Consumerism is a double edged sword, it props up our economy with consumer spending but also adds huge amounts of personal debt. What's worse is that the middle class is actually earning less now in terms of purchasing power so to keep the same standard of living many people borrow money to purchase things whereas in the past they were able to pay cash. IMO this is largely because most of our large manufacturing companies have relocated offshore along with the higher paying jobs that they used to have here. Even the higher paying jobs that still exist here like programmers are in many cases being filled by "guest workers" from other countries whom are paid half of what the local worker was making. Last year Disney World fired most of their IT staff and replaced them with workers from overseas provided by a staffing company specializing in bringing workers in from other countries. Some of the fired staffers were willing to take a cut in pay to keep their job but were denied the opportunity. We constantly hear the politicians talk about small businesses being so important to help our economy but the truth of the matter is that most all small businesses do not pay their employees a wage high enough to support a family because they can't do so and stay in business. What used to support a middle class here were large corporations employing thousands of people and paying them a high wage. A lot of those companies are gone now or are a shadow of their former self.
"He asked me what we could do to help poor people. I said I donated money, food, medical care, and services and he said, "No," he meant, what could society do to solve the problem of poor people. Again, I was stumped. He said the government had to do it, which I interpreted as another way of saying he didn't know, but he thought that made me look mean ... even though I do care and do try to help.
President Obama sure looks and acts way smarter than me, but no one is 2 to the 300 millionth power times smarter than me. No one is even 2 to the 300 millionth times smarter than a squirrel. I sure don't know what to do about an AA+ rating and if we should live beyond our means and about compromise and sacrifice. I have no idea. I'm scared to death of being in debt. I was a street juggler and carny trash -- I couldn't get my debt limit raised, I couldn't even get a debt limit -- my only choice was to live within my means. That's all I understand from my experience, and that's not much. It's amazing to me how many people think that voting to have the government give poor people money is compassion. Helping poor and suffering people is compassion. Voting for our government to use guns to give money to help poor and suffering people is immoral self-righteous bullying laziness.
People need to be fed, medicated, educated, clothed, and sheltered, and if we're compassionate we'll help them, but you get no moral credit for forcing other people to do what you think is right. There is great joy in helping people, but no joy in doing it at gunpoint.
People try to argue that government isn't really force. You believe that? Try not paying your taxes. (This is only a thought experiment -- suggesting on CNN.com that someone not pay his or her taxes is probably a federal offense, and I'm a nut, but I'm not crazy.). When they come to get you for not paying your taxes, try not going to court. Guns will be drawn. Government is force -- literally, not figuratively.
I don't believe the majority always knows what's best for everyone. The fact that the majority thinks they have a way to get something good does not give them the right to use force on the minority that don't want to pay for it. If you have to use a gun, I don't believe you really know jack. Democracy without respect for individual rights sucks. It's just ganging up against the weird kid, and I'm always the weird kid."
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Penn Jillette.
Bush? Oh... or are you continuing that myth of the "Obama Phones"?
The debt that we have started before Bush. I don't blame obama or Bush for that. They both share blame for increasing our addiction to debt. obama is much more devious about it as he seems to enjoy the results of it.
The debt that we have started before Bush. I don't blame obama or Bush for that. They both share blame for increasing our addiction to debt. obama is much more devious about it as he seems to enjoy the results of it.
Devious? Wouldn't starting two UNFUNDED wars based on ... well, some would say... lies... be more devious? Just saying...
Frankly, I think Obama is happy to see people working again and the country starting to turn around. Wouldn't any sitting prez be happy about that?
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 10-21-2015).]
That's because the norm in the US is to live constantly in debt.
many, and much more than the media and the wall street talking heads want to admit, don't live constantly in debt.. We learned in 2007-8-9 , it can bring you to your knees, no one I know, had debt, other than a mortgage, and maybe a car loan.. unlike back then when almost all of us had a bunch of c-cards with somewhat large balances..
Not all "poor" people are unemployed. Many work hard, but don't make much (and live within their means). They are not even on welfare... just saying.
very true, but many after being forced into a monthly bill they can't afford, fond they can not keep head above water, and have said fri g it, and now get free food, housing, etc and free health care.. many had to much pride to have their hands out, but Obama has made it so they have no choice, work like dogs and not be able to pay the rent, or throw in the towel.. and get on the gravy train..
Jobs have left this country... outsourcing destroyed the middle class and you blame Obama. Companies would rather pay someone $1/hour to assemble their product... would you work for $1 / hour? Instead of companies making smaller profits and paying a good wage, they pay nearly nothing in wages and make billions and pay management millions. But you blame Obama...
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
very true, but many after being forced into a monthly bill they can't afford, fond they can not keep head above water, and have said fri g it, and now get free food, housing, etc and free health care.. many had to much pride to have their hands out, but Obama has made it so they have no choice, work like dogs and not be able to pay the rent, or throw in the towel.. and get on the gravy train..
Come on guys, this is totally ridiculous... stop the conversation right here...
China always underreports these kinds of things. There is a HUGE portion of their population that doesn't even have power and still lives in mud huts.
The United States stretches and alters the reporting too on tons of things... but even then, we are eons more honest than China is about their society.
Jobs have left this country... outsourcing destroyed the middle class and you blame Obama. Companies would rather pay someone $1/hour to assemble their product... would you work for $1 / hour? Instead of companies making smaller profits and paying a good wage, they pay nearly nothing in wages and make billions and pay management millions. But you blame Obama...
outsourcing, ya Clinton and his wonderful trade act.. put the final nail in the job market..
Come on guys, this is totally ridiculous... stop the conversation right here...
China always underreports these kinds of things. There is a HUGE portion of their population that doesn't even have power and still lives in mud huts.
The United States stretches and alters the reporting too on tons of things... but even then, we are eons more honest than China is about their society.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: China always underreports these kinds of things. There is a HUGE portion of their population that doesn't even have power and still lives in mud huts.
Yeah, but they don't have any debt (mortgage) on that mud hut!
A mud hut in these parts would still cost me a couple of years wages...
Devious? Wouldn't starting two UNFUNDED wars based on ... well, some would say... lies... be more devious? Just saying...
Frankly, I think Obama is happy to see people working again and the country starting to turn around. Wouldn't any sitting prez be happy about that?
If this was not so serious it would be funny. Bush, protected us from more attacks. We were so strong at the time they could not. Now see what Obama' s strategy is doing. He is a laughing stalk.
The irony in the "recovery" is that the dems are selling the debt ceiling increase with the punch line of "we have to barrow more money to pay back the money we borrowed". Yah,,,, that is a recovery But feel free to keep blaming Bush, not like you are the only one doing it. obama is as guilty as anyone and all you do is blame Bush.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 10-21-2015).]
many, and much more than the media and the wall street talking heads want to admit, don't live constantly in debt.. We learned in 2007-8-9 , it can bring you to your knees, no one I know, had debt, other than a mortgage, and maybe a car loan.. unlike back then when almost all of us had a bunch of c-cards with somewhat large balances..
I can tell you as a relatively recent arrival (2008) to the US that I was and still am amazed with what non-chalance Americans regard debt. Hardly anyone we know here doesn't have a huge mortgage, a car payment, credit card debt etc.
I couldn't sleep at night with debt like that. It's a whole different mindset to what I'm used to and what I was taught growing up. Cultural differences, I guess...
That's because the norm in the US is to live constantly in debt.
Agreed but after 2008 the savings rate of Americans has risen to the point that the economy sees the money as being hoarded. It bugs me that we have to be heavy consumers to the point of crushing debt to drive the economy. I guess it's better than an strong war economy where we destroy stuff and replace it.
But at some point consumers will relax and start to buy again. Problem is no one knows how to make that happen now because we need it - now.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 10-21-2015).]
Bush created a breeding ground for ISIS. You feel safe under the patriot act? How about stripping down to fly? Yeah, thanks to Bush, we are so much safer....
The recession started under Bush... Who else would we blame? Oh yeah... The guy that came in after.... Lame.
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:
If this was not so serious it would be funny. Bush, protected us from more attacks. We were so strong at the time they could not. Now see what Obama' s strategy is doing. He is a laughing stalk.
The irony in the "recovery" is that the dems are selling the debt ceiling increase with the punch line of "we have to barrow more money to pay back the money we borrowed". Yah,,,, that is a recovery But feel free to keep blaming Bush, not like you are the only one doing it. obama is as guilty as anyone and all you do is blame Bush.
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 10-21-2015).]
Bush created a breeding ground for ISIS. You feel safe under the patriot act? How about stripping down to fly? Yeah, thanks to Bush, we are so much safer....
The recession started under Bush... Who else would we blame? Oh yeah... The guy that came in after.... Lame.
You act like I am a fan of Bush? He is just another Pres. to me. obama on the other hand is much worse than ANY other Pres.
The "recession" was mostly caused by the housing bubble. The housing bubble was caused by Democrat's policies. So Bush is not solely responsible for it. AND after obama is out of office the weak "recovery" is still obama's falt. He dragged it out and dug a deeper hole for us.
BTW, Bush did not "create a breeding ground" for isis. jehadists have been around for 1400 years. jehadists have hated the West for Creating Israel. But I guess that is Bush's falter too
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 10-21-2015).]
I can tell you as a relatively recent arrival (2008) to the US that I was and still am amazed with what non-chalance Americans regard debt. Hardly anyone we know here doesn't have a huge mortgage, a car payment, credit card debt etc.
I couldn't sleep at night with debt like that. It's a whole different mindset to what I'm used to and what I was taught growing up. Cultural differences, I guess...
They were trained that by the media and told they deserve it. Then they were not counter trained by parents. I grew up here and am probably just as shocked.
I'm not shocked at all. It had become very commonplace to covet things others had, even if it meant going deep into debt to immediately have things others had saved their entire lives for. For many, that still holds true today.
I can tell you as a relatively recent arrival (2008) to the US that I was and still am amazed with what non-chalance Americans regard debt. Hardly anyone we know here doesn't have a huge mortgage, a car payment, credit card debt etc.
I couldn't sleep at night with debt like that. It's a whole different mindset to what I'm used to and what I was taught growing up. Cultural differences, I guess...
I could upgrade to a house 3 times as nice with all the wonderful extras nice big garage shop ect.. as the banks and loan companies all say I can afford it.. even when I bought my house they said I could buy a 450k home, I stuck to my thinking of, a tad over 100k was nice enough.. and glad I did, as those that took the bait of, you can afford this, and bought a home at the top of that range, are now wishing they didn't. Would I have liked to have paid cash for it, sure but 23% down was all I could muster before buying.. I still have a mortgage, but it is about 2/3rds of what most are renting an apartment for, that used to have a much nicer home than I.. they pay 1600-1800.oo for an apartment, I pay under a grand for my house.. if I followed my realitors advise and bought up to my loan approval limit, I'd be renting also.. you have to balance wants, with what you really really need..
Bush created a breeding ground for ISIS. You feel safe under the patriot act? How about stripping down to fly? Yeah, thanks to Bush, we are so much safer....
The recession started under Bush... Who else would we blame? Oh yeah... The guy that came in after.... Lame.
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:
Bush created a breeding ground for ISIS. You feel safe under the patriot act? How about stripping down to fly? Yeah, thanks to Bush, we are so much safer....
The recession started under Bush... Who else would we blame? Oh yeah... The guy that came in after.... Lame.
ya cause Clintons trade act and the dems community housing rebuild (whatever they called it) act that forced banks into loaning to people that shouldn't be getting approved, had zero to do with it, funny bush warned congress to do something 3 or 4 times but the liberal controlled congress would have non of it.. ya blame bush you tool.
I'm not shocked at all. It had become very commonplace to covet things others had, even if it meant going deep into debt to immediately have things others had saved their entire lives for. For many, that still holds true today.
ya sure, oh, sure,
how about all out greed.. baby boomers bought house in 70 for 22k, and have no quams about taking a 350k check for it now.. many reasons people are in debt.. generational greed is a big one.. many buy and do it with a loan.. many it's based on a need, others just a want,, better question is, should stuff cost so much that you have no choice but to take out a loan to buy it.. can't have it both ways, if you are the type that claims we needed to control auto emissions and safety. it comes at a high cost.. if you have no quams of taking a 22k home and as a group bringing the next group of buyers to their knees wanting 350k for it. then this is what happens.. if you looked the other way as your stocks earned bank outsourcing so your retirement account could get bigger, and then comment on people going into debt, to buy things because they can't get a good paying job, cause they are gone, then you might be a huge part of the reason..
