The media has a crisis on their hands.... The facts don't support the myth they were trying to reinforce at the beginning of their coverage of the story. You know, that myth about how white cops are always gunning down defenseless, choirboy black youths. Interesting how the release of factual information sparked another round of violence Friday night.
The media has a crisis on their hands.... The facts don't support the myth they were trying to reinforce at the beginning of their coverage of the story. You know, that myth about how white cops are always gunning down defenseless, choirboy black youths. Interesting how the release of factual information sparked another round of violence Friday night.
They had the same crisis with Trayvon Martin. They just ignored the facts. Once again, I feel for the family wanting facts and maybe even protests/rallies are a good thing in that sense. BUT when the facts come out and start showing that the dead person is a thug and deserved what he got it's very hard for people the accept that, and even harder for the media to give up their cash cow. Then al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson who are the two biggest a racists in America latch on and do not let go until it's over.
They had the same crisis with Trayvon Martin. They just ignored the facts. Once again, I feel for the family wanting facts and maybe even protests/rallies are a good thing in that sense. BUT when the facts come out and start showing that the dead person is a thug and deserved what he got it's very hard for people the accept that, and even harder for the media to give up their cash cow. Then al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson who are the two biggest a racists in America latch on and do not let go until it's over.
I don't agree with the "he deserved what he got" part. Cops are not there to administer capital punishment. Maybe he was a "thug" (do we call them thugs because they are black? Because stealing one box of cigars hardly makes you a "thug" but whatever... I've done worse in my youthful days, I was just never caught... I was just a stupid kid doing stupid things...
Why could the cop not use pepper spray? a tazer, his knight stick? Why doe this cop and many other go straight for lethal force? And if you say "because the criminals are armed", remember one important detail that may affect you some day, so are most civilians. So an innocent civilian is one misunderstanding away from being an armed thug and then shot down "in self defense".
Meh, whatever... He stole some cigars... clearly he deserved to die... /sarcasm
I don't agree with the "he deserved what he got" part. Cops are not there to administer capital punishment. Maybe he was a "thug" (do we call them thugs because they are black? Because stealing one box of cigars hardly makes you a "thug" but whatever... I've done worse in my youthful days, I was just never caught... I was just a stupid kid doing stupid things...
Why could the cop not use pepper spray? a tazer, his knight stick? Why doe this cop and many other go straight for lethal force? And if you say "because the criminals are armed", remember one important detail that may affect you some day, so are most civilians. So an innocent civilian is one misunderstanding away from being an armed thug and then shot down "in self defense".
Meh, whatever... He stole some cigars... clearly he deserved to die... /sarcasm
Forget the cigars, though that further shows he was a a thug, but attacking a police officer and going after his gun does warrant quick immediate death. If you did that as a kid, you're lucky to be alive. I believe the police officer and immediate witnesses captured video more than the thug's buddy who was with him. Thug is a thug no matter if they are black or white, nice try bringing race into it though...
[This message has been edited by CoryFiero (edited 08-18-2014).]
The media has a crisis on their hands.... The facts don't support the myth they were trying to reinforce at the beginning of their coverage of the story. You know, that myth about how white cops are always gunning down defenseless, choirboy black youths. Interesting how the release of factual information sparked another round of violence Friday night.
When people have an agenda, it's hard to accept information that doesn't fit the agenda.
Having said that, I lost my nephew, due to unrelated causes. Accepting his death was difficult. There was no shooting, no one to blame, and no racist card to play. Still difficult. My mind still expects to see him. I still look forward to sharing things with him. I'll never get to teachhim to drive, never go to his college graduation, never go hunting or fishing with him.
How much more difficult, had my nephew been a thug, or had there been a shooting, or whatever? How much hate would I have if I felt entitled?
Originally posted by tshark: How much more difficult, had my nephew been a thug, or had there been a shooting, or whatever? How much hate would I have if I felt entitled?
And if the media and racists like Jackson and Sharpton were rallying behind this as their cause... Tough stuff and you can understand why people are getting caught up not accepting facts. Instead they will ignore or not believe the facts and use other things like "he only stole cigars" or "he just had skittles and iced tea" as misdirection.
They had the same crisis with Trayvon Martin. They just ignored the facts. Once again, I feel for the family wanting facts and maybe even protests/rallies are a good thing in that sense. BUT when the facts come out and start showing that the dead person is a thug and deserved what he got it's very hard for people the accept that, and even harder for the media to give up their cash cow. Then al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson who are the two biggest a racists in America latch on and do not let go until it's over.
I agree. Facts may or may not support, especially since the 2 autopsies apparently conflict, but it would seem that the officer had some justification. That almost made me sick, admiting that about the police.
For anyone who has seen the movie Remember the Titans, shouldn't Denzel's character be telling sharpton & jackson that they're crippling the black people?
Things would all calm down there if they got an F5 tornado making a direct hit on downtown Ferguson, id even be happy with a 2 mile wide sinkhole about 1/2 mile deep.
Forget the cigars, though that further shows he was a a thug, but attacking a police officer and going after his gun does warrant quick immediate death. If you did that as a kid, you're lucky to be alive. I believe the police officer and immediate witnesses captured video more than the thug's buddy who was with him. Thug is a thug no matter if they are black or white, nice try bringing race into it though...
Lets think this through for a sec... Does a police office not keep their weapon secured? And if it was not secured then it was drawn right? And if you are unarmed, at close range, and a weapon is drawn at you, what is your instinctual reaction?
Mine would be to grab push or try and control the weapon. You are being shot, survival instincts kick in. I doubt very much that he charged an officer with a gun drawn. I think he was desperately trying to save his own life.
Was he a criminal? From what I've seen, he was at least on that day. But a thug? Sounds like the same tactics the media is using the sensationalize the story.
I'm not taking sides as to whom is right or wrong. I think both sides played this out horribly and both parties could of prevented this from ending the way it did.. But now there is a bigger problem at hand, heck, this thread is turning into Ferguson... Heck! If it were possible to loot on PFF I bet you it would be going down right now.. Cliff will have to set a forum curfew.
The media has a crisis on their hands.... The facts don't support the myth they were trying to reinforce at the beginning of their coverage of the story. You know, that myth about how white cops are always gunning down defenseless, choirboy black youths. Interesting how the release of factual information sparked another round of violence Friday night.
We could simplify this. Officer shoots citizen. Assuming we can all agree to this as a basic fact that won't start another war on here, does this get the media any sales? Does this push anyone's agenda?
If that citizen is suddenly black, defenseless, and trying to surrender, and the cop is white...sounds like a movie script, like the cheap one from taco bell qith him and a rookie sidekick that they made as a girl. Anyway, next thing, the cop will be a rich kid with a hostory of racism. Maybe a special on his shootings in the past. I'm being insensitive, but it sounds like a circus. Everything is exaggerated. This is a tragedy, in more ways than one.
Lets think this through for a sec... Does a police office not keep their weapon secured? And if it was not secured then it was drawn right? And if you are unarmed, at close range, and a weapon is drawn at you, what is your instinctual reaction?
Mine would be to grab push or try and control the weapon. You are being shot, survival instincts kick in. I doubt very much that he charged an officer with a gun drawn. I think he was desperately trying to save his own life.
Please tell me how long you were a police officer?
Edit: This was an unfair and snarky question. I can tell you were never a police officer.
I was a policer officer, and know about weapon retention, and escalation of force, and how stupid criminals and thugs can be when you are trying to put them in a cage (the back seat of your car).
To answer your other question. If at close range a POLICE OFFICER draws his weapon on me, I stop. I don't put my hand on his weapon, and I don't charge him. There are so many muddied "facts" so forgive me if this has been either proven false or discounted, but was the first shot fired in the police car?
[This message has been edited by CoryFiero (edited 08-18-2014).]
Lets think this through for a sec... Does a police office not keep their weapon secured? And if it was not secured then it was drawn right? And if you are unarmed, at close range, and a weapon is drawn at you, what is your instinctual reaction?
Mine would be to grab push or try and control the weapon. You are being shot, survival instincts kick in. I doubt very much that he charged an officer with a gun drawn. I think he was desperately trying to save his own life.
Was he a criminal? From what I've seen, he was at least on that day. But a thug? Sounds like the same tactics the media is using the sensationalize the story.
I'm not taking sides as to whom is right or wrong. I think both sides played this out horribly and both parties could of prevented this from ending the way it did.. But now there is a bigger problem at hand, heck, this thread is turning into Ferguson... Heck! If it were possible to loot on PFF I bet you it would be going down right now.. Cliff will have to set a forum curfew.
I think someone made the looting comment before. There was a comment about a thread vacancy, or something like that. Actually, the local web sites were already looted, supposedly as part of the Ferguson incident. Food for throught: it was planned prior to the shooting, as was which businesses would be hit.
(do we call them thugs because they are black? Because stealing one box of cigars hardly makes you a "thug" but whatever...
thug: a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.
Yup, stealing a box of cigars would qualify. Not much street cred in it unless he had ta pop a cap in somebody's a** to get 'em tho'. Thug, punk, perp, suspect... I know, "attractive and successful African American." Would that work? I think punk would be more accurate.
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punk: something or someone worthless or unimportant. a young ruffian; hoodlum. an inexperienced youth.
Of course, all of that is irrelevant to whether or not the shooting was justified.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 08-18-2014).]
None of my posts have been hateful. Some people may disagree with what I post, while others may be oversensitive. I don't have to agree with their posts, either. I'm beginning to understand why so many people don't get on here. Many innocent posts turn into flame wars, that often have nothing to do with the subject. Personal attacks, namecalling, etc run rampant. Some people apparently just post hateful, viscious comments. Some people just look to find a molehill to turn into a mountain. Yes, I'm partly poking fun at myself.
Obviously, the hate and attacks here are representative of the larger demographic. Hence, the problems we have in places like Ferguson. And here, too, petty squabbles will allow someone's afenda to rule the day.
For the rest, race is only an issue for people who make it an issue. If person A's primary interaction with person B is negative, eventually person A will just ignore/avoid person B. If this is extended to a group of people--however you want to classify the group--same result. If person/group B wants to change their perception by person/group A, it gets more difficult over time. However, if group B continues their negative interaction, they will be given a label that describes them as a group.
Again, you can be part of the problem, or part of the solution. The first step in solving any problem is to identify the problem.
Honest question; From what you know of me (for all you know I could be a 50-something fattazz setting at a computer spewing "opinions" 10 hours a day), do I hate?
Honest question; From what you know of me (for all you know I could be a 50-something fattazz setting at a computer spewing "opinions" 10 hours a day), do I hate?
No. Cant say that about you. It would be a stretch by using your posts on PFF. But we can still disagree on subject matter.
I don't think you hate. At least not openly. I think you take pleasure in poking your thumb in peoples' eyes. I think you create controversy where there is none, for the purpose of attempting to prove a point (whatever that point may be.) "Holier than thou" attitude? I dunno. Whatever. Just a perception.
(You'll notice that I've pretty much stayed out of the discussion at hand. Nobody is going to change anyone else's mind. I learn a lot more by just watching.)
I don't think you hate. At least not openly. I think you take pleasure in poking your thumb in peoples' eyes. I think you create controversy where there is none, for the purpose of attempting to prove a point (whatever that point may be.) "Holier than thou" attitude? I dunno. Whatever. Just a perception.
(You'll notice that I've pretty much stayed out of the discussion at hand. Nobody is going to change anyone else's mind. I learn a lot more by just watching.)
"He say, good idea" sorry forget what movie this quote is from, but it was a good movie.
I don't think you hate. At least not openly. I think you take pleasure in poking your thumb in peoples' eyes. I think you create controversy where there is none, for the purpose of attempting to prove a point (whatever that point may be.) "Holier than thou" attitude? I dunno. Whatever. Just a perception.
(You'll notice that I've pretty much stayed out of the discussion at hand. Nobody is going to change anyone else's mind. I learn a lot more by just watching.)
I wish I'd stayed out, but it was a concern to me personally, and not as a distant thing. It is a sad day when a simple post of one's observations and opinions leads to a personal attack, name calling, etc.
I should've noticed that most of the who's who didn't get involved, probably because they know that things will degrade as happened. If we can't behave like civilized adults here, the world is in sorry shape.
I wish I'd stayed out, but it was a concern to me personally, and not as a distant thing. It is a sad day when a simple post of one's observations and opinions leads to a personal attack, name calling, etc.
I should've noticed that most of the who's who didn't get involved, probably because they know that things will degrade as happened. If we can't behave like civilized adults here, the world is in sorry shape.
It almost all started with you...
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Originally posted by tshark:
Either way lethal force is apparently the only effective one. I would leave the bodies where they fell. Perhaps the message would get through. I wouldn't call any medical people. I also would shoot to disable, probably stomach or chest. No kill shots. In humane? Perhaps. It may save lives. War tactics are used in war. Make no mistake. This is war. We are fighting for our way of life, to be free and American, to prevent either group (government or people) from enslaving the other.
It was just crazy talk. And yes, that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. It quickly devolves after that as people agree and disagree with it.
I have a question for the police supporters:
Will the police be held responsible for the illegal tactics and shows of force that they have committed, or will we focus solely on the crimes that the civilians non-police civilians have committed?
I think the rioters and looters should be punished under full penalty of the law, as fitting to their crimes. I also think the police should be held responsible for their crimes, and I think we should heavily consider taking away the heavy militarization that the police is capable of. Were you aware that officers unfamiliar with this level of behavior were allowed to act and do as they have? The leadership of the police was lacking for far too long. I am hoping that the National Guard can come in as a third party, end the rioting, end the police oppression, and we can move on and force some policy and leadership changes.
Originally posted by theBDub: Will the police be held responsible for the illegal tactics and shows of force that they have committed, or will we focus solely on the crimes that the civilians non-police civilians have committed?
I think the rioters and looters should be punished under full penalty of the law, as fitting to their crimes. I also think the police should be held responsible for their crimes, and I think we should heavily consider taking away the heavy militarization that the police is capable of. Were you aware that officers unfamiliar with this level of behavior were allowed to act and do as they have? The leadership of the police was lacking for far too long. I am hoping that the National Guard can come in as a third party, end the rioting, end the police oppression, and we can move on and force some policy and leadership changes.
You can characterize what I said how you choose. It is a horrible thing, but, as I said, may save lives. Wouldn't you rather everyone say, ”anything but that!! Let's find a SOLUTION!” ”The only thing necessary for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing.” Somehow, I don't think holding hands and singing Kumbaya will stop the rioters. If someone has used lethal force, and is using lethal force to kill defenseless people out of (you tell me why), force is the only effective method. How many people do you want to be killed? How much innocent blood? Note that caning in Singapore is rare, and usually only outsiders, because the locals don't want to be caned. If you've seen it, you'll understand why. One caning every so often usually gets the point across. I can't bear to use a whip on a horse, because I've seen that a whip can do to a person. A leaded whip cuts skin like a hot knife does butter. I don't want these things I've seen to come to the US.
I am not a police supporter; however, if the rioters stop soon enough, the police may still be held accountable, depending on the extent of the collateral damage.
Those who have committed crimes in the Ferguson situation ”should be punished under full penalty of the law, as fitting to their crimes” regardless of uniform or not; however, some sentences may be reduced or suspended for the officers, given special circumstances.
The police ase poorly trained for many situations, including this one. There was no leadership, which was one of the problems. No one understood the situation, thought through the options, made a decision, and stuck by it. Therefore, no leadership. There were many other mistakes, as well. Most likely, those in charge won't admit fault or punish themselves. They will say that they made the best of a bad situation.
Policy and leadership changes happen at the voting booth--if there is a good candidate to vote for. History will repeat itself.
[This message has been edited by tshark (edited 02-21-2015).]
You can characterize what I said how you choose. It is a horrible thing, but, as I said, may save lives. Wouldn't you rather everyone say, ”anything but that!! Let's find a SOLUTION!” Trust me. Once you've seen a friend die this way, or anyone hang, it has a dampening effect. Hanging is just brutal. I had to watch several, back-to-back, without averting or closing my eyes. I would almost have rather traded places. ”The only thing necessary for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing.” Somehow, I don't think holding hands and singing Kumbaya will stop the rioters. If someone has used lethal force, and is using lethal force to kill defenseless people out of (you tell me why), force is the only effective method. How many people do you want to be killed? How much innocent blood? Note that caning in Singapore is rare, and usually only outsiders, because the locals don't want to be caned. If you've seen it, you'll understand why. One caning every so often usually gets the point across. I can't bear to use a whip on a horse, because I've seen that a whip can do to a person. A leaded whip cuts skin like a hot knife does butter. I don't want these things I've seen to come to the US.
I am not a police supporter; however, if the rioters stop soon enough, the police may still be held accountable, depending on the extent of the collateral damage.
Those who have committed crimes in the Ferguson situation ”should be punished under full penalty of the law, as fitting to their crimes” regardless of uniform or not; however, some sentences may be reduced or suspended for the officers, given special circumstances.
The police ase poorly trained for many situations, including this one. There was no leadership, which was one of the problems. No one understood the situation, thought through the options, made a decision, and stuck by it. Therefore, no leadership. There were many other mistakes, as well. Most likely, those in charge won't admit fault or punish themselves. They will say that they made tv ratings he best of a bad situation.
Policy and leadership changes happen at the voting booth--if there is a good candidate to vote for. History will repeat itself.
Sorry you feel this way. I am a Police supporter and have to hang my head low when they screw up. They are people too and do make mistakes. That being said, uniform or not, we are ALL innocent till proven guilty. This "case" is a LONG way from closure and people have wrongfully judged and convicted people before the evidence has been collected.
Things would all calm down there if they got an F5 tornado making a direct hit on downtown Ferguson, id even be happy with a 2 mile wide sinkhole about 1/2 mile deep.
I just got the other side of this. An F5 tornado? Calm? Tongue in cheek? 1/2 mile deep is a bit extreme.
BTW, downtown Ferguson has some really nice places. You should try whistlestop (after the riots are over). They have a cake. There are some nice parks. Take a walk, sit on the grass (when the rain stops).
Sorry you feel this way. I am a Police supporter and have to hang my head low when they screw up. They are people too and do make mistakes. That being said, uniform or not, we are ALL innocent till proven guilty. This "case" is a LONG way from closure and people have wrongfully judged and convicted people before the evidence has been collected.
Yes, they are people, and make mistakes. That having been said, they aren't above the law. Tell the police the innocent until proven guilty bit. Sometimes, it's hard to draw the line between the crooks and the cops. When I can't feel safe leaving my child in the protection of a police officer, we have a problem.
I haven't convicted anyone. Crimes have been committed. Theft, property destruction, brutality. Perhaps other things. It's not up to me to determine who or what.
I just found this link on The Blaze.com. I don't know if it is verified yet or not. But, if it is true this will put a whole different spin on this problem. We will see in the long run what actually happened.
Originally posted by theBDub: Will the police be held responsible for the illegal tactics and shows of force that they have committed, or will we focus solely on the crimes that the civilians non-police civilians have committed?
Will Obama and Holder be held responsible for the illegal acts they have committed since they have held their respective offices?
Tell the police the innocent until proven guilty bit. Sometimes, it's hard to draw the line between the crooks and the cops. When I can't feel safe leaving my child in the protection of a police officer, we have a problem.
Not hard for me, sorry you feel that way. This case is clear cut racism, and it is not the COPs that screwed up this time. Playing life long perpetual victim gets old after a while.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 08-19-2014).]
Out of all the forums I'm on. Facebook included... PFF O/T section has the most hate... I really hope it does not represent a larger demographic...
I don't think so. But them being a smaller minority is disturbing enough.
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It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
I know that quote will be controversial because of its source but I completely agree with it regarding some members here.
Having said that, I don't get why someone can't use the sidewalk, especially when a cop asks them to (in a respectful way, of course!). IMO, both sides did little (during the incident or afterwards) to stop escalating the situation. But I think that a trained police officer should be the wiser and calmer part in any such confrontation. If they can't do that, they have the wrong job. IMO, that particular cop should be tried and, if found guilty, fired and imprisoned for homicide.
How quickly we forget how sending in the national guard can escalate a protest into a riot or fire fight.
Kent State shootings
The Kent State shootings (also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre)[2][3][4] occurred at Kent State University in the US city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.[5][6]
Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the Cambodian Campaign, which President Richard Nixon announced during a television address on April 30. Other students who were shot had been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance.[7][8]
Sending in the national guard is never a good thing !
Then we have conflicting reports by neighbors who said the kid in this case was charging the cop, but no one here even thinks that is possible. They just side with the blacks, like the rev who have their own agenda, start a race war !
is it possible the cop shot the kid for no reason? Sure, Is it possible the kid was charging the cop? Sure, Is it possible the cop was in the right? Sure, Is it possible the cop was in the right? Sure,
But no one is ever going to accept the facts unless it has more black people saying the cop was in the right than the other way. OI think the main problem is they have way to many kids doing the rioting, stealing, and shooting at the cops for no other reason than to get back at the cops for shooting a black man. They know what they know, they are always the oppressed.
Now a nice little story or 2 for those who say it is always the blacks who are oppressed.
as a teen in south Worcester, MA I was in a friends car trying to teach another friend how to drive a standard who because had no experience driving a standard, but it was like 2 AM, he ran a red light. We got stopped, the cop put me under the exhaust of the running car and threatened to shoot me if I moved, even after I asked him to shut the engine off. Cop was white, I am white and so was my friend.
another time, I was going around the corner from my house as a teen again in Worcester to meet a friend as I turned the corner I say him being shot by another kid, both were white.
