At its very core, this is a tribal religious conflict that will never be resolved unless people stop choosing sides.
So you really don't have to choose between being "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine." If you support secularism, democracy, and a two-state solution -- and you oppose Hamas, settlement expansion, and the occupation -- you can be both.
If they keep asking you to pick a side after all of that, tell them you're going with hummus.
I guess that depends on how you define "occupation." To hear the Anti-Israel side of it, all of the "Mandatory Palestine" territory belongs to them and any Israel presence is "occupation." Opposing that "occupation" means you oppose the existence of any state of Israel in the Middle East. You can't support a two-state solution if that's the occupation you're opposing.
To me I see nothing wrong with what Israel is doing. To me they are doing nothing more than gentrification of an area. Which is a positive move in my book.
Yes, people do oppose the economic eviction of ghetto culture people, but it is the same that every nation faces. Sure you can make the ghetto its own city or nation ran by thugs of the ghetto and slums, but it will only exasperated the poor more.
To me I see nothing wrong with what Israel is doing. To me they are doing nothing more than gentrification of an area. Which is a positive move in my book.
Sooooo, some industrious people moves into rural Alabama and makes a success of it and then secedes from the US would be OK?
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 08-02-2014).]
Sooooo, some industrious people moving into rural Alabama and makes a success of it and then seceding from the US would be OK?
That is how USA got its start. Should Germany go back to East and West or Prussia? Or do accept the fact that borders change with the spoils to the victor.
From the Palestinian (non Jewish) perspective, Two was better than Three, and Three was better than Four. If it were not for the Six Day War (1967), the Palestinians would be looking at something in the range of Two to Three, instead of Four.
If the Palestinians and their Arab backers (Nasser of Egypt, and Syria, with backing from the U.S.S.R.) had been more compromising towards Israel in 1967, instead of nursing every grudge (old and new), and pushing for "more" using strident public rhetoric--which culminated in the United Arab Republic (= Egypt + Syria) declaring a blockade of the Israeli port of Eilat--then Israel would not have found conditions so favorable (in terms of world opinion, and especially, in terms of U.S. acquiescence) for launching the Six Day War that changed this picture from Three to Four.
Do be honest i could care less. who ever blows the other one to hell is the winner in my eyes, its a fight that has been going on for centuries, Why is it in the news now? because Obama wants to get involved.
There's been repeated offerings of land from Israel in exchange for peace. They give up the land, and the violence continues. Nevermind that saying Israel is occupying Palestine is the same as saying Florida is occupying North America.
Do be honest i could care less. who ever blows the other one to hell is the winner in my eyes, its a fight that has been going on for centuries, Why is it in the news now? because Obama wants to get involved.
That is why I don't get why everybody is so bent out of shape about Russia and the Ukraine. I mean, I guess it is ok for the USA to go into Iraq and Afghanistan and impose government/regime change and give weapons to rebels and shoot down an Iranian airliner. But we all get bent out of shape if Russia and the Ukraine fight over a disputed small piece of land? It's their business, not any of ours.
Yeah! The USA is more classy and on the "good guys" about it than Russia would be. But it really isn't any of our business. Watch it? Sure! But we can't tell Russia to back out of it.
The Members of Other Religions The HAMAS is a Humane Movement Article Thirty-One
HAMAS is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts.
Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. For if they were to gain the upper hand, fighting, torture and uprooting would follow; they would be fed up with each other, to say nothing of members of other religions. The past and the present are full of evidence to that effect.
"They will not fight you in body safe in fortified villages or from behind wells. Their adversity among themselves is very great. Ye think of them as a whole whereas their hearts are diverse. That is because they are a folk who have no sense." Sura 59 (al-Hashr, the Exile), verse 14
Islam accords his rights to everyone who has rights and averts aggression against the rights of others. The Nazi Zionist practices against our people will not last the lifetime of their invasion, for "states built upon oppression last only one hour, states based upon justice will last until the hour of Resurrection."
"Allah forbids you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your houses, that you should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loves the just dealers." Sura 60 (Al-Mumtahana), verse 8
Sooooo, some industrious people moving into rural Alabama and makes a success of it and then seceding from the US would be OK?
Well, they can TRY----but MOST people have enough common sense to not frack around with a well-armed southern redneck....besides, those boys know how to brew that clear stuff in a mason jar, and get the mix of pork, beef and venison JUST right in a sausage, and geeze...you are in tourist-trap Florida anyway, move a little north and left and see what happens to feriners in rural Alabama
Here is a hint, Yellowstone...DONT drive a black rented Yukon around there, those boys will think ya are some kind of gubmint agent or something and shoot 1st. YOU try explaining to enterprise rentals why there is a bullet hole in the back door.....meh, they were just joking around, if they really wanted to hit me the round would have gone thru the drivers door.
Yep, you're doing a pretty good job of showing you aren't picking a side there Yellowstone.
Brad
You're getting this wrong. This forum is already heavily pro-Israel. What it needed, from my perspective, was balanced arguments and the ones that were largely missing were the pro-Palestinian ones. There's no conflict (especially none that has been going on so long and has such a complicated history as this one) that's black and white, good and evil. That doesn't invalidate (and I have said that repeatedly) the pro-Israeli positions and arguments. The strategy and tactics of Hamas and any violent and/or religious organization are wrong. The way Hamas fights this conflict is wrong and despicable, especially towards their own people.
I still think that the Jewish people have no right to these lands based on some "divine prophecy" or the fact that they used to live there thousands of years ago. If that was a valid argument then we'd have immediate war almost anywhere in the world. I also think that the Zionist movement and the resulting Jewish mass immigration into Palestine largely created the problem in the first place. And I still think that Jewish extremist groups used the same terrorist tactics Israel now condemns against Ottomans, Arabs and the British to get the land they wanted.
Does any of this make Israel "wrong" and the Palestinians "right"? Of course not! Human history is full of this sh*t.
You're getting this wrong. This forum is already heavily pro-Israel. What it needed, from my perspective, was balanced arguments See thread title.
Looks like Yellowstone is just after debate/discussion, not siding with the Palestinians.
Of course for a sawdust on the floor proper debate we need Stimpy, Dude16, Phranc, 84bill, Uhlanstan and Neptune in here with us. LOL (as well as the "CORPRATS and NUTcons" guy.)
[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 08-02-2014).]
Looks like Yellowstone is just after debate/discussion, not siding with the Palestinians.
Ehm, this is a discussion forum. That's what it's for. From my perspective, we're discussing the complicated situation in the Middle East involving Israel and the Arabs. I maintain that there's no "right" or "wrong" but a continuous tit-for-tat and an unhealthy dose of ancient supernatural stories and beliefs (religion).
Do you think that a topic cannot or should not be discussed if there's no clear "right" or "wrong"?
Ehm, this is a discussion forum. That's what it's for. From my perspective, we're discussing the complicated situation in the Middle East involving Israel and the Arabs. I maintain that there's no "right" or "wrong" but a continuous tit-for-tat and an unhealthy dose of ancient supernatural stories and beliefs (religion).
Do you think that a topic cannot or should not be discussed if there's no clear "right" or "wrong"?
No, Im all for debate, thats why I suggested we needed our banned (and other 'side') members in here with us. A spirited debate is one of the reasons I enjoy it here.
As for the Topic, Ill have to side with Israel, like many others, I don't see Israel terrorizing anyone, using human shields or committing war crimes. Your opinion may vary.
[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 08-02-2014).]
I am a newshound and I don't know what the true situation is. All media that I have access to is slanted one way or the other. If I were to be forced to make an opinion based on the information available to me I would,come down on the side of Israel but I'm ninety percent sure that I'm being fed misinformation from both sides.
The Israelis are running an Apartheid system and that is the crux of the issue. If they would grant equal rights to everyone it would change things. The Knesset needs to have a Palestinian block, regardless if it has much influence or not, just representation is enough.
Now I don't think it would create peace and harmony, but it would help. The consequences of course is that you can't wall off the ghettos and treat ghetto people like second class citizens, which then brings crime and blight everywhere like America for example.
An Apartheid system has its pros and cons, but the best thing to do is just apply equal rights to all.
After watching the videos that I just saw... **** both the arabs and israelis. Bomb that whole region to glass. So sick how our media only shows us what they want.
Arabs killing HUNDREDS in a mass grave, and Israelis killing ambulance drivers as they come in to help the wounded. So many here do not search the news that they do not like.
You're getting this wrong. This forum is already heavily pro-Israel. What it needed, from my perspective, was balanced arguments and the ones that were largely missing were the pro-Palestinian ones. There's no conflict (especially none that has been going on so long and has such a complicated history as this one) that's black and white, good and evil. That doesn't invalidate (and I have said that repeatedly) the pro-Israeli positions and arguments. The strategy and tactics of Hamas and any violent and/or religious organization are wrong. The way Hamas fights this conflict is wrong and despicable, especially towards their own people.
I still think that the Jewish people have no right to these lands based on some "divine prophecy" or the fact that they used to live there thousands of years ago. If that was a valid argument then we'd have immediate war almost anywhere in the world. I also think that the Zionist movement and the resulting Jewish mass immigration into Palestine largely created the problem in the first place. And I still think that Jewish extremist groups used the same terrorist tactics Israel now condemns against Ottomans, Arabs and the British to get the land they wanted.
Does any of this make Israel "wrong" and the Palestinians "right"? Of course not! Human history is full of this sh*t.
I am a newshound and I don't know what the true situation is. All media that I have access to is slanted one way or the other. If I were to be forced to make an opinion based on the information available to me I would,come down on the side of Israel but I'm ninety percent sure that I'm being fed misinformation from both sides.
Someone posted a link earlier showing that the majority of pictures we are seeing that are labeled as the Israeli/Gaza fight are from another fight, Isis or something.
Originally posted by yellowstone:The strategy and tactics of Hamas and any violent and/or religious organization are wrong. The way Hamas fights this conflict is wrong and despicable, especially towards their own people.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by yellowstone:The strategy and tactics of Hamas and any violent and/or religious organization are wrong. The way Hamas fights this conflict is wrong and despicable, especially towards their own people.
What is "wrong" and "despicable" if not denouncing?
de·nounce verb publicly declare to be wrong or evil. "the Assembly denounced the use of violence" synonyms: condemn, criticize, attack, censure, decry, revile, vilify, discredit, damn, reject; More
What is "wrong" and "despicable" if not denouncing?
de·nounce verb publicly declare to be wrong or evil. "the Assembly denounced the use of violence" synonyms: condemn, criticize, attack, censure, decry, revile, vilify, discredit, damn, reject; More
So you won't then.
You can't directly answer a question, so this is not a debate.
Originally posted by Fats: Someone posted a link earlier showing that the majority of pictures we are seeing that are labeled as the Israeli/Gaza fight are from another fight, Isis or something.
Someone also posted a story earlier today that a Pakistani fisherman had recovered the waterlogged body of the late Osama bin Laden.
Graphic images are being shared on social media to show how people have been affected by the renewed tensions between Israel and the Palestinians.
Hamas has been firing rockets from Gaza into southern Israel, which has responded with airstrikes on Gaza. Several Palestinian militants have been killed and on Tuesday it was reported that at least 15 Palestinians had been injured.
Over the past week the hashtag #GazaUnderAttack has been used hundreds of thousands of times, often to distribute pictures claiming to show the effects the airstrikes.
Some of the images are of the current situation in Gaza, but a #BBCtrending analysis has found that some date as far back as 2009 and others are from conflicts in Syria and Iraq.
If you can't tell the difference between the two sites you may have a problem.
Originally posted by Fats: Someone posted a link earlier showing that the majority of pictures we are seeing that are labeled as the Israeli/Gaza fight are from another fight, Isis or something.
Good info, Brad. But how does that square with the way that you worded it? I can't speak for anyone else, but the majority of what I have been eyeballing (video, photos) is from the Internet websites of Aljazeera and Aljazeera America, NBC News, FOX News, CNN, BBC News, CBS News, ABC News and Reuters. The websites and the corresponding cable TV channels. I don't have a Twitter account and I do not see tweets, unless they are posted onto a website page that I am looking at.
I think that if any of "my" media sources put up something from another conflict and presented it as current Israel-Gaza (on purpose, or by mistake), I would likely be aware of it. I mean, if they were doing that day in and day out. I would figure that out.
Good info, Brad. But how does that square with the way that you worded it? I can't speak for anyone else, but the majority of what I have been eyeballing (video, photos) is from the Internet websites of Aljazeera and Aljazeera America, NBC News, FOX News, CNN, BBC News, CBS News, ABC News and Reuters. The websites and the corresponding cable TV channels. I don't have a Twitter account and I do not see tweets, unless they are posted onto a website page that I am looking at.
I think that if any of "my" media sources put up something from another conflict and presented it as current Israel-Gaza (on purpose, or by mistake), I would likely be aware of it. I mean, if they were doing that day in and day out. I would figure that out.
Of course you would, I wouldn't expect any less from you.
You can't directly answer a question, so this is not a debate.
Brad
You're really a piece of work. Yes, I denounce what Hamas does if that exact wording makes you happy somehow. I'm of the opinion that that was quite obvious before...
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 08-02-2014).]
LOL (as well as the "CORPRATS and NUTcons" guy.) 
A spirited debate is one of the reasons I enjoy it here. 
So sick how our media only shows us what they want. 
