Physical violence is the deliberate use of physical force with the potential for causing harm.
Define "harm." A typical spanking does not cause injury. Harm can mean just about anything someone doesn't like these days.
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Originally posted by Boondawg: So it is used to instill a "fear of harm" as a means of behavioral control?
If you are only able to see in absolutes, then yes. I have gone out of my way to point out that is but one option.
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Originally posted by Boondawg: I agree that pain is a great motivator for doing another's forced bidding (perceived good OR bad). It makes a quick, fast, lesson-learner.[/url]
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Originally posted by Boondawg: Forced bidding? Are you suggesting some form of slavery or something outside the realm of a parent disciplining their own child? I'm not, just to be clear.
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Originally posted by Boondawg: But the question remains: Without the fear of physical pain as punishment, why do some still not steal? Or vise-versa? Can it be inherent?
I've already answered that repeatedly. Continuing to ask won't bring a different answer.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-10-2016).]
I've already answered that repeatedly. Continuing to ask won't bring a different answer.
Ok. For me, it's just an exploration. It seems you have already completed yours to your own satisfaction.
I'm still explorin'.*
*why a grown man (who was probably raised well) will fight to justify getting a candybar for free "because it was the machines fault". He didn't "steal" it, it was "given" to him. (even though he intentionally picked that slot because of a known malfunction)
"Honesty" demands he return the one he didn't pay for.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-10-2016).]
Ok. For me, it's just an exploration. It seems you have already completed yours to your own satisfaction.
I'm still explorin'.*
*why a grown man (who was probably raised well) will fight to justify getting a candybar for free "because it was the machines fault".
By all means, continue to explore; however, if you want new answers you'll need new questions. I've pointed out negative reinforcement does not necessarily mean a physical act, so your question was asked and answered. We can explore all the different ways to say the same thing, but in the end if you're only looking at physical discipline you won't see anything else.
*why a grown man (who was probably raised well) will fight to justify getting a candybar for free "because it was the machines fault". He didn't "steal" it, it was "given" to him. (even though he intentionally picked that slot because of a known malfunction)
Probably only a grown man on the outside. I think very few really know how anyone else was raised.
By all means, continue to explore; however, if you want new answers you'll need new questions. I've pointed out negative reinforcement does not necessarily mean a physical act, so your question was asked and answered. We can explore all the different ways to say the same thing, but in the end if you're only looking at physical discipline you won't see anything else.
Yours isn't the only view I'm interested in exploring. Others might see it differently than you do. I'd be interested in exploring those views, too.
Why do we drive over the speed limit when we think we won't get caught. I have a hard time with that one.
On a 60mph highway, I mostly do 70.
I wonder if I would still go 10mph over if the limit was 70mph...or 80mph...or 90mph? What factors determines my cruising speed when left entirely up to me?
A balance between time spent & what feels safe to me?
When were "honor boxes" the norm? Did we never have thieves until "this generation"... or "because of liberals"? Anyone remember why the cash register exists and who built it? There is no honor among thieves and thieves have always existed.
Seriously? You have honor boxes when you have little to lose and your clients are more interested in your product than your money. If it is a village, an honor box may work IF everyone knows each other and people know they have a good chance of being caught.
Times have not changed, liberals are not at fault, the sky is not falling...
Hahaha so awesome.
I often wonder who raised the people who are raising those rotten kids today and of course who raised them etc. But of course if we think of societal problems as something fully explained and solved with cute quotes or simple actions it makes it easier to not worry about. It's other peoples fault and if they would just do what I do/say all would be fine. Simple! soooooo SIMPLE!
Why do we drive over the speed limit when we think we won't get caught. I have a hard time with that one.
Here is an even better one....at 3AM, being the only car on the road (in some small towns) WHY do we sit at that damn red light for 3-4 minutes waiting for it to turn green, when there is NO rational reason to NOT treat it as a 4-way stop ?
2 reasons...#1 is we have been programmed to
and #2, the threat of "punishment" in that we don't know if there is a cop sitting in the dark 1/2 a block away just waiting to nail us on it and cost us several hundred (or more) bucks.
Rationally--we are morons for not just stopping, checking for (non-existent) traffic and going on our merry way.
I often wonder who raised the people who are raising those rotten kids today and of course who raised them etc. But of course if we think of societal problems as something fully explained and solved with cute quotes or simple actions it makes it easier to not worry about. It's other peoples fault and if they would just do what I do/say all would be fine. Simple! soooooo SIMPLE!
Odd... if people were so honest "back in the day".... why do we have guns, locks, prisons, safes, etc? What was Wells Fargo's job? Why did they have strong boxes? Everyone was honest back then, right? I guess some would rather blame "the current - liberal - generation" instead of looking at history and human nature.
Genetically? Perhaps. We really aren't all that far along or sure what genetics do and how they react. But, the other half of the question involves what is NOT there. The very large % of society, even assuming we all are predisposed to __?__pathic behavior, has a built-in mechanism for controlling or repressing bad behavior, poor decision making, and anti-social behavior--how we acquire it is debatable, but we definitely have it. The closest analogy or medical similarity I can think of is the vocalization part of Tourette Syndrome. It is believed, there is some neural pathway disruption, that prevents the afflicted person from repressing the socially unaccepted speech almost all the rest of us do involuntarily. For the sociopath, I suspect a good part of it is willingly continued in order to supply a readily available rationalization for bad behavior, and they don't want to change because it means they would have to both admit (at least to themselves) and address the fact they have a problem, and they very much like having the "That's simply who I am" rationalization as a crutch to explain it to themselves.
Actually, it is much more accurate to say that is any garden variety sociopath's mantra. Have you ever met even a single one that didn't often and loudly exclaim that all the angst in their life was caused by everyone else--someone else--anyone else but themselves? I have not.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-10-2016).]
IMO some kids don't need physical discipline, but some do, kids aren't all the same.
You may be right... but I can tell you this, that I was grounded many times for my school grades/not doing homework/ taking something apart to see how it worked.. it didn't really stop me,, I just tried harder to not get caught, when I took a pack of crayons from a store when I was 9, I got the belt.. and I never took anything that didn't belong to me, or that I didn't pay for, ever again.. The punishment fit the crime, today you can't punish that way.. only ground or tell them it's wrong/bad.. and once they figure out talking back and shoplifting gets them the same punishment, they will push their luck farther and farther.. I didn't like the few times I got the belt, but I'm darn glad I had parents that did when warranted,, as It no matter how many say other ways, makes you think darn hard before doing it again.. and also made you know that your parents are there to teach and to be feared if you cross the line.. and that is not a bad thing..
Odd... if people were so honest "back in the day".... why do we have guns, locks, prisons, safes, etc? What was Wells Fargo's job? Why did they have strong boxes? Everyone was honest back then, right? I guess some would rather blame "the current - liberal - generation" instead of looking at history and human nature.
I don't see anybody but you trying to make the point that crime didn't exist 'back in the day'. People have not changed all that much, but 'the day' has, sociologically and politically. I'm not going to point to a party and say "The X-tards are responsible" because that's BS. WE are responsible because we're responsible for maintaining a civilized society and we refuse to do it.
Most of it boils down to entitlement and a general lack of respect for other people, their property, or their feelings. I want this thing, therefore I will take it. And the reinforcement through schools and popular culture that nothing is 'wrong'. Maybe the decline of religion has a bit to do with it, but I never labored under the assumption that if I stole something God would strike me down. I didn't do it because I knew inherently it was WRONG. Where did that notion come from? Parents teaching me to respect things in my home because they had been earned and not to take them for granted. Teachers making sure I didn't take the red crayon from Billy and not fearing a lawsuit if I freak out about it. The much feared concept of "Family Values"? I couldn't point to one thing, but I don't recall previous generations excusing their children breaking into homes and stealing peoples' property by saying "Where's he supposed to get his money from?" Look at the lengths people go to now to justify stealing just so they don't have to call it theft. Modifying an Amazon Fire Stick to get "access" to all sorts of "free programming" is not illegal. It's only illegal to upload the content so I'm not doing anything wrong by viewing that content - but you should probably use a VPN just to be sure. Whatever lets you sleep at night - it's OK because the cable company is a ripoff. It's OK to make copies of copyrighted works because the original is not destroyed. I love that one. It's OK for me to download this game because I was never going to pay for it anyway. Those are just digital examples that change peoples' thought patterns into thinking that wanting a thing and possessing it are the same.
To state that "It's always been this way" is disingenuous as best. "Back in the day" if you tried to rob the stage, you might very well get shot. "Back in the day", if someone saw you doing something wrong as a kid, they would likely say something - to the shop owner or to your parents if they knew them. If they caught you, they might drag you bodily home to explain just what happened. You would be ashamed if that happened. Now there is no shame, at least not for many.
Odd... if people were so honest "back in the day".... why do we have guns, locks, prisons, safes, etc? What was Wells Fargo's job? Why did they have strong boxes? Everyone was honest back then, right? I guess some would rather blame "the current - liberal - generation" instead of looking at history and human nature.
Your argument then is its quantity not quality, that has changed? There is some merit to the argument that more people increases the instances of bad stuff happening, especially when they gather together.
You may be right... but I can tell you this, that I was grounded many times for my school grades/not doing homework/ taking something apart to see how it worked.. it didn't really stop me,, I just tried harder to not get caught, when I took a pack of crayons from a store when I was 9, I got the belt.. and I never took anything that didn't belong to me, or that I didn't pay for, ever again.. The punishment fit the crime, today you can't punish that way.. only ground or tell them it's wrong/bad.. and once they figure out talking back and shoplifting gets them the same punishment, they will push their luck farther and farther.. I didn't like the few times I got the belt, but I'm darn glad I had parents that did when warranted,, as It no matter how many say other ways, makes you think darn hard before doing it again.. and also made you know that your parents are there to teach and to be feared if you cross the line.. and that is not a bad thing..
Yet some folks think punishment won't deter (most) crime. I think if it wont, then the punishment isn't strong enough.
I don't see anybody but you trying to make the point that crime didn't exist 'back in the day'. People have not changed all that much, but 'the day' has, sociologically and politically. I'm not going to point to a party and say "The X-tards are responsible" because that's BS. WE are responsible because we're responsible for maintaining a civilized society and we refuse to do it.
Most of it boils down to entitlement and a general lack of respect for other people, their property, or their feelings. I want this thing, therefore I will take it. And the reinforcement through schools and popular culture that nothing is 'wrong'. Maybe the decline of religion has a bit to do with it, but I never labored under the assumption that if I stole something God would strike me down. I didn't do it because I knew inherently it was WRONG. Where did that notion come from? Parents teaching me to respect things in my home because they had been earned and not to take them for granted. Teachers making sure I didn't take the red crayon from Billy and not fearing a lawsuit if I freak out about it. The much feared concept of "Family Values"? I couldn't point to one thing, but I don't recall previous generations excusing their children breaking into homes and stealing peoples' property by saying "Where's he supposed to get his money from?" Look at the lengths people go to now to justify stealing just so they don't have to call it theft....
To state that "It's always been this way" is disingenuous as best. "Back in the day" if you tried to rob the stage, you might very well get shot. "Back in the day", if someone saw you doing something wrong as a kid, they would likely say something - to the shop owner or to your parents if they knew them. If they caught you, they might drag you bodily home to explain just what happened. You would be ashamed if that happened. Now there is no shame, at least not for many.
Yet some folks think punishment won't deter (most) crime. I think if it wont, then the punishment isn't strong enough.
Most put punishment of a child as they grow in the same bucket as those in jail.. and it's not the same.. as the jail breads harder core thugs.. as they can learn to be an even better thug inside... were a child getting punished isn't grounded with a bunch of even wilder children.. Most only see the punishment side, for punishment to teach wrong and right is to work you have to also award for when they do good.. That part is never part of the round table talks when people glamor over how you don't need to punish with anything other than words.. Sadly today we have the mindset of putting everything under one embrella , child abuse and smacking your child if they do something wrong are put under the same thing, child endangerment.. hell, you can have child services at your door if you make your child walk a mile to think about what they did, after you had to pick them up from school .for getting in trouble..
Yet some folks think punishment won't deter (most) crime. I think if it wont, then the punishment isn't strong enough.
Agreed.
At one place I used to work, we had a driver who told a few of us, “I am a thief.” He said, “I wont steal from you, because I know you, but I will steal from the guy down the street. Why not?” He was not in the least bit ashamed of what he was. Some people will always have an excuse, a rationalization.
They liked to hire 1%'ers and ex cons, and it was my job to try to keep them in line. One day he called me from the side of the road in Texas and said, “They've got me pulled over and I don't know why”. He knew why. A driver doesn't call just because he got stopped. “They made me take my shirt off and they are checking out my tattoos, but I don't know why”. He knew why. They hauled him away and we had to recover a truck 800 miles away. I never did find out exactly what happened, but we never heard from him again.
As 2.5 has suggested, at least in my generation a good part of social and moral education came from the church. I don't think kids get that much now.
Most put punishment of a child as they grow in the same bucket as those in jail.. and it's not the same.. as the jail breads harder core thugs.. as they can learn to be an even better thug inside... were a child getting punished isn't grounded with a bunch of even wilder children.. Most only see the punishment side, for punishment to teach wrong and right is to work you have to also award for when they do good.. That part is never part of the round table talks when people glamor over how you don't need to punish with anything other than words.. Sadly today we have the mindset of putting everything under one embrella , child abuse and smacking your child if they do something wrong are put under the same thing, child endangerment.. hell, you can have child services at your door if you make your child walk a mile to think about what they did, after you had to pick them up from school .for getting in trouble..
There used to be merit in the carrot-and-stick approach, but now that every child is a Special Snowflake and we give them all participation trophies so nobody's feewiings get huwt - that dog won't hunt. The carrot is meaningless and the stick has no sting. By the time they get to prison age it's too late. Prison makes smarter criminals. Any useful punishment is now cruel or unusual. There used to be prisons for people who welched on a debt. Now it's common practice to walk away from a loan or other obligation that's become 'inconvenient'. A handshake, a signature, a promise - all have become nearly meaningless. We've whored them out to selfishness, vanity, and convenience. Kids see their parents do this, and how does that imprint on them? If mom and dad have no honor, how can we expect their children to have any?
Actually, it is much more accurate to say that is any garden variety sociopath's mantra. Have you ever met even a single one that didn't often and loudly exclaim that all the angst in their life was caused by everyone else--someone else--anyone else but themselves? I have not.
Oh, yes....blame the fraud victim since he evidently failed to perform sufficient due diligence, not the fraud artist for operating a pyramid scheme. Somehow, I dont think that position is going to fly with Bernie Maddoff's victims, or millions of others of similar schemes. Or the victims of "Doctors" who after suffering find out he was no more than a quack with a $50 internet "degree", or the millions of other victims of professional mis-representation by fraud artists claiming corporate positions higher then they actually have.
Dont forget all those folks who ended up loosing most or all of what they owned because a moving company decided, once the articals were in the truck, to double or triple the price of the move beyond whet the victims could pay, or even worse decided not to show up on moving day (cancelling the contract) because another job was more lucrative.
YUP ! all that angst is most certainly the fault of the victims.
Oh, yes....blame the fraud victim since he evidently failed to perform sufficient due diligence, not the fraud artist for operating a pyramid scheme. Somehow, I dont think that position is going to fly with Bernie Maddoff's victims, or millions of others of similar schemes. Or the victims of "Doctors" who after suffering find out he was no more than a quack with a $50 internet "degree", or the millions of other victims of professional mis-representation by fraud artists claiming corporate positions higher then they actually have.
Dont forget all those folks who ended up loosing most or all of what they owned because a moving company decided, once the articals were in the truck, to double or triple the price of the move beyond whet the victims could pay, or even worse decided not to show up on moving day (cancelling the contract) because another job was more lucrative.
YUP ! all that angst is most certainly the fault of the victims.
What does any of that have to do with the quote about SOCIOPATHS? Turn each of your examples around and have the perpetrators of those actions give you excuses as to why they did what they did.
What does any of that have to do with the quote about SOCIOPATHS? Turn each of your examples around and have the perpetrators of those actions give you excuses as to why they did what they did.
The "blame the victim" position is its own for of sociopathy (inability to feel empathy). I have 48 years of experience dealing with it since my mother is one of them (among other things). Just one example...in 1972 Dad bought a 73 Plymouth, and he just loved that thing. After a couple of weeks he got rear-ended and the car was a write-off (insurance got him another but not with the color and options he had specifically ordered on the 1st one). Mom told him it was his own fault, he should have been in the other lane. Another one, I got a softball off the face at a ball game when i was about 15 and same thing, I got told I should have been standing somewhere else.
AND, you cant argue with the mentality, they just refuse to accept the idea that sometimes things DO happen that are no fault of the person they happen to. NO amount of arguing is ever going to change their view. (Not a personal attack MJ, so don't take it that way, its actually a fairly common viewpoint but tends to be more with females than males)
Oh, yes....blame the fraud victim since he evidently failed to perform sufficient due diligence, not the fraud artist for operating a pyramid scheme. Somehow, I dont think that position is going to fly with Bernie Maddoff's victims, or millions of others of similar schemes. Or the victims of "Doctors" who after suffering find out he was no more than a quack with a $50 internet "degree", or the millions of other victims of professional mis-representation by fraud artists claiming corporate positions higher then they actually have.
Dont forget all those folks who ended up loosing most or all of what they owned because a moving company decided, once the articals were in the truck, to double or triple the price of the move beyond whet the victims could pay, or even worse decided not to show up on moving day (cancelling the contract) because another job was more lucrative.
YUP ! all that angst is most certainly the fault of the victims.
Maddoff was/is a psychopath--not a sociopath. He got along very well with others, had lots of friends, a very busy social life, (Palm Beach Country Club) and was a big $$$ philanthropist (using other people's money of course) . But, as was pointed out in the article I pasted, he had no remorse about stealing from friends or any one else. He stole from his own Jewish religious organizations, and the only people he ever showed any remorse to was his family and that only at his sentencing. By his own admission, he knew he was doing wrong years before the thing imploded on him and just didn't care. He left it up to his own family to report him the day he shut it down. He publicly declared and accepted all responsibility for the scheme tho, something no sociopath would ever do. Even in prison, he is very well liked (as much as anyone in prison can be) and gets along with almost everyone he encounters. His "apology" : I have left a legacy of shame, as some of my victims have pointed out, to my family and my grandchildren. This is something I will live in for the rest of my life. I'm sorry.
His life today (in prison) : In his letter to his daughter-in-law, Madoff said that he was being treated in prison like a "Mafia don". They call me either Uncle Bernie or Mr. Madoff. I can't walk anywhere without someone shouting their greetings and encouragement, to keep my spirit up. It's really quite sweet, how concerned everyone is about my well being, including the staff ... It's much safer here than walking the streets of New York. classic psychopath.
Why do we drive over the speed limit when we think we won't get caught. I have a hard time with that one.
The one I have a hard time with is similar.
Why do some moan and complain in anger about someone speeding down the street they live on yet when they drive they speed down the street someone else lives on?
Do you normally speed? If so, do you continue to do so when there is a cop behind you? Why would someone stop speeding when followed by a cop?
Me personally? I would like to say no but the best I can actually say is that I try with great success to not speed. Even on my trip to California and back I set the cruise control to about 3-5 MPH under the speed limit so the car "shouldn't" exceed the limit. I do my best to abide by the limit but from time to time I may not realize I got a little above or I remembered the limit on a road wrongly. When I notice something like that I adjust my speed so I'm not exceeding the limit. I leave early enough so that I'm not in a time crunch to get somewhere (not without exception but like following the limit, I'd say 90%+ of the time). Aside from that when I'm not scheduled to be somewhere, I'm in no rush to get anywhere. I once got a speeding ticket... When I was 18. That was over 25 years ago. I'd rather let someone else get the ticket.
How many times a day do we break our familiar laws? (The ones we know we're breaking on purpose)
Maybe I, more than anyone. Maybe I'm just trying to find how close I am to the norm...
The aggregate total of laws on the books is somewhere around 2,000,000 (some stupid high number in Canada as well). It is simly humanly impossible to so much as get out of bed without breaking some of them (and staying in bed probably breaks some too).
“Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with
...and, a commentary which saves me a boatload of typing
To the Honor box, Is there a lot more new immigrants to that part of the UK?
As to physical violence teaching respect. At about 3 - 4 I spanked my kid, he yelled, "that did not hurt". I explained, "It was not supposed to, it was to show you the disrespect you showed me". Last time I needed to spank, open defiance was done.
neighbors ain't what they use to be. too many neighborhoods are filled with strangers who live less than 100 feet apart.
How can an honor system work when strangers do not trust each other to be honorable. Also, how many, otherwise honorable people would consider taking more than they need just because they know or believe that others are doing the same.
Funny things is that most people do the honorable every month and strive to pay their debts and bills. They are also waiting for something in their favor. Including a 2 for 1 from the vending machine.
However, there is a thin line between stealing and a good deal. The vending machine is a modern version of the honor system. Without supervision, the agreement between you and the vendor is that you insert money, receive selected item and get appropriate change. If the machine did not deliver, it is assumed that you will get a refund. But also note that there is, usually, no number posted to called when you receive more than you paid for. Because, when you put your money in, you are acting in good faith (honorable). When you select the item you paid for, your are acting in good faith (honorable). If 2 items come out and you smile and walk away with the extra item, unless you broke the machine and stole it, you acted in good faith (honorable). Machine malfunctions are not the fault of the customer.
The only time I disagree with that is when you are at a business and using a vending machine accessible during business hours. In that case, returning the item would be conveniently on your way out. It's like finding a $20 on the ground in the dinning area of a restaurant. There is no name on the bill and you can't tell if or which customer dropped it. Nor can you determine if it were a waitress/waiter who dropped it. Unless you saw who dropped it, It's yours now......
just because they know or believe that others are doing the same.
That is the sorriest rationalization for bad behavior there is--reminds me of something a child might say or use. "But Dad--everybody does it...."
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like finding a $20 on the ground in the dinning area of a restaurant. There is no name on the bill and you can't tell if or which customer dropped it. Nor can you determine if it were a waitress/waiter who dropped it. Unless you saw who dropped it, It's yours now......
$1 maybe, but above that, it's not mine. Goes to the cashier or a waitress--they may just put it in their pocket and keep quiet about it or maybe someone will come back in and ask about it or maybe they won't, but $20 or more will never "be mine". It might be the last $20 someone had or the $20 they were gonna stop and get milk and bread with on the way home. A bill just blowin around out in the middle of a parking lot might be a different story tho.
It's like a lost and found, in a border town, asking 'bout a diamond ring. they look at you, like you've lost your mind sayin.. 'we haven't seen a thing..
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-11-2016).]
..Another one, I got a softball off the face at a ball game when i was about 15 and same thing, I got told I should have been standing somewhere else.
AND, you cant argue with the mentality, they just refuse to accept the idea that sometimes things DO happen that are no fault of the person they happen to. NO amount of arguing is ever going to change their view
Yes but did you go rob a bank because the softball hit you in the face, and if you did would it have been your fault?
Originally posted by Boondawg: What factors determines my cruising speed when left entirely up to me?
A balance between time spent & what feels safe to me?
It relates to your earlier questions. The question of how someone can not handle the honor system accurately is similar, (or commit crimes, etc) they use their own reasoning to say this particular action (whatever it is) is ok.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-11-2016).]
