Marked politics because I know its going to go that direction...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dolan Springs, AZ (KVVU) — A gun instructor, who deputies said was shot Monday when a 9-year-old girl handled an automatic Uzi, died of his injuries.
Charles Vacca, 39, of Lake Havasu City, AZ, died Monday night while being treated at University Medical Center in Las Vegas, the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office said Tuesday.
The sheriff’s office said the incident happened about 10 a.m. Monday at an outdoor shooting range at the Last Stop at 20606 North Highway 93 in White Hills near the Nevada-Arizona border.
According to the sheriff’s office, the instructor was standing next to the girl who was handling a 9 mm automatic Uzi. Citing an investigation, the sheriff’s office said the child shot once and then lost control of the Uzi, firing four more shots.
The recoil during the child’s operation of the firearm sent it over her head and resulted in Vacca being struck in the head, deputies said.
The man was airlifted to UMC where he later died.
The sheriff’s office said the child’s parents were present at the time of the incident. A spokeswoman with Mohave County Sheriff’s Office said the girl’s father handled the gun first before the 9-year-old operated it.
The Clark County Coroner’s Office was assigned to perform an autopsy.
My 2 cents: I feel bad for the girl to have to go through this and now live with what happened, also for the instructor to have lost his life.
With that said: I really hope they try the parents with the death of the instructor, or at the very least willful negligence. It takes a special kind of STUPID to allow a 9 year old to handle a fully automatic handgun BY THEMSELVES with no assistance. Yes, I am aware that the father fired the Uzi first and was present at the time of this happening. However, he should have had hands on the gun at the same time she did, assisting her with the recoil (at the very least).
Personally I feel that no one under the age of 12 should be allowed to handle anything larger than a .22 without an adult having hands on said weapon to assist with recoil (or prior experience shooting said weapon on their own after many practice sessions). My reasoning for this comes from my experiences as a kid firing rifles/handguns/shotguns. Sure, I fired things larger than a .22 as a kid (my first shotgun round was at 5-6 years old from a 12 gauge with my dad holding it, and my first handgun fired was a .44 at 10 with my brother's grandfather assisting). But one should learn the BASICS of handling a weapon early in their life with smaller calibers before graduating to something with larger recoil.
[This message has been edited by Xerces_Blackthorne (edited 08-27-2014).]
I hate to even jump in here, but this makes my point that even though the Constitution says that ALL citizens have a right to have weapons, it does not automatically make them competent to handle the responsibility.
Originally posted by carnut122: ... even though the Constitution says that ALL citizens have a right to have weapons, it does not automatically make them competent to handle the responsibility.
The same can be said for speech. Not all people who are legally allowed to drive are competent drivers. Restricting ALL people because of a few incompetent "actors" is not right.
quote
Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: I really hope they try the parents with the death of the instructor, or at the very least willful negligence. It takes a special kind of STUPID to allow a 9 year old to handle a fully automatic handgun BY THEMSELVES with no assistance.
Try the parents ? In criminal court ? What charge do you think should be brought forth, and could be proven ? One has to meet legal criteria to warrant a guilty verdict of an alleged crime committed. Should the shooting range also be tried ? How 'bouts the dumb azz, dead, instructor ? He wasn't a very good instructor, . I am good with Darwin figuring it out.
Wow. I am not opposed to people owning firearms. I am not opposed to people going to firing ranges for practice and for fun. I am not opposed to 9 year-olds going to said firing ranges with their parents/guardians. But seriously- allowing her to operate an Uzi by herself? The girl, as well as the instructor, will forever have to pay for the parents stupidity.
Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: With that said: I really hope they try the parents with the death of the instructor, or at the very least willful negligence. It takes a special kind of STUPID to allow a 9 year old to handle a fully automatic handgun BY THEMSELVES with no assistance.
Wasn't that why the "instructor" was there? That would count as supervision, I would think. While I'm a firm believer in teaching children gun safety and how to shoot from a young age, it has to be with age and skill appropriate firearms. I don't understand the fascination people have with putting fully automatic or large caliber weapons in the hands of an inexperienced person just to see what happens. (we see this all the time with some guy giving his girlfriend a 500 Magnum to shoot, etc.)
I haven't followed this story but it's a common safety practice to only put 1 round in a firearm the first time someone shoots it to prevent it getting away from them like this. That's true even for adults.
I see both the parent and the instructor at fault here, but I think the parent having an instructor present would mitigate a negligence claim. The negligence was on the part of the instructor, IMO.
I don't know how physically large the 9 year old girl is, but it isn't rocket science to know that a fully automatic machine pistol might be a bit much for a small person to handle, especially if they have never shot something like that before.
I didn't know they allow fully automatic weapons in Arizona. Hopefully just a misprint and it should have said semi-automatic otherwise here goes the next lawsuit.
I agree that the instructor should have been on top of the situation, but there's quite enough "stupid" to go around. Having said all that... Assuming it was legal to own and fire a full auto in that location, I believe that no charges should be brought, unless the people were blatantly ignoring the instructor's directions.
I didn't know they allow fully automatic weapons in Arizona. Hopefully just a misprint and it should have said semi-automatic otherwise here goes the next lawsuit.
Fully automatic weapons are legal IF you have the required permits and tax stamp. They're nearly impossible to buy because no new civilian models have been made since they were banned in the 80's, so you're looking at $10k-$30k for something like an M16, if you can find one.
A number of ranges have them available for rent, which is what it sounds like this place does.
I can see letting a 9-year-old practice with a .22, but a fully automatic Uzi? That's just dumb.
So Dad is a moron for handing an Uzi to his 9-year-old daughter. But the instructor should have known better, also. IMO, it's just a lot of fail, all around. And the irony is that the girl will probably hate guns for the rest of her life. GREAT JOB, GUYS!
On a side note, it seems many people still don't understand just how pervasive the media is nowadays. You have no privacy. And the media are actively looking for stories about guns. They want to make guns and gun owners look bad. So whether you like it or not, every time you go shooting you're under public scrutiny. The best argument for gun control is an irresponsible gun owner. So please, don't do anything stupid.
Here's the video (ends right before the instructor gets shot):
The gun range apparently allows kids from 7 years old to shoot automatic weapons.
All is normal in the Midwest. Nothing new to see here...
I've no problem with automatic weapons. Information on other forums said that this wasn't a regular size Uzi, but rather a Mini-Uzi, which is akin to a fire hose - nearly uncontrollable by someone not familiar with it.
She's also not firing it from a firm shoulder position. Another fail on the instructor.
Very sad. So preventable by even basic handling sense.
As the video shows, it's on the instructor. He was doing all the "instructing".
A 9-year-old girl vacationing with her family accidentally shot and killed an instructor at a shooting range, authorities said.
The shooting happened at 10 a.m. Monday at Arizona Last Stop, a tourist spot southeast of Las Vegas.
According to the Mohave County Sheriff's Office, the instructor - identified as Charles Vacca, 39 - was standing next to the girl, teaching her how to use an automatic Uzi. The girl's parents stood nearby, capturing video of the experience.
As the girl pulled the trigger, the recoil caused her to lose control of the gun, with Vacca accidentally shot in the head, the Mohave County Sheriff's Office said. Vacca was flown to University Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead.
Sam Scarmardo, the gun range operator, was distraught about Vacca's death.
"It's like losing a brother," Scarmardo said. "These aren't employees or associates of ours, these are family. We're all family."
Many gun ranges allow children who are 8 years and older - with parental supervision - to shoot firearms, Scarmardo said.
"We instruct kids as young as 5 on .22 rifles, and they don't get to handle high firearms, but they're under the supervision of their parents and of our professional range masters," Scarmardo said.
See how the instructor is off to the left of the girl, a UZI pistol in full auto will pull to the left and climb because it discharges the spent casings of the 9mm ammo to the right. The instructor should have been just behind the girl with his hands just off of the firearm for that just in case moment to grab it and control it. When I was in Arizona there were a lot of firearm shops that advertised they had full auto firearms to rent / shoot.
The Instructor should have been the MOST aware of the gun's recoil and that it might be too much to handle for the kid.
The instructor could have emptied the clip and just put a single round in it and let her test fire the single round to verify she could handle the recoil. Once she can handle 1, add a 2nd, and eventually work up to her trying to melt the barrel.
<snip>The instructor should have been just behind the girl with his hands just off of the firearm for that just in case moment to grab it and control it.<snip>
Earl
Exactly.
There is (or was a few years ago) an indoor range just outside of Levittown PA that rents full auto weapons to people who would like to have that "melt the barrel" experience.
I'm not anti gun and I have no problem with teaching children proper use and respect for a gun especially when they are in the home but that girl had no business shooting an uzi. Again no problem with teaching her how to use some smaller caliber rifles but ya got to have some common sense. I feel bad for the the little girl. She's going to have to live with the scene of her shooting someone in the face for the rest of her life and she did nothing wrong but do what an instructor told her to do.
It never seizes to amaze me, the incredible number of stupid people on this planet (and I'm not referring to the Girl in question). The Shooting Range, Instructor, and both Parents are responsible for this incident. It should have never happened.
I hate to even jump in here, but this makes my point that even though the Constitution says that ALL citizens have a right to have weapons, it does not automatically make them competent to handle the responsibility.
So you propose everyone get trained, which is what this girl was doing.
Terrible thing all around, should there be an age limit on automatic or semi-automatic firearms, maybe no one under 18 or over 75
One can debate selective fire/full automatic for someone too weak to handle it ( age is NOT relevant ) but why toss in semi auto in there? If you do that, might as well include revolvers and single shots too. And rocks too.
Fully automatic weapons are legal IF you have the required permits and tax stamp. They're nearly impossible to buy because no new civilian models have been made since they were banned in the 80's, so you're looking at $10k-$30k for something like an M16, if you can find one.
A number of ranges have them available for rent, which is what it sounds like this place does.
They are also legal here, under the same sorts of limitations ( and same practicalities of finding one for sale ). Plus i dont know of any public range around here that allows them so you may be stuck with an *expensive* wall decoration. ( Doesn't mean none do, i just dont know about them and have never looked .)
It never seizes to amaze me, the incredible number of stupid people on this planet (and I'm not referring to the Girl in question). The Shooting Range, Instructor, and both Parents are responsible for this incident. It should have never happened.
This I agree with. And answers the question Cliff posed to me. Realistically, IMHO it falls on the parents for not doing a little something called "responsible parenting". Hence why I say that I would expect to see the parents tried at the very least for negligence in a wrongful death suit. In a stretch they could also try them for involuntary manslaughter, however the burden of proof lies in comparative negligence, which I think in this case would be hard to prove. Just how I see it, but I'm no lawyer so YMMV of course...
Personally I feel the parents are most responsible. There's no cure for stupid, and as I said it takes a special kind of stupid to think that handing a 9 year old a fully automatic weapon and telling her to light it up after firing 1 round as a test prior (as the video shows) is a good idea. Hell, for that matter, it takes a special kind of stupid to think that even taking a 9 year old to a range that allows kids to walk in off the street with their parents and fire a fully automatic weapon of a larger caliber (larger caliber being relative in this case) is a good idea.
See how the instructor is off to the left of the girl, a UZI pistol in full auto will pull to the left and climb because it discharges the spent casings of the 9mm ammo to the right. The instructor should have been just behind the girl with his hands just off of the firearm for that just in case moment to grab it and control it. When I was in Arizona there were a lot of firearm shops that advertised they had full auto firearms to rent / shoot.
Earl
I'm thinking one's natural instinct would be to tighten one's grip on the trigger as the gun is "getting away" from the other hand thus ensuring the entire magazine is spent before all within range of the weapon would be safe. I'm surprised he's the only casualty.
Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: This I agree with. And answers the question Cliff posed to me. Realistically, IMHO it falls on the parents for not doing a little something called "responsible parenting".
Assuming this guy was a certified trainer, then the parents are not responsible for ANYTHING.
So you propose everyone get trained, which is what this girl was doing.
I made no such proposal, but I would hardly call that training. I teach math every day, but I don't start my students with calculus.
I'd call it the irresponsible making of a buck along with parents who want to be their child's friends. I took firearms training and don't remember M-16's as part of the training( must have been a bunch of sissies teaching my class at Ft. Carson, CO).
I made no such proposal, but I would hardly call that training.
Regardless of the outcome, the intent was time with a trainer. By definition you 'trust' a trainer to know/do the right thing. No difference if your kid went to drivers ed, and while he had a teachers license and passed any DOT tests, he was actually a fool and killed everyone in a drag race..
Yes its an unfortunate outcome, but the parents did due diligence. Thankfully no innocent bystanders were also killed because of his mistakes.
EDIT: And what does not starting "your" kids with calculus have to do with anything? If the students skill is appropriate i see no problem with it. I was learning it by her age... Or do you feel that everyone should be treated as morons and fall back to the least common denominator to keep every one in line? To hell with the 'overachievers' in society.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 08-27-2014).]
Assuming this guy was a certified trainer, then the parents are not responsible for ANYTHING.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a "Certified Trainer" working at "any Gun Range". But then again, I'm an old fart, and rules may have changed over time. This is just my personal opinion, but what parent in their right mind would want their daughter to learn how to use a fully automatic Uzi Pistol ???
To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a "Certified Trainer" working at "any Gun Range". But then again, I'm an old fart, and rules may have changed over time. This is just my personal opinion, but what parent in their right mind would want their daughter to learn how to use a fully automatic Uzi Pistol ???
NRA has many certified trainers, in my state at least.
I know some other states require you to go to a certified trainer and complete x amount of hours to get your license.. I dont live in those states so cant say the requirements, but they are 'state certified'.
And i wont judge another parents decision that their daughter was or was not ready to learn how to use a tool. Sure, in 'armchair hindsight' due to the result clearly she was not physically ready to handle it, but we do not know about her emotional level. ( and the fact she is a female is irrelevant to me )
EDIT: Also i dont mean to say EVERY child at that age is ready as of course they are not.. just that i wont make that judgement for someone else's kid. Also, i'm going under the impression that the 'trainer' really was one.. and everyone knew this up front that he was a supposed 'expert'. If it was just 'some dude that had cool guns to shoot', then yes, it was irresponsible.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 08-27-2014).]
This range was a tourist attraction where people could rent and shoot fully automatic weapons. It's reasonable that the parents assumed the "instructor" knew what was safe and what wasn't.
The website of Bullets and Burgers, the shooting range where the accident happened, says children between the ages of 8 and 17 can shoot a weapon if accompanied by a parent or guardian. ... Sam Scarmardo, who operates Bullets and Burgers, told CNN affiliate KLAS on Tuesday they "really don't know what happened."
"Our guys are trained to basically hover over people when they're shooting," Scarmardo said. "If they're shooting right-handed, we have our right-hand behind them ready to push the weapon out of the way. And if they're left-handed, the same thing."
There was an age limit in place. (whether it's an appropriate age is obviously debatable). There was an instructor present. It's reasonable for the parents to think the instructor knows how to make this a safe experience.
NRA has many certified trainers, in my state at least.
I know some other states require you to go to a certified trainer and complete x amount of hours to get your license.. I dont live in those states so cant say the requirements, but they are 'state certified'.
And i wont judge another parents decision that their daughter was or was not ready to learn how to use a tool. Sure, in 'armchair hindsight' due to the result clearly she was not physically ready to handle it, but we do not know about her emotional level. ( and the fact she is a female is irrelevant to me )
I understand what you are saying, but are "Certified Trainer's" required at Public Gun Ranges ? She or her parents weren't intending to purchase. I guess I am a little more callous when it comes to 9 years old's female or male using this kind of tool. In my opinion this guy wasn't certified in anything, if he had been, there is no way he would have been in the position he was in.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 08-27-2014).]
EDIT: And what does not starting "your" kids with calculus have to do with anything?
Like any skill-set, it would be best to start with some foundational skills prior to tackling higher level skills. From the girl not having a clue about her stance when shooting the Uzi, I'll take a wild guess that it was the first weapon she had ever fired. I'm also guessing it will be her last.
[This message has been edited by carnut122 (edited 08-27-2014).]
I understand what you are saying, but are "Certified Trainer's" required at Public Gun Ranges ? She or her parents weren't intending to purchase. I guess I am a little more callous when it comes to 9 years old's female or male using this kind of tool. In my opinion this guy wasn't certified in anything, if he had been, there is no way he would have been in the position he was in.
I heard it was one of these new "Burgers & Bullets" novelty places along the roadside in the desert. Like those big Dinosaur-shaped restaurants of the past or something...
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 08-27-2014).]
I heard it was one of these new "Burgers & Bullets" novelty places along the roadside in the desert. Like those big Dinosaur-shaped restaurants of the past or something...
So, when nobody was shooting, he was flippin' burgers.
Did you hear the one where a couple parents took their child to an Airshow. They went up to the owner of a Pitts Special and said my Child would like to fly your plane, why don't you tell a few instructions and let my child take it up, I'll make it worth your while.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 08-27-2014).]
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