Cool Germany. Now explain Greece, Italy, Spain, England, France, and Portugal? Same system, very different results.
not the same system every country is different and england and france are doing much better then greece or spain I would note that both greece and spain had long in power fascist rightwing governments in the resent past that totally screwed up their econ long term
now why did not those rightwing governments do better ? in fact has a rightwing government ever had long tern success ? short term they make the trains run on time but long term they fail big time
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
If you're going to quote Harry Reid as your "proof" you might as well quote Mickey Mouse. He's the same guy who claimed Mitt Romney paid no taxes for years, which was patently false. He's the most dishonest person in the Senate.
Tax breaks aside, off shoring jobs is happening because it's cheaper to operate in other countries. That's a combination of cheaper labor, infrastructure and tax rates. If a union employee in the US gets $20/hr and a company can have it made in China paying workers $5/hr (numbers just for example), that's a large savings that continues year after year. Any tax benefit of moving is a one time hit.
The biggest thing sending companies overseas is the 35% corporate tax rate. One of the highest in the world. Why would any company in their right mind keep their business here and pay 35% in taxes (or more) when they can move to another country and pay substantially less. A company is going to pass their costs onto the consumer. I know, to be "fair", they should just absorb those costs. But no company is going to exist for very long if they continuously absorb taxes and fees. Then everyone's out of a job. There's talk of the President pencil whipping a law that would make it more difficult for companies to move overseas. Good on the outside. However, if a company stays here, continuously sees their tax rates go up, passes it on to the consumer, consumers stop buying from the American company, company closes, everyone's out of a job. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The Federal Government sees nothing but a big piggy bank when they look at businesses. They fail to grasp the concept of "making the pie bigger than taking a bigger piece of the pie."
The biggest thing sending companies overseas is the 35% corporate tax rate. One of the highest in the world. Why would any company in their right mind keep their business here and pay 35% in taxes (or more) when they can move to another country and pay substantially less. A company is going to pass their costs onto the consumer. I know, to be "fair", they should just absorb those costs. But no company is going to exist for very long if they continuously absorb taxes and fees. Then everyone's out of a job. There's talk of the President pencil whipping a law that would make it more difficult for companies to move overseas. Good on the outside. However, if a company stays here, continuously sees their tax rates go up, passes it on to the consumer, consumers stop buying from the American company, company closes, everyone's out of a job. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The Federal Government sees nothing but a big piggy bank when they look at businesses. They fail to grasp the concept of "making the pie bigger than taking a bigger piece of the pie."
While I agree with some of this, we are also seeing record pay to CEOs and large profits for many corporations. The problem is that companies only look short term and try to maximize profit without looking at the future. When profits are down, they look to lower costs by moving to a new country. Eh... companies have shown themselves to be very greedy (not all, but many) and it isn't about creating jobs, it is about quick profits.
While I agree with some of this, we are also seeing record pay to CEOs and large profits for many corporations. The problem is that companies only look short term and try to maximize profit without looking at the future. When profits are down, they look to lower costs by moving to a new country. Eh... companies have shown themselves to be very greedy (not all, but many) and it isn't about creating jobs, it is about quick profits.
Don't look at dollars, look at percentages. Businesses work off of pro forma, a business plan that determines percentages for direct labor, indirect labor, cost of materials, reinvestment into the business, taxes, energy, and profit. Most large businesses, depending on the type of business of course, take a very small percentage as actual profit. Large profit dollar amounts are tied directly to large sales volumes and/or smart reinvestment programs. In nearly every business, taxes take a bigger chunk of every sales dollar than do profits.
While I agree with some of this, we are also seeing record pay to CEOs and large profits for many corporations. The problem is that companies only look short term and try to maximize profit without looking at the future. When profits are down, they look to lower costs by moving to a new country. Eh... companies have shown themselves to be very greedy (not all, but many) and it isn't about creating jobs, it is about quick profits.
Business is not about creating jobs, it is about profitability. Successful companies spend a lot of time in market forecasting, product development, facility upgrading, etc. to ensure CONTINUING profits. Quick profits are a quick trip to bankruptcy in business. Businesses are much more adept at sustainability than is our government.
Answer a question for me.....What area of a companies operating expenses can the managers really control?
Originally posted by olejoedad: Quick profits are a quick trip to bankruptcy in business. Businesses are much more adept at sustainability than is our government.
Answer a question for me.....What area of a companies operating expenses can the managers really control?
Yup, and a lot of businesses are still short-sighted.
I wouldn't compare a business to government when it comes to sustainability. It is apples/oranges.
Manager? Who are we talking about? Upper level management? If so... any area. To think they can't is wrong. If I was a CEO, I could walk in to any division and just close it. Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, but that is what a CEO can do. They can also put the brakes on high pay, luxury items (planes, "retreats", etc)... They can also foster a working environment that is productive. Look at how Jobs ran Apple. That man had his finger on everything.
Originally posted by Formula88: Tax breaks aside, off shoring jobs is happening because it's cheaper to operate in other countries. That's a combination of cheaper labor, infrastructure and tax rates. If a union employee in the US gets $20/hr and a company can have it made in China paying workers $5/hr (numbers just for example), that's a large savings that continues year after year. Any tax benefit of moving is a one time hit.
And if Min wage in the US is $7.00 an hour then what is the incentive for any company to have a factory here if they can get in done for half that cost overseas?
If you're going to quote Harry Reid as your "proof" you might as well quote Mickey Mouse. He's the same guy who claimed Mitt Romney paid no taxes for years, which was patently false. He's the most dishonest person in the Senate.
Tax breaks aside, off shoring jobs is happening because it's cheaper to operate in other countries. That's a combination of cheaper labor, infrastructure and tax rates. If a union employee in the US gets $20/hr and a company can have it made in China paying workers $5/hr (numbers just for example), that's a large savings that continues year after year. Any tax benefit of moving is a one time hit.
how do you know anything about Rmoney's taxes he refused to release most years tax forms WHAT WAS HE HIDING ?
the GOP voted to keep paying CORPrats tax breaks to move offshore THAT IS WRONG YOUR GOP SUPPORTS MANY WRONG FOR THE WORKING MIDDLE CLASS IDEAS
WE NEED A WEALTH TAX NOT A FLAT TAX ON INCOME AS THAT IS A BREAK FOR THE RICH AND A BURDEN ON THE MIDDLE CLASSES BUT A TAX ON MILLIONAIRES AND UP
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
It isn't the unions that is driving companies away, it is the cheap labor. I know it is easy to blame unions, and sure, they are not perfect, but the reason companies move is to increase profits. Sure, that is good, and when they can pay someone $1 a hour to do something a US worker would get $15/hour for.... well, the writing is on the wall.
Of course, maybe we should all work for $1/hour, just to keep those jobs in the US. Who is up for it? Show of hands?
See, that's where the misconception is... cheap labor in itself is not worth the huge cost of moving an entire organization's production facility. It costs millions, even billions of dollars to do that. The cheap labor is simply an incentive. What has MADE corporations want to leave, is the fact that they are UNABLE to negotiate production due to contracts. Let's use cars as an example... if a car is flopping in sales, and simply not working... the union will FORCE the car company to continue producing that car until the contract is up... EVEN if the car isn't selling. Changing the vehicle, retooling, all that stuff... totally not allowed unless you renegotiate a new contract... and usually at great additional expense to the company beyond the actual physical and labor cost of changing over the plant. You can't operate like this... a company simply cannot survive. In overseas productions, and in right to work states, you can simply change production of a product mid-year to better suit the needs of the company's customers. The company stays profitable, and that's good for everyone. Beyond the wages that are being paid to the employees... a company typically has to pay significantly more for a union worker in "benefits", EVEN WHEN a non-union worker could be getting paid more in his paycheck WITH better benefits. The union contracts usually require exorbant healthcare costs which is simply another paycheck to the union... even when alternate health care providers can provide cheaper (and substantially better) health care.
You tie all of that in with the fact that we have the HIGHEST corporate taxes in the world... there's no reason why they should stay. The cheap labor... that's just icing on the cake.
how do you know anything about Rmoney's taxes he refused to release most years tax forms WHAT WAS HE HIDING ?
the GOP voted to keep paying CORPrats tax breaks to move offshore THAT IS WRONG YOUR GOP SUPPORTS MANY WRONG FOR THE WORKING MIDDLE CLASS IDEAS
WE NEED A WEALTH TAX NOT A FLAT TAX ON INCOME AS THAT IS A BREAK FOR THE RICH AND A BURDEN ON THE MIDDLE CLASSES BUT A TAX ON MILLIONAIRES AND UP
People will move their money around so as to keep as much of it as they are legally allowed. It's funny to hear so many people talk about how rich people who move their money around to avoid paying high taxes and call them greedy. Truth is, most if not all of those people would drastically change their tune if they were in the rich peoples' shoes. Because it then goes from being other people's money to being "my money." If you worked your butt off to get where you are, why would you not want to take steps to keep as much of it as you could instead of giving it to the IRS? Because the government is so much better with finances? Because Ray B wants to be given some of what you legitimately earned?
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: See, that's where the misconception is... cheap labor in itself is not worth the huge cost of moving an entire organization's production facility. It costs millions, even billions of dollars to do that. The cheap labor is simply an incentive. What has MADE corporations want to leave, is the fact that they are UNABLE to negotiate production due to contracts. Let's use cars as an example... if a car is flopping in sales, and simply not working... the union will FORCE the car company to continue producing that car until the contract is up... EVEN if the car isn't selling. Changing the vehicle, retooling, all that stuff... totally not allowed unless you renegotiate a new contract... and usually at great additional expense to the company beyond the actual physical and labor cost of changing over the plant. You can't operate like this... a company simply cannot survive. In overseas productions, and in right to work states, you can simply change production of a product mid-year to better suit the needs of the company's customers. The company stays profitable, and that's good for everyone. Beyond the wages that are being paid to the employees... a company typically has to pay significantly more for a union worker in "benefits", EVEN WHEN a non-union worker could be getting paid more in his paycheck WITH better benefits. The union contracts usually require exorbant healthcare costs which is simply another paycheck to the union... even when alternate health care providers can provide cheaper (and substantially better) health care.
You tie all of that in with the fact that we have the HIGHEST corporate taxes in the world... there's no reason why they should stay. The cheap labor... that's just icing on the cake.
That right there is completely untrue !
Unions have no say in what cars companies produce, only management does and only management has the final say on where they are produced. Use my Plant in Taxachusettes for an example. The company signed a contract that we would get the new minivan, 1990 Pontiac Trans Sport, Chevrolet Venture even spent millions on a new state of the art paint shop, practically a robotic paint line and so sterile you had to wear a white suit to get into it.
Yet when it came time to build that new minivan they built it someplace else and defied the union contract and everything else. Companies brake contracts all the time.
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 08-06-2014).]
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: See, that's where the misconception is... cheap labor in itself is not worth the huge cost of moving an entire organization's production facility. It costs millions, even billions of dollars to do that. The cheap labor is simply an incentive. What has MADE corporations want to leave, is the fact that they are UNABLE to negotiate production due to contracts. Let's use cars as an example... if a car is flopping in sales, and simply not working... the union will FORCE the car company to continue producing that car until the contract is up... EVEN if the car isn't selling. Changing the vehicle, retooling, all that stuff... totally not allowed unless you renegotiate a new contract... and usually at great additional expense to the company beyond the actual physical and labor cost of changing over the plant. You can't operate like this... a company simply cannot survive. In overseas productions, and in right to work states, you can simply change production of a product mid-year to better suit the needs of the company's customers. The company stays profitable, and that's good for everyone. Beyond the wages that are being paid to the employees... a company typically has to pay significantly more for a union worker in "benefits", EVEN WHEN a non-union worker could be getting paid more in his paycheck WITH better benefits. The union contracts usually require exorbant healthcare costs which is simply another paycheck to the union... even when alternate health care providers can provide cheaper (and substantially better) health care.
You tie all of that in with the fact that we have the HIGHEST corporate taxes in the world... there's no reason why they should stay. The cheap labor... that's just icing on the cake.
So, why does Apple make their products overseas? Because of corporate taxes? Nah... It is because they can pay dirt cheap labor and they can also build factories cheaper (again, dirt cheap labor).
Your comparison about cars and union forcing them to continue a line is wrong. The unions have no say in what cars are produced. The unions have contracts, that is all. The car manufacturer can stop any line and then produce a different car. They can also close factories and move employees. Blaming union workers for poor car sales and for poor products are a thing of the past. It is bad management, wrong product, etc... We call complain about parts made in China and how we want parts made in the USA. Hmm, many of those parts are made with union workers. As for "benefits", why is it people are jealous of union workers and their wages/benefits? Many places offer the same health care coverage to union employees and whitecollar workers. I am not sure where you get your facts from, but I am guessing you believe the myth of the "Cadillac healthcare benefits". Hey, if the company agrees to those terms, then blame management for agreeing to the contract. It takes two parties to sign that contract.
It is hard to convince me that a corporation can't survive because of taxes and good pay. Heaven forbid they lower CEO/management pay to something more in line with the job. Sure, it is a small amount, but management has a golden parachute and if the business survives or not, they have little concern as their future is already financially secure. Give me $5M and I will run the company for a year, and then retire. I don't have to even worry if my decisions are good, as I have all the money I need after that one year.
It isn't the unions that is driving companies away, it is the cheap labor. I know it is easy to blame unions, and sure, they are not perfect, but the reason companies move is to increase profits. Sure, that is good, and when they can pay someone $1 a hour to do something a US worker would get $15/hour for.... well, the writing is on the wall.
Of course, maybe we should all work for $1/hour, just to keep those jobs in the US. Who is up for it? Show of hands?
That's a little bit stretched. The average hourly wage in China is currently about 2.50 an hour (in US dollars.) And since this is an average that includes the country where people make less than half what the people make in the cities, I'd wager that the wage for factory workers is probably closer to 4.00 an hour.
For the past three years, Zheng has been fixing photocopy machines at various factories in China's manufacturing heartland. His monthly salary of 3,500 to 4,500 yuan ($580 -$740)
That works out to around 4.20 an hour.... That's a lot more than a dollar an hour, heck just a few years ago I was working for five buck an hour.
So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that despite the sweat shops in China, that the hourly wage is not a dollar an hour, but closer to four dollars an hour.
Yup, and a lot of businesses are still short-sighted.
I wouldn't compare a business to government when it comes to sustainability. It is apples/oranges.
Manager? Who are we talking about? Upper level management? If so... any area. To think they can't is wrong. If I was a CEO, I could walk in to any division and just close it. Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, but that is what a CEO can do. They can also put the brakes on high pay, luxury items (planes, "retreats", etc)... They can also foster a working environment that is productive. Look at how Jobs ran Apple. That man had his finger on everything.
It's probably not a good idea to try and use Jobs as an example of what to do. He was a thief and a cheat, and open about it.
So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that despite the sweat shops in China, that the hourly wage is not a dollar an hour, but closer to four dollars an hour.
Brad
at one apple factory back in 2013: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...-just-1-12-hour.html $2/hr. Sure it isn't $1/hr, but it shows you that a big corporation (with profits in the BILLIONS) is still paying cheap wages.
So, why does Apple make their products overseas? Because of corporate taxes? Nah... It is because they can pay dirt cheap labor and they can also build factories cheaper (again, dirt cheap labor).
Heh,
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder: They can also put the brakes on high pay, luxury items (planes, "retreats", etc)... They can also foster a working environment that is productive. Look at how Jobs ran Apple. That man had his finger on everything.
LMAO
quote
Your comparison about cars and union forcing them to continue a line is wrong. The unions have no say in what cars are produced. The unions have contracts, that is all. The car manufacturer can stop any line and then produce a different car. They can also close factories and move employees. Blaming union workers for poor car sales and for poor products are a thing of the past. It is bad management, wrong product, etc... We call complain about parts made in China and how we want parts made in the USA. Hmm, many of those parts are made with union workers. As for "benefits", why is it people are jealous of union workers and their wages/benefits? Many places offer the same health care coverage to union employees and whitecollar workers. I am not sure where you get your facts from, but I am guessing you believe the myth of the "Cadillac healthcare benefits". Hey, if the company agrees to those terms, then blame management for agreeing to the contract. It takes two parties to sign that contract.
It is hard to convince me that a corporation can't survive because of taxes and good pay. Heaven forbid they lower CEO/management pay to something more in line with the job. Sure, it is a small amount, but management has a golden parachute and if the business survives or not, they have little concern as their future is already financially secure. Give me $5M and I will run the company for a year, and then retire. I don't have to even worry if my decisions are good, as I have all the money I need after that one year.
Not all companies offer "golden parachutes".
Not all companies pay millions of dollars.
You talk like just being a Corporation means wealthy lol.
Yup, and a lot of businesses are still short-sighted.
I wouldn't compare a business to government when it comes to sustainability. It is apples/oranges.
Manager? Who are we talking about? Upper level management? If so... any area. To think they can't is wrong. If I was a CEO, I could walk in to any division and just close it. Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, but that is what a CEO can do. They can also put the brakes on high pay, luxury items (planes, "retreats", etc)... They can also foster a working environment that is productive. Look at how Jobs ran Apple. That man had his finger on everything.
You are forgetting two guiding principles of business....profitability and sustainability. Why would a CEO want to walk in and shut down a business unit? Are you avoiding answering, or ignoring the question intentionally?
You are forgetting two guiding principles of business....profitability and sustainability. Why would a CEO want to walk in and shut down a business unit? Are you avoiding answering, or ignoring the question intentionally?
Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean I am ignoring or avoiding the question. While there are "guiding principles" in business, it doesn't mean that those are always followed. Sometimes management/board/stockholders lose sight of what they are there to do. Plus, employees are important, because without people earning an income, they couldn't buy the products that are being sold... and the company wouldn't return a profit.
What I don't seem to grasp the concept of the thinking of some is that the only reason anyone would start up a business is to create jobs. How many people have you heard, when they come up with a great new invention, say how many jobs they'll create? Most likely few to none. Instead, they'll probably say "I'm gonna be rich!" Creating jobs is just a necessity that creates a byproduct.
You haven't answered the question, Jaski. That is why I replied to your unanswer. Still the question has been asked. Anyone else care to give it a stab?
You talk like just being a Corporation means wealthy lol.
Brad
Corporations make poor spending decisions. It doesn't mean they are wealthy. They have cash flow, which is spent on expensive items. (not all corporations, but the ones which can afford to move manufacturing to places overseas, for example). Instead of paying a good wage here in the US, they choose to move to a lower wage country. All because they can make more profits, to increase top level pay and benefits (again... a generalization).
You haven't answered the question, Jaski. That is why I replied to your unanswer. Still the question has been asked. Anyone else care to give it a stab?
I answered the question. Upper management can control anything they want. Maybe I should create a list... "... only #2 pencils from Office Max, light bulbs from Kmart....leather massage chairs from ...."
Seriously. Management can do anything they want and therefore your question is vague ... hence my answer. If you want to pick and choose, then create a list for us to talk about.
Instead of paying a good wage here in the US, they choose to move to a lower wage country. All because they can make more profits, to increase top level pay and benefits (again... a generalization).
Maybe, instead of saying "more profit," after looking at the bottom line, the company decided to move overseas to be able to make any profit at all. But that wouldn't fit into the narrative that corporations are just greedy businesses that exist for the sole purpose of taking advantage of its workers then would it?
Don't forget Nut-Cons. ray b loves to slam anyone who opposes the left view of any subject. No middle ground, no compromise.
And dogma. How can you forget dogma.
Honestly, you guys arguing with him are wasting your time. Ray is an admitted socialist. Let's face it, a person who can't recognize the contradiction in calling welfare recipients victims while demonizing those who pay it isn't capable of even remotely rational thought. Period. There's really no where to go from there.
Maybe, instead of saying "more profit," after looking at the bottom line, the company decided to move overseas to be able to make any profit at all. But that wouldn't fit into the narrative that corporations are just greedy businesses that exist for the sole purpose of taking advantage of its workers then would it?
So they can continue to turn out mediocre products, instead of investing in their company, develop new/better products which people will pay a higher price for and keep US workers employed.... yeah, sounds about right
Maybe, instead of saying "more profit," after looking at the bottom line, the company decided to move overseas to be able to make any profit at all. But that wouldn't fit into the narrative that corporations are just greedy businesses that exist for the sole purpose of taking advantage of its workers then would it?
RIGHTWING MYTH
you guys do love your myths you repeat them over and over and think that makes them TRUTH
IT DOES NOT
MOST OF YOUR DOGMA IS MYTH AND HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND IS THE MAIN REASON THE HOMELAND HAS PROBLEMS NOT THE GAYS OR THE HIPPYS THE PROBLEM IS THE BIG LIE BASED RIGHTWING MYTHS
lets start a list of failed rightwing myths in my life time
joe said there were reds under the beds [READY TO SPRING OUT AND GET YOU] THERE WERE NOT AND THE REDS IN RUSSIA [USSR] ARE GONE ALONG WITH EASTERN EURO CHINA AND VIETNAM ARE CAPITALIST NOW
the southern racist cons claimed desegregation would lead to civil war and disaster DID it or WERE THE CON'S WRONG AGAIN
NIXON era con's loved LAW & ORDER [FEDERAL POWER] WELL THEY GOT IT AND NOW THEY DO NOT LIKE IT the same federal powers
roe v wade +40 years on THE CHRISTIANS HATE CHOICE AND WANT TO CALL THEIR NO-CHOICE IDEALS PRO-LIFE IT IS NOT IT IS ABOUT CONTROL OF OTHERS
the rich are over taxed [BIG LIE] SEE Rmony's 13% tax rate or bill gates paying in 00.25% on his wealth
dereg is a good idea SEE THE 2008 CRASH AND RECESSION
WHEN AND ABOUT WHAT WAS THE ''RIGHT'' EVER CORRECT ?
I answered the question. Upper management can control anything they want. Maybe I should create a list... "... only #2 pencils from Office Max, light bulbs from Kmart....leather massage chairs from ...."
Seriously. Management can do anything they want and therefore your question is vague ... hence my answer. If you want to pick and choose, then create a list for us to talk about.
Even in a well run business, small sundry items such as you mentioned may not be as well costed as they could be, because a very low percentage of the total cost of doing business is involved. Any good management team uses several tools to track and control costs in the operation, one of them being a Pareto analysis, where expenditures are ranked from most costly to least costly (in this example anyway) to help management target large cost centers. The largest costs of doing business are scrutinized for waste and inefficiency. Its an effective way to pick low hanging fruit. In most businesses, little can be done to control costs associated with raw materials, as they are costed on the open market and based on volume of purchases. Most major corporations have been driving down energy inefficiencies for the last twenty to thirty years. Transportation costs are constantly evaluated and renegotiated. Taxes? Largely, nothing to save there other than through amortization and reinvestment. But labor? In many businesses, labor makes up 15 to 35 percent of the cost of doing business, especially considering benefits. Some monies can be realized through training, or automation, but eventually management must make tough decisions involving the labor force they employ. Remember that businesses must make a profit to stay in business and not default on their investors....including as many employees as they can retain to enable them to stay in business......and make a profit. When labor becomes too costly, whether its due to collapsing markets, government regulatory costs, employee benefit costs or union representation demands.....it is one of the very few costs of doing business that can be effectively and significantly controlled.
you guys do love your myths you repeat them over and over and think that makes them TRUTH
IT DOES NOT
MOST OF YOUR DOGMA IS MYTH AND HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND IS THE MAIN REASON THE HOMELAND HAS PROBLEMS NOT THE GAYS OR THE HIPPYS THE PROBLEM IS THE BIG LIE BASED RIGHTWING MYTHS
lets start a list of failed rightwing myths in my life time
joe said there were reds under the beds [READY TO SPRING OUT AND GET YOU] THERE WERE NOT AND THE REDS IN RUSSIA [USSR] ARE GONE ALONG WITH EASTERN EURO CHINA AND VIETNAM ARE CAPITALIST NOW
the southern racist cons claimed desegregation would lead to civil war and disaster DID it or WERE THE CON'S WRONG AGAIN
NIXON era con's loved LAW & ORDER [FEDERAL POWER] WELL THEY GOT IT AND NOW THEY DO NOT LIKE IT the same federal powers
roe v wade +40 years on THE CHRISTIANS HATE CHOICE AND WANT TO CALL THEIR NO-CHOICE IDEALS PRO-LIFE IT IS NOT IT IS ABOUT CONTROL OF OTHERS
the rich are over taxed [BIG LIE] SEE Rmony's 13% tax rate or bill gates paying in 00.25% on his wealth
dereg is a good idea SEE THE 2008 CRASH AND RECESSION
WHEN AND ABOUT WHAT WAS THE ''RIGHT'' EVER CORRECT ?
Well then, how does one argue with that? Ray, you should run for office. You have the power of persuasion! WTF does this have to do with cracking down on a PUBLIC union that have overstepped and overreached their boundries over the years?
Well then, how does one argue with that? Ray, you should run for office. You have the power of persuasion! WTF does this have to do with cracking down on a PUBLIC union that have overstepped and overreached their boundries over the years?
HAD IT REALLY?
OR IS THAT JUST ANOTHER BIG LIE ?
have you got a list like the one I just did of what exactly the union did when to who about what? or just more myths ?
How does any American worker compete with a Chinese worker when they make 2 or 4 dollars and hour?
just how does the union even come into play when more companies are nonunion then ever before yet companies are still outsourcing to china even now because why? because they get our money to do it with, tax brakes for shipping jobs overseas, by who? our own representatives who are nothing but company men themselves who are only in it for the short term just like the company CEOs who work what 5 years? Then get a golden parachute because they made short term profits, yet the jobs aren't here, the people here can't even buy their product because it still cost to much because they keep dropping workers pay to make more profit. Laying Americans off so they can have that golden parachute and the worker here, they get the shaft.
Originally posted by aceman: WTF does this have to do with cracking down on a PUBLIC union that have overstepped and overreached their boundries over the years?
Well then, how does one argue with that? Ray, you should run for office. You have the power of persuasion! WTF does this have to do with cracking down on a PUBLIC union that have overstepped and overreached their boundries over the years?
quote
Originally posted by ray b:
yes I a former civil servant know how it works first you attack one class of union and then move on to the next one
He was a thief and a cheat, and open about it. 
