Originally posted by Purple86GT: Out of all the forums I'm on. Facebook included... PFF O/T section has the most hate... I really hope it does not represent a larger demographic...
This is very suprising. I think perhaps you interpret conversation about controvercial topics as "hate". There are probably a few members who are overtly prejudice or racist if thats what you mean. Alot of other forums I've seen are full of jerks and pricks and they just agree enough that they keep it jokey and dont argue with eachother. They also dont talk about thigs that are difficult. Facebook doesnt count, peoples moms see that stuff
as a teen in south Worcester, MA I was in a friends car trying to teach another friend how to drive a standard who because had no experience driving a standard, but it was like 2 AM, he ran a red light. We got stopped, the cop put me under the exhaust of the running car and threatened to shoot me if I moved, even after I asked him to shut the engine off. Cop was white, I am white and so was my friend.
How quickly we forget how sending in the national guard can escalate a protest into a riot or fire fight.
Kent State shootings
The Kent State shootings (also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre)[2][3][4] occurred at Kent State University in the US city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.[5][6]
Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the Cambodian Campaign, which President Richard Nixon announced during a television address on April 30. Other students who were shot had been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance.[7][8]
This is very suprising. I think perhaps you interpret conversation about controvercial topics as "hate". There are probably a few members who are overtly prejudice or racist if thats what you mean. Alot of other forums I've seen are full of jerks and pricks and they just agree enough that they keep it jokey and dont argue with eachother. They also dont talk about thigs that are difficult. Facebook doesnt count, peoples moms see that stuff
No, I wish that were the case but no.. PFF Members talking about killing, punishing and branding people they do not even know. Talking about eliminating an entire race our country, avoiding a race when they are walking down the street, or preparing your firearm because someone of a particular race and wearing a particular piece of clothing... Yep... This is here on PFF... and IMO... Not acceptable, not in today's society...
You can characterize what I said how you choose. It is a horrible thing, but, as I said, may save lives. Wouldn't you rather everyone say, ”anything but that!! Let's find a SOLUTION!” Trust me. Once you've seen a friend die this way, or anyone hang, it has a dampening effect. Hanging is just brutal. I had to watch several, back-to-back, without averting or closing my eyes. I would almost have rather traded places. ”The only thing necessary for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing.” Somehow, I don't think holding hands and singing Kumbaya will stop the rioters. If someone has used lethal force, and is using lethal force to kill defenseless people out of (you tell me why), force is the only effective method. How many people do you want to be killed? How much innocent blood? Note that caning in Singapore is rare, and usually only outsiders, because the locals don't want to be caned. If you've seen it, you'll understand why. One caning every so often usually gets the point across. I can't bear to use a whip on a horse, because I've seen that a whip can do to a person. A leaded whip cuts skin like a hot knife does butter. I don't want these things I've seen to come to the US.
I am not a police supporter; however, if the rioters stop soon enough, the police may still be held accountable, depending on the extent of the collateral damage.
Those who have committed crimes in the Ferguson situation ”should be punished under full penalty of the law, as fitting to their crimes” regardless of uniform or not; however, some sentences may be reduced or suspended for the officers, given special circumstances.
The police ase poorly trained for many situations, including this one. There was no leadership, which was one of the problems. No one understood the situation, thought through the options, made a decision, and stuck by it. Therefore, no leadership. There were many other mistakes, as well. Most likely, those in charge won't admit fault or punish themselves. They will say that they made the best of a bad situation.
Policy and leadership changes happen at the voting booth--if there is a good candidate to vote for. History will repeat itself.
Your past gives you insight and a different perspective but can also leave you jaded and callous. I think something people are concerned about is due process, and of course there are some looking for signs of racism even when there are none. Remember that you havent posted much relative to others here and we can only build an opinion of who you are based on what we read you post. Meaning what you say is key. I dont mean to sound preachy. That said, I am never as clear as I'd like to be, it has kept me from posting many times.
Your past gives you insight and a different perspective but can also leave you jaded and callous. I think something people are concerned about is due process, and of course there are some looking for signs of racism even when there are none. Remember that you havent posted much relative to others here and we can only build an opinion of who you are based on what we read you post. Meaning what you say is key. I dont mean to sound preachy. That said, I am never as clear as I'd like to be, it has kept me from posting many times.
True, I'm still a newbie here. It's sometimes easier to be callous to things you haven't seen. I appreciate the advise.
As for posts, it goes both ways. I'm new to you, but you're new to me, also. Opinions form on both sides. If something is unclear, all we have to do is ask each other. That's what civilized human beings do, especially in this political environment. Regardless, I won't be treated like dirt, no matter how many posts someone has, how old they are, or who knows them. Of course, if veterans here treat the newbies this way, this forum will continue to whither. Do we have a rule that, once someone has tenure, they can be post whatever they want with impugnity? Perhaps, if someone has 100 times the posts as another member, the first member is entitled to be 100 times as rude?
Some members seem to have a lot of posts, but the predominance of those posts seems to be, if not hateful, argumentative. Or at least the recent posts. Is there a different set of rules for those members with more posts?
I don't want to censor everything, and the PC crap has gone overboard, but some common courtesy goes a long way.
One of the things my past gives me, is perspective. As pertains to Ferguson, I keep seeing the same things happen, people try the same the same ”solutions” that I've seen fail every time, yet these people expect different results, have little or no experience, and are insulted that everyone doesn't agree with them. Disagree with me. Go ahead. I haven't seen a solution yet, so come up with something I haven't thought of. Nothing has worked, thus far.
Originally posted by tshark: If something is unclear, all we have to do is ask each other. That's what civilized human beings do, especially in this political environment.
I agree.
quote
Regardless, I won't be treated like dirt, no matter how many posts someone has, how old they are, or who knows them. Of course, if veterans here treat the newbies this way, this forum will continue to whither. Do we have a rule that, once someone has tenure, they can be post whatever they want with impugnity? Perhaps, if someone has 100 times the posts as another member, the first member is entitled to be 100 times as rude? .
No, that would be silly. But we are talking about people and trends can be noticed. These are basically just my observations. My point was consequences could be more swift and thoughtless when less people have seen the positive side, or helpful side , or funny side of a member (or knows them in person). I dont think veterans hold people to different standards but as a matter of fact the same standard. Too you have to have a thick skin and also know there may be some who just like to get a rise out of you. Its a real place, with a real wide variety of people. People posting and people just lurking. If you are being sarcastic its a good idea to say you are somehow. Anyway I'll shut up about it now.
Originally posted by tshark: One of the things my past gives me, is perspective. As pertains to Ferguson, I keep seeing the same things happen, people try the same the same ”solutions” that I've seen fail every time, yet these people expect different results, have little or no experience, and are insulted that everyone doesn't agree with them. Disagree with me. Go ahead. I haven't seen a solution yet, so come up with something I haven't thought of. Nothing has worked, thus far.
BIG picture. I know what works but we can’t control it for everyone. It usually involves the individuals looking back and seeing what is lost. Parents need to be parents and love their kids and eachother and see how this matters. That would solve most of it. How to do that? Its up to each family and each person. Its up to how we treat our neighbors, all kinds of stuff. Actions need consequences too, for all ages. Punish crime. Reward hard work. etc. (I know ..vague) We've screwed things up pretty bad to get to this point. Many people dont want to hear real answers. They dont want to try. For many changing it and stopping it seems too daunting, talking about it becomes "hate speech" many just move to where the problem seems less so they dont have to deal with it.
I just read a comment on a Yahoo article that quoted Bill Cosby's comments on how the Black culture has not helped themselves now that they have equal opportunity. If someone with more technical expertise than me could post his comments that would be great. It appears now that this shooting will turn out to be justified, albeit it would have been better if the police officer would have used a taser. Listen to the lady caller quoted on CNN's website that tells the officers side of the story. Brown slugged the officer thru the trucks window, slammed the door against his body when he tried to get out of the truck and also grabbed his gun causing it to discharge. He then started walking away and when the officer got out of his truck and told him to stop he started taunting the officer and then charged at the officer like a madman on drugs.
I just read a comment on a Yahoo article that quoted Bill Cosby's comments on how the Black culture has not helped themselves now that they have equal opportunity. If someone with more technical expertise than me could post his comments that would be great. It appears now that this shooting will turn out to be justified, albeit it would have been better if the police officer would have used a taser. Listen to the lady caller quoted on CNN's website that tells the officers side of the story. Brown slugged the officer thru the trucks window, slammed the door against his body when he tried to get out of the truck and also grabbed his gun causing it to discharge. He then started walking away and when the officer got out of his truck and told him to stop he started taunting the officer and then charged at the officer like a madman on drugs.
Are you talking about this one?
Couldn't have said it better myself ! My own grandkids who by the way are white but live in a predominantly black neighborhood talk the same way. Idiots all of them. And you know the worst part is that we are now calling these slang terms words, WTF !
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 08-19-2014).]
Disagree with me. Go ahead. I haven't seen a solution yet, so come up with something I haven't thought of. Nothing has worked, thus far.
There is no doubt in my mind that you have already seen the answers to the problems in Ferguson. They are the same answers that work around the World. This maybe why you say that you have seen the same ideas over and over? AND the problems in Ferguson are not unique, they are also the same problems that every Country has to deal with. Education in America is free and so is offering yourselves to help others. Some people in this World just dont care to be in school or a productive member of society. Chances are, if you drop out of school you will have a hard life. Going back to school gets harder and harder as the years go by. A person in desperate situation is going to get frustrated sooner or latter and resort to acting out against the society that they chose not to engage in. Bottom line, if those people dont want to engage or participate in society they will be dommed to struggle with or against it. In this case they are a lost cause until they choose on their own to change. Focus on the kids to reach them and educate them in attempts to prevent them from falling away.
BIG picture. I know what works but we can’t control it for everyone. It usually involves the individuals looking back and seeing what is lost. Parents need to be parents and love their kids and eachother and see how this matters. That would solve most of it. How to do that? Its up to each family and each person. Its up to how we treat our neighbors, all kinds of stuff. Actions need consequences too, for all ages. Punish crime. Reward hard work. etc. (I know ..vague) We've screwed things up pretty bad to get to this point. Many people dont want to hear real answers. They dont want to try. For many changing it and stopping it seems too daunting, talking about it becomes "hate speech" many just move to where the problem seems less so they dont have to deal with it.
I agree. It seems that we spend our time dealing with symptoms, rather than the problems causing the symptoms. Consequences (or lack thereof) are a big thing. Yes, it starts when we are small. Perhaps too much TV, or not enough hugs, or not enough swats, or a lack of rules. OR, too little TV, too many hugs, too many swats, and too many rules.
No, I wish that were the case but no.. PFF Members talking about killing, punishing and branding people they do not even know. Talking about eliminating an entire race our country, avoiding a race when they are walking down the street, or preparing your firearm because someone of a particular race and wearing a particular piece of clothing... Yep... This is here on PFF... and IMO... Not acceptable, not in today's society...
Facebook isn't a fair comparison because it only shows you a very small percentage of posts by your "friends" and only the things that fit it's view of your beliefs and what you like to see.
The things you say are only here, or mainly here are everywhere as far as I've seen, perhaps you are just reading too much into the posts of a few people?
True, I'm still a newbie here. It's sometimes easier to be callous to things you haven't seen. I appreciate the advise.
As for posts, it goes both ways. I'm new to you, but you're new to me, also. Opinions form on both sides. If something is unclear, all we have to do is ask each other. That's what civilized human beings do, especially in this political environment. Regardless, I won't be treated like dirt, no matter how many posts someone has, how old they are, or who knows them. Of course, if veterans here treat the newbies this way, this forum will continue to whither. Do we have a rule that, once someone has tenure, they can be post whatever they want with impugnity? Perhaps, if someone has 100 times the posts as another member, the first member is entitled to be 100 times as rude?
Some members seem to have a lot of posts, but the predominance of those posts seems to be, if not hateful, argumentative. Or at least the recent posts. Is there a different set of rules for those members with more posts?
I don't want to censor everything, and the PC crap has gone overboard, but some common courtesy goes a long way.
One of the things my past gives me, is perspective. As pertains to Ferguson, I keep seeing the same things happen, people try the same the same ”solutions” that I've seen fail every time, yet these people expect different results, have little or no experience, and are insulted that everyone doesn't agree with them. Disagree with me. Go ahead. I haven't seen a solution yet, so come up with something I haven't thought of. Nothing has worked, thus far.
OK, first off before it becomes an issue. PFF is not an "everyone is equal" place. This means that the people who have been here longer do have some freedoms a new guy doesn't. This is the same as you and I going over to a friends house. You just met him last week, I've known him for 10 years. We both show up, I knock and go in, you wait for him to let you in. I go see if there is a beer in the fridge, you wait until something is offered. This is because we got to know each other, and what was acceptable. I didn't just walk into his house the first day, I didn't just grab a beer without asking.
On PFF it works the same way. Many of us have been here for 10 years or more (I think my 10 yr anniversary is this month.) We've sat and talked on the forum, and sometimes at our actual houses. I can call some members and talk to them in person if needed.. (not that I do a lot, I don't like phones.) People get comfortable with each other, we know most of each others "issues" and ticks. We have became a family over time, even if it's dysfunctional at times.
You, and other new guys cannot expect the same treatment. We don't know each other really at all. After some time that will change, as it has with most people on the forum.
So yea, short answer. People who have been on PFF for a long time get a pass for saying stupid things... To a point. There have been cases (Jazzman) where a member has been loved for years, and goes too far. It sucks when that happens.
Some members have changes over the years too, and are "riding" on the coattails of their previous posts where they were much nicer.
There is no doubt in my mind that you have already seen the answers to the problems in Ferguson. They are the same answers that work around the World. This maybe why you say that you have seen the same ideas over and over? AND the problems in Ferguson are not unique, they are also the same problems that every Country has to deal with. Education in America is free and so is offering yourselves to help others. Some people in this World just dont care to be in school or a productive member of society. Chances are, if you drop out of school you will have a hard life. Going back to school gets harder and harder as the years go by. A person in desperate situation is going to get frustrated sooner or latter and resort to acting out against the society that they chose not to engage in. Bottom line, if those people dont want to engage or participate in society they will be dommed to struggle with or against it. In this case they are a lost cause until they choose on their own to change. Focus on the kids to reach them and educate them in attempts to prevent them from falling away.
Yes and no. Yes, I've seen things that work. No, there doesn't be a solution to getting anyone to try it here. Instead, I see the things that haven't worked being tried.
Facebook isn't a fair comparison because it only shows you a very small percentage of posts by your "friends" and only the things that fit it's view of your beliefs and what you like to see.
The things you say are only here, or mainly here are everywhere as far as I've seen, perhaps you are just reading too much into the posts of a few people?
Brad
Facebook is just like this forum just a different platform. For example, PFF is on Facebook. Once you subscribe to that feed, you get all the posts, not just the ones I like.
I don't think I'm reading too much into anyone's message. Many here are blunt in write in plain English with no attempt to hide the message. Many posts about "blow them all up and let God sort them out" or one of my favorites: "I keep a hand on my gun when I walk near a black guy with a hoodie". Nope, I don't read too much into the message, it is clear as day.
Yes and no. Yes, I've seen things that work. No, there doesn't be a solution to getting anyone to try it here. Instead, I see the things that haven't worked being tried.
Answer the question. Will the police be held responsible for their actions?
I believe I answered that question on page 2 of this thread:
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
However, if in fact the officer did give chase to an unarmed suspect and shot such suspect while the suspect was either running away, doing nothing, or surrendering - then that would certainly change things and that would certainly not give the officer justification to use deadly force.
Do you really think the officer is going to get a fair trial or even a fair grand jury review of the case? What do you think the members of the grand jury are going to do when they realize the media is going to make public their names? Do you honestly think anyone sitting on that grand jury tasked with the duty of deciding whether or not this officer should be brought up on criminal charges is going to make a fair and impartial decision - knowing that if they make an unpopular decision they too could become targets of the mob?
What difference at this point does it make anyway? The media and certain groups of people have already made up their minds about this case. In their eyes, the officer is guilty of murder and no amount of evidence that may come to light proving otherwise will change their minds. That's because we have a certain political party in this country who makes it their policy to pit groups of people against other groups of people, fomenting hate, & dividing the nation. The irony is this has happened before more than once in this country and the same political party has been responsible for it every time. The only difference between the past and present is the democrats are now USING their constituents to do their dirty work for them - knowing it will never improve the lives or circumstances of those very people they represent. But yet those very people being used keep voting for the same politicians who hold the proverbial boots on their neck.
Those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it (or at least doomed to let it repeat).
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-19-2014).]
Originally posted by Purple86GT: one of my favorites: "I keep a hand on my gun when I walk near a black guy with a hoodie".
I will agree, that is disturbing. In general, young guys do not get overly stupid by themselves, I rarely give a second thought to anybody on their own but, I look them in the face and look for the look. The crazy guy, I want a conflict, mostly white guys that look like they use meth. In a group, young men get much more dangerous. 2 or more hispanics with MS13 branding puts me on big alert. Stance, walk, look on their face, groups or alone, the type of dress, what they are doing are all part of determining if someone is a likely threat. I love the Will Smith Men in Black part where he leaves the Alians alone and shoots the little girl. What looks like a threat? Why? I am on a big alert in Oakland because of the reputation of Oakland. I think the murder rate may be worse than Chicago.
Originally posted by theBDub: I have a question for the police supporters:
Will the police be held responsible for the illegal tactics and shows of force that they have committed, or will we focus solely on the crimes that the civilians non-police civilians have committed?
.
List the crimes? Have any charges been filed? It is a good idea to know what we are supposed to pass judgement on. Are they real legal crime or just "crimes" against your opinion?
I thank Steve for his post about Ohio. I wasn't familiar with that incident.
Examples: 1. The National Guard. They are for war--not peace. 2. Having people who don't know what they're doing be in charge 3. Letting the media run with non-factual stories, without contest. Heck, letting the media or any outsiders in. 4. Politicians getting involved. 5. No child left behind 6. A lack of communication. Town halls are a great way to express issues & resolve them. 7. Destroying businesses, and expecting jobs to result 8. Bringing in hateful & racist windbags 9. Straw man arguments, such as Michael Brown 10. Entitlement programs 11. Anything that divides society into racial groups 12. Government overinvolvement
Jesse Jackson and other liberal activists are rolling out voter registration efforts as part of a coordinated left-wing push to sign up voters during the wave of violent protests engulfing Ferguson, Missouri in the aftermath of the Michael Brown shooting.
“Five thousand new voters will transform the city from top to bottom” Jackson explained during a stop at a Ferguson McDonald’s, where he discussed voter registration with local denizens.
Yes, thousands of new agitated voters you are coercing into voting for the very same democrats that have perpetuated this situation in the first place will certainly change things...
AND THE CYCLE WILL REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN WITH THE SAME PEOPLE IN CHARGE
Yes, thousands of new agitated voters you are coercing into voting for the very same democrats that have perpetuated this situation in the first place will certainly change things...
AND THE CYCLE WILL REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN WITH THE SAME PEOPLE IN CHARGE
No offence but can we please have one thread that is not about democrats and liberals? Seriously?
Originally posted by theBDub: I've never heard of those. Thanks for posting that.
OK I can understand you not knowing about it, he really is just a kid, hell I got kids older than him. But you?
quote
Originally posted by tshark: I thank Steve for his post about Ohio. I wasn't familiar with that incident.
Examples: 1. The National Guard. They are for war--not peace. 2. Having people who don't know what they're doing be in charge 3. Letting the media run with non-factual stories, without contest. Heck, letting the media or any outsiders in. 4. Politicians getting involved. 5. No child left behind 6. A lack of communication. Town halls are a great way to express issues & resolve them. 7. Destroying businesses, and expecting jobs to result 8. Bringing in hateful & racist windbags 9. Straw man arguments, such as Michael Brown 10. Entitlement programs 11. Anything that divides society into racial groups 12. Government overinvolvement
And just to be clear, no the national guard is not just for war, they are sent in many times to help in the past during sever weather conditions, like blizzards up north here, land slides in Cali, storms down south to help clear the damage., But when they are sent into a town or college to stop a protest it never ends well. Now in this case with the police being outnumbered by so many rioters, I am not talking about the protesters who are protesting peacefully. We have that right, but those who are destroying property of others are not protesting they are just there to create a confrontation with police, many are armed and shooting other protesters trying to get police blamed for it.
And just to be clear, no the national guard is not just for war, they are sent in many times to help in the past during sever weather conditions, like blizzards up north here, land slides in Cali, storms down south to help clear the damage., But when they are sent into a town or college to stop a protest it never ends well. Now in this case with the police being outnumbered by so many rioters, I am not talking about the protesters who are protesting peacefully. We have that right, but those who are destroying property of others are not protesting they are just there to create a confrontation with police, many are armed and shooting other protesters trying to get police blamed for it.
Steve
True. The National Guard does do many things. I meant as pertains to this situation, as you later seem to agree. I'm not holding the Guard at fault; they are not trained as peace officers. This was supposedly learned in Iraq.
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Yes, thousands of new agitated voters you are coercing into voting for the very same democrats that have perpetuated this situation in the first place will certainly change things...
Is this better: Thousands of agitated voters you are coercing into voting for the very same politicians that have perpetuated this situation in the first place.
I don't believe either main option is a solution, but things are getting worse. We may soon have the same ending as the movie The Day After Tomorrow.
List the crimes? Have any charges been filed? It is a good idea to know what we are supposed to pass judgement on. Are they real legal crime or just "crimes" against your opinion?
No, no charges have been filed! Of course they haven't! It has taken direct video with the cop's face to even think about charging the officer that killed Eric Garner. Police are not held accountable in this country. They won't pay for the medical bills for the toddler that was hurt in a police raid on the wrong house. In Ferguson, they have gone against the freedom of speech by gassing news crews and tearing down their equipment, they have gone against the freedom of assembly by blasting sound cannons and tear gas at the peaceful protesters. They've illegally ordered evacuations of businesses that were not in any danger, just to catch reporters.
Sorry if this is all over the place. 
