I don't see theft and speeding as analogous. Speeding is not, in and of itself, immoral; but theft certainly is. To me, the important issue in this discussion is morality rather than law.
I think, to a large extent, law has little to do with it. Murder is illegal - yet people murder. Theft is illegal, but it doesn't stop shoplifters. I don't think the law against it is much of a deterrent to those who have motivation. Both of those things and more are forbidden in the Bible, yet even religious folks are guilty of transgressing those commandments. I don't consider a few MPH over the limit or rolling through a stop sign at an empty intersection in the same category, unless it's done with blatant disregard for others. Felony or reckless speeding is a different matter.
It's more an internal dialog of wrong vs. right and what informs that dialog in each individual. Some decisions are driven by morality, some by social norms, some by fear, some by guilt, some by example. Some may be driven by brain chemistry, compulsion, or mental illness. There have always been people who are incapable or uninterested in following the 'rules' we have all generally accepted as honorable behavior. "Back in the day" many of those people were put away in institutions, which is now considered cruel. Much of the question is nature vs. nurture, and whether any of those who are bad would be at all different with a different upbringing. I don't think there's any way to prove that. It's just part of the human condition. Maybe each person has a sixth-sense sort of moral compass that tends to point in one direction, and their upbringing and circumstances can influence it, but not fundamentally change it. I don't know - it's a philosophical question that's plagued us as a race since we could express the question "Why is there evil in the world?"
The other problem is one of interpretation - we all have our own limits. Maybe some think taking the candy bar is OK. Maybe some think that's OK, and it would also be OK if one were laying out on the counter. Some people think cheating on their taxes is OK, but they aren't serial murderers. How many people are perfectly OK cheating on their significant others? How many would give back money if they got too much change? Everyone has a line, but where does that line come from? Man's law? God's law? Dad's backhand?
I think, to a large extent, law has little to do with it. Murder is illegal - yet people murder. Theft is illegal, but it doesn't stop shoplifters. I don't think the law against it is much of a deterrent to those who have motivation. Both of those things and more are forbidden in the Bible, yet even religious folks are guilty of transgressing those commandments. I don't consider a few MPH over the limit or rolling through a stop sign at an empty intersection in the same category, unless it's done with blatant disregard for others. Felony or reckless speeding is a different matter.
It's more an internal dialog of wrong vs. right and what informs that dialog in each individual. Some decisions are driven by morality, some by social norms, some by fear, some by guilt, some by example. Some may be driven by brain chemistry, compulsion, or mental illness. There have always been people who are incapable or uninterested in following the 'rules' we have all generally accepted as honorable behavior. "Back in the day" many of those people were put away in institutions, which is now considered cruel. Much of the question is nature vs. nurture, and whether any of those who are bad would be at all different with a different upbringing. I don't think there's any way to prove that. It's just part of the human condition. Maybe each person has a sixth-sense sort of moral compass that tends to point in one direction, and their upbringing and circumstances can influence it, but not fundamentally change it. I don't know - it's a philosophical question that's plagued us as a race since we could express the question "Why is there evil in the world?"
The other problem is one of interpretation - we all have our own limits. Maybe some think taking the candy bar is OK. Maybe some think that's OK, and it would also be OK if one were laying out on the counter. Some people think cheating on their taxes is OK, but they aren't serial murderers. How many people are perfectly OK cheating on their significant others? How many would give back money if they got too much change? Everyone has a line, but where does that line come from? Man's law? God's law? Dad's backhand?
I don't see theft and speeding as analogous. Speeding is not, in and of itself, immoral; but theft certainly is. To me, the important issue in this discussion is morality rather than law.
Yeah I'm saying similar rationalizing takes place. The thief justifies his choice in his mind.
It's more an internal dialog of wrong vs. right and what informs that dialog in each individual.
The other problem is one of interpretation - we all have our own limits. Maybe some think taking the candy bar is OK. Maybe some think that's OK, and it would also be OK if one were laying out on the counter. Some people think cheating on their taxes is OK, but they aren't serial murderers. How many people are perfectly OK cheating on their significant others? How many would give back money if they got too much change? Everyone has a line, but where does that line come from? Man's law? God's law? Dad's backhand?
I don't see theft and speeding as analogous. Speeding is not, in and of itself, immoral; but theft certainly is. To me, the important issue in this discussion is morality rather than law.
Breaking the law is breaking the law.. 15 over,, like most do, is not a moving violation, it is a criminal offence .. called driving to endanger..
some might say you can do more damage to a person(s) life speeding/driving to endanger than you can taking a candy bar..
When were "honor boxes" the norm? Did we never have thieves until "this generation"... or "because of liberals"? Anyone remember why the cash register exists and who built it? There is no honor among thieves and thieves have always existed.
Seriously? You have honor boxes when you have little to lose and your clients are more interested in your product than your money. If it is a village, an honor box may work IF everyone knows each other and people know they have a good chance of being caught.
Times have not changed, liberals are not at fault, the sky is not falling...
Strangely enough I run into Honor Boxes all through Michigan. Perhaps it's the Northern section that has the issue.
But seriously, I work out of Michigan, and I see them out all summer long with produce, eggs, and various things for sale along the road.
I wonder if I would still go 10mph over if the limit was 70mph...or 80mph...or 90mph? What factors determines my cruising speed when left entirely up to me?
A balance between time spent & what feels safe to me?
As I've pointed out time and again I drive for a living. It's my belief, after driving in Texas where the speed limit is insanely high, and other places where it's "unlimited" (Never really unlimited) that there are several limits. I don't know the orders, but the car's ability to drive XX MPH would be one. A VW bus can only run so fast, and not everyone has a Vette. Another limiting factor would be the driver's feeling of safety. I know on the 80MPH hwy in Texas I passed many cars doing 65 and 70. The system is "naturally" punishing people. They drive fast and they pay a fine in the form of more fuel, or more repairs. Many more went under the limit than over. People still went over the limit, but very few.. Probably the same ones that take from honor boxes.
We have them here and downstate. What you notice is that honor boxes are for things of low value (where it is not practical for someone to sit there all day and watch the items). I have yet to seen an honor box for cell phones or jewelry.
quote
Originally posted by Fats:
Strangely enough I run into Honor Boxes all through Michigan. Perhaps it's the Northern section that has the issue.
But seriously, I work out of Michigan, and I see them out all summer long with produce, eggs, and various things for sale along the road.
Brad
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 05-11-2016).]
There are times when the law runs contrary to human decency. At those times, breaking the law is the right and moral thing to do. The American revolution and the civil rights movement are two good examples.
I don't see theft and speeding as analogous. Speeding is not, in and of itself, immoral; but theft certainly is. To me, the important issue in this discussion is morality rather than law.
When I was young we had a sermon at church. It covered obeying man's law (the law making you break God's law wasn't at issue back then) even if you didn't agree with man's law. Speeding was one of the things covered. Basically it was said that breaking the law, regardless of what law was immoral. There was no "small law" or "big law" they were all laws... Just forwarding what I was taught, not pushing a belief.
There are times when the law runs contrary to human decency. At those times, breaking the law is the right and moral thing to do. The American revolution and the civil rights movement are two good examples.
I'm not sure I'd call the American Revolution a moral victory. Perhaps I'm missing something. Care to elaborate?
Driving I see, and hear some things that make me question our ability to rationalize.
Ohio, driving through a work zone, nobody working (Not Active). 30+ miles of 50MPH signs, but two lanes still opened. Signs also say. "Trucks keep Right"
Except for the rare truck (1 in 50) that is actually doing 50MPH in the right lane, most trucks are going 65, with cars doing 70 when possible.
Then the lead truck comes upon that one guy doing the speed limit and passes him.. Suddenly the CB lights up with many drivers basically saying "I hope you get a ticket for going in that left lane".. (usually more vulgar)
... The sign right beside that "Trucks Right Lane" was "Speed Limit 50"... Why are they doing 65, 15 MPH over the "limit" and upset when someone breaks another arbitrary law? In my mind going 15 MPH over the speed limit is way worse than getting in the wrong lane. :/
BTW. The opposite happens when it's an "Active" work zone, only 1 in 50 trucks speed through. Even with us falling as far as I believe we have as a society people seem to at least try to respect human life... For the most part.
One would think that such a person would never steal... hmmm. Did his parents not beat him enough? Maybe he didn't have the fear of God instilled into him? Stealing from a church.... hmmm I wonder what special place in afterlife is reserved for one who does that?
________________ A former Saginaw Township fire chief charged with embezzling more than $100,000 from a Saginaw church is headed to Circuit Court for trial.
George W. Pike appeared before Saginaw County District Judge Kyle Higgs Tarrant on Friday, Feb. 26, and waived his right to a preliminary hearing, leading Tarrant to bind his case over to Circuit Court.
Pike, 70, is charged with embezzling more than $100,000, a felony that carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison, and single counts of forgery and uttering and publishing a forged check with intent to defraud.
His arrest warrant alleges he embezzled money from the trust fund of St. John Lutheran Church, 915 Federal in downtown Saginaw, from early 2011 through 2015.
Pike served as the church's council president, according to a report from WJRT, ABC 12.
I'm not sure I'd call the American Revolution a moral victory. Perhaps I'm missing something. Care to elaborate?
The Declaration of Independence lists many offenses against the colonists, among them are the following:
quote
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world: For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury: For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
One would think that such a person would never steal... hmmm. Did his parents not beat him enough? Maybe he didn't have the fear of God instilled into him? Stealing from a church.... hmmm I wonder what special place in afterlife is reserved for one who does that?
________________ A former Saginaw Township fire chief charged with embezzling more than $100,000 from a Saginaw church is headed to Circuit Court for trial.
George W. Pike appeared before Saginaw County District Judge Kyle Higgs Tarrant on Friday, Feb. 26, and waived his right to a preliminary hearing, leading Tarrant to bind his case over to Circuit Court.
Pike, 70, is charged with embezzling more than $100,000, a felony that carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison, and single counts of forgery and uttering and publishing a forged check with intent to defraud.
His arrest warrant alleges he embezzled money from the trust fund of St. John Lutheran Church, 915 Federal in downtown Saginaw, from early 2011 through 2015.
Pike served as the church's council president, according to a report from WJRT, ABC 12.
LMAO !!!!!!......If ya listen to some of the relio-nutbars around this city, you ARE stealing from them by not donating their sense of entitlement is so high that your money is already theirs and by not handing it over you are stealing from them. ....must think they are Revenue Canada
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 05-11-2016).]
I think, to a large extent, law has little to do with it. Murder is illegal - yet people murder. Theft is illegal, but it doesn't stop shoplifters. I don't think the law against it is much of a deterrent to those who have motivation. Both of those things and more are forbidden in the Bible, yet even religious folks are guilty of transgressing those commandments. I don't consider a few MPH over the limit or rolling through a stop sign at an empty intersection in the same category, unless it's done with blatant disregard for others. Felony or reckless speeding is a different matter.
It's more an internal dialog of wrong vs. right and what informs that dialog in each individual. Some decisions are driven by morality, some by social norms, some by fear, some by guilt, some by example. Some may be driven by brain chemistry, compulsion, or mental illness. There have always been people who are incapable or uninterested in following the 'rules' we have all generally accepted as honorable behavior. "Back in the day" many of those people were put away in institutions, which is now considered cruel. Much of the question is nature vs. nurture, and whether any of those who are bad would be at all different with a different upbringing. I don't think there's any way to prove that. It's just part of the human condition. Maybe each person has a sixth-sense sort of moral compass that tends to point in one direction, and their upbringing and circumstances can influence it, but not fundamentally change it. I don't know - it's a philosophical question that's plagued us as a race since we could express the question "Why is there evil in the world?"
The other problem is one of interpretation - we all have our own limits. Maybe some think taking the candy bar is OK. Maybe some think that's OK, and it would also be OK if one were laying out on the counter. Some people think cheating on their taxes is OK, but they aren't serial murderers. How many people are perfectly OK cheating on their significant others? How many would give back money if they got too much change? Everyone has a line, but where does that line come from? Man's law? God's law? Dad's backhand?
Perfection.*
*Perfection to me is all about the exploration. The examination of the possibility's....
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-11-2016).]
I'm not sure I'd call the American Revolution a moral victory. Perhaps I'm missing something. Care to elaborate?
The Declaration of Independence has a lengthy list of reasons.
quote
The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good. He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them. He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures. He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people. He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within. He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands. He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers. He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries. He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance. He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures. He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power. He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us: For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States: For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world: For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury: For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies: For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments: For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever. He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us. He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation. He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands. He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
As I've pointed out time and again I drive for a living. It's my belief, after driving in Texas where the speed limit is insanely high, and other places where it's "unlimited" (Never really unlimited) that there are several limits. I don't know the orders, but the car's ability to drive XX MPH would be one. A VW bus can only run so fast, and not everyone has a Vette. Another limiting factor would be the driver's feeling of safety. I know on the 80MPH hwy in Texas I passed many cars doing 65 and 70. The system is "naturally" punishing people. They drive fast and they pay a fine in the form of more fuel, or more repairs. Many more went under the limit than over. People still went over the limit, but very few.. Probably the same ones that take from honor boxes.
Brad
That's one of the things I see "posted" often on here from certain members that bugs me. "If you do the speed limit on the freeway your going to get run over". I don't spend a lot of time on the freeway, but from what I've noticed when on around here, that's just not true. All of our freeways have speed limits of 70, 75 or 80 MPH. Typically on a 3+ lane freeway, the slow lane is doing 60-65, middle 65-70 and fast 70 maybe a couple miles per hour more but not 10-15. Is there the occasional person who comes speeding 80+ through there? Yes but they are the exception not the rule. Even when I was driving to California and back, the 2 lane 80 MPH sections were about the same. 75ish in the slow and 75-80 in the passing. With my cruise set at about 77-78 I passed probably 20 or so cars for every car that passed me. I see more people obeying the limit than those who are breaking it and probably using "if I obey the limit I'll get run over" as their justification. That or the people here are more conscious of the laws and the speed limits elsewhere are much lower.
That's one of the things I see "posted" often on here from certain members that bugs me. "If you do the speed limit on the freeway your going to get run over". I don't spend a lot of time on the freeway, but from what I've noticed when on around here, that's just not true. All of our freeways have speed limits of 70, 75 or 80 MPH. Typically on a 3+ lane freeway, the slow lane is doing 60-65, middle 65-70 and fast 70 maybe a couple miles per hour more but not 10-15. Is there the occasional person who comes speeding 80+ through there? Yes but they are the exception not the rule. Even when I was driving to California and back, the 2 lane 80 MPH sections were about the same. 75ish in the slow and 75-80 in the passing. With my cruise set at about 77-78 I passed probably 20 or so cars for every car that passed me. I see more people obeying the limit than those who are breaking it and probably using "if I obey the limit I'll get run over" as their justification. That or the people here are more conscious of the laws and the speed limits elsewhere are much lower.
The two places I have most recently done highway driving - Massachusetts and Florida - have been as crazy as some have implied. The speed limit in Mass was 65, and it was impossible to go that slow even in the right lane unless you're driving in the middle of the night or you have a death wish. The traffic merging onto and off of the highway would kill you because they don't look and they don't stop. I'd say the left lane was 90, easy, all the time. Average was 75-80. Florida has speed limits as high as 75 on the highway, and if I go that speed in the middle lane I get passed constantly on both sides. I was doing 70 (70 zone) in the right lane the other day and a guy in a Jeep passed me in an exit lane and pulled back over in front of me. The trucks generally do 65 in the right lane regardless of the limit. It's nuts.
The two places I have most recently done highway driving - Massachusetts and Florida - have been as crazy as some have implied. The speed limit in Mass was 65, and it was impossible to go that slow even in the right lane unless you're driving in the middle of the night or you have a death wish. The traffic merging onto and off of the highway would kill you because they don't look and they don't stop. I'd say the left lane was 90, easy, all the time. Average was 75-80. Florida has speed limits as high as 75 on the highway, and if I go that speed in the middle lane I get passed constantly on both sides. I was doing 70 (70 zone) in the right lane the other day and a guy in a Jeep passed me in an exit lane and pulled back over in front of me. The trucks generally do 65 in the right lane regardless of the limit. It's nuts.
yup, 495 all day is 80+ in the slow lane, and the speed limit is 65 rte 24 is just as bad as everyone knows the cops hiding spots, rte 93/95/3/128/etc are only a tad more safe to do the speed limit, when you can, rush hour is a 5-10mph crawl..
Here's part of the problem with the whole Honor thing:
There's a commercial on my XM radio that angers me so much I change the channel every time. It goes something like this: "Are you mired in credit card debt? Don't let the credit card companies fool you into thinking you need to pay all of that debt. We can help you save thousands and pay only a fraction of the money you owe. Again, don't let credit companies fool you into thinking you need to pay." Huh. All this time, I've been fooled into thinking that I have to pay the bill.
Those evil, evil credit card companies - making people think they need to pay for all that stuff they bought. Really, it's OK to accumulate stuff and pass the cost on to others, especially when it's the evil banks. And how dare they give you a mortgage you knew you couldn't afford?! The nerve!
This is what people hear - what they're exposed to. Don't pay your debt. If something happens to you, sue somebody and make a windfall - lawyers are standing by to take your case. Are you sure you're getting all the government benefits you're entitled to? Call now. Student loan forgiveness!
Who are the role models in today's society, especially for kids without a cohesive family? It ain't Roy Rogers or Superman. The Kardashians? Pro athletes who get busted for drugs and wife-beating? Rappers? Donald and/or Hillary? Who are the authority figures now? Cops are no longer looked up to - and they're to blame for some of that. Our leaders at the local and national level are constantly under investigation or outright busted for corruption. How do you take any of these people seriously while still holding yourself and the people around you to a higher standard?
Here's part of the problem with the whole Honor thing:
There's a commercial on my XM radio that angers me so much I change the channel every time. It goes something like this: "Are you mired in credit card debt? Don't let the credit card companies fool you into thinking you need to pay all of that debt. We can help you save thousands and pay only a fraction of the money you owe. Again, don't let credit companies fool you into thinking you need to pay." Huh. All this time, I've been fooled into thinking that I have to pay the bill.
Those evil, evil credit card companies - making people think they need to pay for all that stuff they bought. Really, it's OK to accumulate stuff and pass the cost on to others, especially when it's the evil banks. And how dare they give you a mortgage you knew you couldn't afford?! The nerve!
This is what people hear - what they're exposed to. Don't pay your debt. If something happens to you, sue somebody and make a windfall - lawyers are standing by to take your case. Are you sure you're getting all the government benefits you're entitled to? Call now. Student loan forgiveness!
Ah, grasshopper thats where YOU have been fooled...google "fiat money" and "fractal banking". When you take out a "loan" the banks DO NOT loan you money--they create it out of thin air, just by entering some numbers into a ledger. IN TRUTH, they loaned you nothing, because it didnt exist until YOU signed the loan documents. You were lied to and defrauded into thinking they were loaning you something that existed. IT DID NOT EXIST until that moment in time....the entire money system and economy is nothing but a fraud and a sham, a house of cards, based on the CONSUMER being lied to....you might have an argument IF they had been "loaned" something of value in the 1st place---but that never happened.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 05-12-2016).]
Here's part of the problem with the whole Honor thing:
There's a commercial on my XM radio that angers me so much I change the channel every time. It goes something like this: "Are you mired in credit card debt? Don't let the credit card companies fool you into thinking you need to pay all of that debt. We can help you save thousands and pay only a fraction of the money you owe. Again, don't let credit companies fool you into thinking you need to pay." Huh. All this time, I've been fooled into thinking that I have to pay the bill.
Those evil, evil credit card companies - making people think they need to pay for all that stuff they bought. Really, it's OK to accumulate stuff and pass the cost on to others, especially when it's the evil banks. And how dare they give you a mortgage you knew you couldn't afford?! The nerve!
This is what people hear - what they're exposed to. Don't pay your debt. If something happens to you, sue somebody and make a windfall - lawyers are standing by to take your case. Are you sure you're getting all the government benefits you're entitled to? Call now. Student loan forgiveness!
Who are the role models in today's society, especially for kids without a cohesive family? It ain't Roy Rogers or Superman. The Kardashians? Pro athletes who get busted for drugs and wife-beating? Rappers? Donald and/or Hillary? Who are the authority figures now? Cops are no longer looked up to - and they're to blame for some of that. Our leaders at the local and national level are constantly under investigation or outright busted for corruption. How do you take any of these people seriously while still holding yourself and the people around you to a higher standard?
I don't agree here and this is why.. 2010 when I have the start of my health issues, I called every debt I had, from the hospital bed, to try to get in front of it, and work something out, like lower min payments until I got back healthy, so I'd not rack up 39.00+ fees for not making the min. They all told me to f'n bad, make the min payment or deal with the fee's.. Now I had no problem with paying back what I owed + interest, as I owed it, but the fee for not paying the min at 39.00 and then after a few months that + an over the limit fee of 45.00 That is on top of doubling down on the interest rate ballooning to 29% .. Now if I didn't try to get ahead of it, and called to work out lower min. until I got though this.. I'd be fine with it.. but when they are nailing you for 100.oo+ in fee's monthly, what you owed and what the balance becomes if hugely different.. Only 2 debt's agreed to work with me as long as I made some monthly payment, and they are the ones that got paid first.. the rest had to wait.. My home depot card that had a balance of 489.00 when I called them, was at 3875.00 within a year.. all fee's . do you honestly think it is ok to charge 2400.00 in 12 months??
This is why I'll pay cash for everything,, I never thought I'd be down and out from health problem.. and even when I tried to do the right thing they just kicked me in the teeth.. Then when I started being able to pay the min.. they changed the min payment amount from 3% of balance to 7% of balance.. I have no problem paying the 489.00 + the 9% that the card was at, but I do have a problem with them running fees up 2400.00 and then once you start paying the bill, they make it so you can't, so they can start pyle'n on the fees again.. I have no love for c/c banks.. they are scum..
their sense of entitlement is so high that your money is already theirs and by not handing it over you are stealing from them. 
....must think they are Revenue Canada
