they realize what it is. Ive found myself slowing down for what turned out to be just a shadow.
You would not be charged for a crime if you ran over a group of people if your brakes failed. Their best bet would be to sue the auto manufacturer or brake supplier. Your insurance would pay up to their stated policy limits.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-29-2014).]
If you fly, you take the responsibility for your actions. The people were on the beach, not a landing strip. They were dressed for the beach. To think they should have seen the plane or dressed in bright colors is just redicious. If the pilot couldn't see that the area was clear, then he shouldn't have attempted to land there. He should have ditched the plane vs trying to save the plane. His choice was a bad one and two people died because of it.
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:
You obviously missed that the nose landing gear was torn off and laying on the beach yards away from the plane. How do we know he could even see the people walking. Have you ever sat in the pilot seat during a landing ? Were they wearing brite colored clothes, or did they blend in with the beach? Was the sun in the pilots eyes ? Pilots have landed and hit other planes they didnt see in time. A single person with a child would be a very small thing to see clearly from 1/4 mile away and above them (foreshortening). They might not have appeared much bigger than just a head till the last few seconds. Can you tell what something is on a freeway at 70 mph thats the size of a basketball several hundred yards away ? People run into chunks of tires all the time before they realize what it is. Ive found myself slowing down for what turned out to be just a shadow.
You would not be charged for a crime if you ran over a group of people if your brakes failed. Their best bet would be to sue the auto manufacturer or brake supplier. Your insurance would pay up to their stated policy limits.
If you fly, you take the responsibility for your actions. The people were on the beach, not a landing strip. They were dressed for the beach. To think they should have seen the plane or dressed in bright colors is just redicious. If the pilot couldn't see that the area was clear, then he shouldn't have attempted to land there. He should have ditched the plane vs trying to save the plane. His choice was a bad one and two people died because of it.
