At the shop I grew up & worked in, up on the counter was a tiered box with displayed candybars, including a spot in the box to voluntarily put the amount of money for the candy you took.
The other day (it actually happens quite a bit) at work a customer saw that someone the day before didn't get their candy off the jammed corkscrew spindle, (we provide a refund for that customer's loss) so he put his money in and intentionally chose that jammed one hopping to get the 2-for-the-price-of-one deal of the day.
When asked to return the extra one to the business (the one that had already been paid for by the business and reimbursed by the business to the customer who didn't get what he paid for at that time) he threw a fit saying it's not his fault that he got the "bonus" and that's just the way things go and some time ago he didn't get his candy and this is just the payback.
He was just getting back / even at these supposed "superior feeling" machines that screwed him over time & time again at other times in other places. He felt 100% justified.
When did this attitude toward the "Honor Box" change?
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AN award-winning turkey farmer has had to close the honesty shop he runs on the side of the road by his farm because of a recent spate of dishonesty.
Chris Rumming who keeps sheep and turkeys at the Lydiard Turkey Farm in West Swindon with his wife, Lindsay, has been running the Eggs and Stuff roadside enterprise successfully for some time.
"The shop had operated in the past with customers leaving their money honestly in a tin," said Chris. "The money was normally equal - or more than the stock taken.
But Chris told the Adver: "It saddens me greatly that in the past two weeks I have had all my stock stolen on two occasions and on one occasion it has been vandalised."
And he added: "The small amount of profit from our honesty shop used to be our holiday spending money."
Passing customers have always helped themselves to the produce on display on the roadside by the farm which has been mainly hens eggs as well as duck eggs and some home grown veg.
The produce is clearly marked with the price of each item and until now Chris has had no problems with people putting in the exact money or even a little bit more to round the price up to an even amount.
But after finding himself out of pocket he said: "I have decided that if someone is going to regularly steal everything I will have to stop.
"It's hard enough try to make a living from farming and this feels like a kick in the teeth.
"I will now replace the stock for a sign thanking my customers and explaining why it has had to end."
It is said that a small percent of population are commiting a large percent of the crimes we have in this world. It just takes one, if they find a place that uses the honor system, they'll probably become a regular "customer".
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-09-2016).]
when businesses became monsters and not local small local owned shops... this one might be, but the big shops have left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
Hard to feel for a shop when they charge 1.79+ for a bottle of pop.. that you can buy a 6 pack at a market for 3.29 just say'n
when businesses became monsters and not local small local owned shops... this one might be, but the big shops have left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
Hard to feel for a shop when they charge 1.79+ for a bottle of pop.. that you can buy a 6 pack at a market for 3.29 just say'n
Used to do the honor system 30+ years ago visiting my grandparents in Lancaster, PA. Leave X amount of $$$ for eggs, produce, etc... The money box was open and you could make change. Last year and this just 1½ weeks ago. Camp firewood. X amount of pieces for $$$$. Leave he money in the [locked] box. Never even thought about taking more than I paid for. Actually, left more because I couldn't make change.
There are still a few of those "honor" stands around here. They work well in small areas but as population increases, so do the number of thieves so they become impractical.
no, but most have has a vending machine take their cash and have to walk away.. so when they get a 2 fer, they call it even.. is it right, not really, but it's not mine to judge
Just out of college, I took a job in retail selling hardware, and it was a shock to me as to just how dishonest some people can be.
A few things that come to mind are;
New employees wore white name badges with the words "In Training" across the bottom. We had lots of people to come in when it was busy and single us out and tell us that the company does this for them all of the time, knowing that we would have to wait until someone was free or call a manager to find out if they really did. They were always very nice to you, too, and most new employees fell for some form of it.Including myself. The "In Training" name badges went out quietly when the style changed. So I guess that it was a problem.
We had people that would literally clean out an item if they found out that they could easily steal it and not get caught.We had someone that cleaned out every pocket knife that we had(over 70) before finally being caught when they constantly watched the new stock. He admitted to it, cried and begged for mercy, but you know where that got him.
We also had someone do the same thing with electrician's pliers. I never did understand why it didn't dawn on them that when large amounts of the same item go missing, people will notice and want to know where they are going.
A couple of times, I saw people come in the door right as we opened, went to some expensive item like a cordless drill display, cut the security cord, and go right back out in less than a minute. That seemed to work for them, but it took too many stones to do it, so I hardly ever saw it.
Now we had an honor box for popcorn on the wall, and it worked great. They used the money to buy new bags of popcorn and seasonings with the proceeds, and there were always plenty to buy it with. Of course, this was 1991, also.
when businesses became monsters and not local small local owned shops... this one might be, but the big shops have left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
Hard to feel for a shop when they charge 1.79+ for a bottle of pop.. that you can buy a 6 pack at a market for 3.29 just say'n
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Originally posted by williegoat:
Are you actually excusing thievery?
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Originally posted by E.Furgal:
no, but most have has a vending machine take their cash and have to walk away.. so when they get a 2 fer, they call it even.. is it right, not really, but it's not mine to judge
tr.v. ex·cused, ex·cus·ing, ex·cus·es 1. a. To make allowance for; overlook or forgive: Please excuse the interruption. b. To grant pardon to; forgive: We quickly excused the latecomer. 2. a. To apologize for (oneself) for an act that could cause offense: She excused herself for being late. b. To explain (a fault or offense) in the hope of being forgiven or understood; try to justify: He arrived late and excused his tardiness by blaming it on the traffic. See Synonyms at forgive. 3. To serve as justification for: Witty talk does not excuse bad manners. 4. To free, as from an obligation or duty; exempt: She was excused from jury duty because she knew the plaintiff. 5. To give permission to leave; release: The child ate quickly and asked to be excused.
And this is exactly why the honor system no longer works.
It's because people don't beat their kids - or their neighbors - often enough any more when they step out of line, thanks to all the libitard laws and such. There are no consequences these days...
So, it used to work because of the threat of physical violence?
Respect is taught at a young age through negative reinforcement. The earlier the lesson is learned, the less "violence" is required. Children will test limits and if they learn there are no limits and no negative consequences, they have no reason to respect anything or anyone.
It used to work for a variety of reasons, among those, because people had respect for others and their possessions. I can't say any of this surprises me after for years, watching millions of $$ worth of copyrighted material laughingly stolen that was fully intended to be purchased. That farmer won't miss a few ears of corn, a few eggs or a couple of leeks--he can always grow and produce more.
Although the human race slowly evolves over a very long period of time, societies do occasionally decay. The “old values” are enduring, because they have withstood the test of time. Individual factions within a society will, from time to time, test those values based on theory rather than practice. The theories sometimes fail the test, often with disastrous results.
We tried it one year and luckily the video camera caught the guy the first and second time the same guy did it, cleaned out the cooler of all of Amanda's eggs from her chicken house.
We didn't prosecute as it was only like 20 bucks worth of eggs but we did send the cops over to tell them that they were the reason the cooler would no longer be there. And that they stole from a handicapped Childs work. They still didn't even offer to pay some of what they stole. The cop really did want to arrest them after that, but we said just let it go.
Funny thing is before we used to have people pull into the driveway and ask to buy more after that, honestly because they maybe wanted almost all the eggs in the cooler and didn't want to deprive some one else of farm fresh eggs. But hey live and learn, live and learn.
You think physical violence reinforced that respect for others possessions? Why isn't it still used more to reinforce those values?
There is a world of difference between spanking and beating a kid out of anger and hate. The former can be a form of guidance, while the latter will almost certainly create a dangerously violent and destructive young man.
You think physical violence reinforced that respect for others possessions? Why isn't it still used more to reinforce those values?
Seems like the more evolved we get, the less effective we are at retaining those old values. I'm wondering if that's just natural progression.
We should care less about others because they are of no direct consequence to our survival. Therefore they are prey.
"I'm No. 1"...
It (what you referred to as 'physical violence') worked on most adolescents. Once a person grows older, it has a less lasting effect and removal of social activities (grounding etc) is now even being interpreted and seen as a form of parental mental cruelty directed toward 'children'. It's used less today because of social nonacceptance of corporal punishment--the worm has turned, and now those who normally might tend to deal out the punishment are afraid they will be punished for doing so. The "mommy didn't love me-daddy didn't hug me" rationalization for bad behavior has done it's job.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-10-2016).]
B/s.. it's called not judging their thinking... I'd not do it, but it's not mine to judge them.. clearly you feel you are the lord and can judge others.. LETS GET SOMETHING STRAIGHT RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW.. JUST BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND THE MIND SET THAT MIGHT BE BEHIND THE ACTIONS, DOES NOT IN ANY WAY, MEANS OR FORM , MEAN I CONDONE IT, OR AGREE WITH IT, BUT I WILL NOT JUDGE THEIR STANCE EITHER... Not my place.. other than if I see shoplifting to tell the management, what they do about it is up to them.. Now if someone is pointing a gun at a clerk and demanding money, I'll risk my life.... but that is clearly theft....
good day..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 05-10-2016).]
You think physical violence reinforced that respect for others possessions? Why isn't it still used more to reinforce those values?
Where do you think we learn respect? It starts at a young age with reliable boundaries and negative reinforcement. That doesn't always require "physical violence" as you like to put it. Being grounded or put in time out is also a form of negative reinforcement. The important part is the child learns there are lines that are not to be crossed and those lines are reliable. When parents set rules they must enforce those rules or the rules never existed.
It continues in adolescence as children scrap with one another on the playground. How many childhood friendships are formed after a playground "fight?" I'm sure in your travels you've witnessed this and that it's not a foreign concept to you.
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Originally posted by Boondawg: Seems like the more evolved we get, the less effective we are at retaining those old values. I'm wondering if that's just natural progression.
We should care less about others because they are of no direct consequence to our survival. Therefore they are prey.
"I'm No. 1"...
Humans evolved as pack animals for mutual defense and benefit. It's why we form communities today. Even those who rebel against society do it by forming gangs and other forms of groups. The values haven't gone anywhere even though they are constantly changing. Respect and dominance is one of, if not the, most important aspects of being accepted into a gang. Whether you're living on the street or in the board room, the social stature interactions are there in various forms.
Without negative consequences, there is no respect, and by extension, no honor.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-10-2016).]
Using the words "physical violence" seems to have evoked a negative tone in some of your responses. None-the-less, I think it is a legitimate question.
Words don't work in "training" humans in the difference between right & wrong? Because sometimes even hitting don't stop kids from stealing.
There has to be more going on inside the non-thief than just the lesson learned from a spanking years earlier...and begs the question why it's not going on in others.
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Originally posted by Formula88:
Without negative consequences, there is no respect, and by extension, no honor.
That makes respect forced through threat, and not freely given based on deeds... Is fear respect?
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-10-2016).]
There has to be more going on inside the non-thief than just the lesson learned from a spanking years earlier...and begs the question why it's not going on in others.
That makes respect forced through threat, and not freely given based on deeds... Is fear respect?
Respect and fear ARE in many-many instance one and the same thing. Humans are basically pack animals (keyword animals) all vying for the alpha position. Those who lack the physical or psychological attributes to get that position try other means in their fight to get there.
We are, really, not that much different than a pack of jackals.
Respect is taught at a young age through negative reinforcement. The earlier the lesson is learned, the less "violence" is required. Children will test limits and if they learn there are no limits and no negative consequences, they have no reason to respect anything or anyone.
This view is lost to the liberals of the world. They all now expect something for nothing and if they want it they just take it and do not see the problem. Reason the US is going in the sad direction it is now and the same reason the "honor box" system will not work anymore.
Respect is taught at a young age through negative reinforcement. The earlier the lesson is learned, the less "violence" is required. Children will test limits and if they learn there are no limits and no negative consequences, they have no reason to respect anything or anyone.
Sometimes, sometimes not...some people (kids) are born with an inner and inherent disgust for and refusal to accept blanket "authority" (In other words they were BORN free men and will stay that way). I was one of those kids, and as early as I can remember--grade 2 or 3-- was getting "punished" (the strap, suspensions, detentions) for stuff like throwing snowballs on the way home, or buying candy apples for a roadside vendor we had near the schools. My attitude was "I'm not on school property or on school hours, you don't tell me nothing, I'll do as I please" and no amount of "punishment" was ever going to change that....and really never did, the same attitude is still there except now its a LOT of those "social" workplaces I but heads with. Its probably the main reason I do well working alone or in very small teams and poorly in bigger more structured workplaces. It is ALSO one of the reasons (not the only one, I do love nature and animals) that I do very well living ruraly and poorly urbanly. (Nobody around to get in my way or try to tell me "you don't do it that way", "you cant do that here", ect. It keeps down the arguments, fights, and bloodshed.
Some of us WERE really "born that way" and will, all our lives, have total disregard for petty rules and some "social norms" and really DONT care who gets offended or upset or doesn't understand it....in my case its not theft as in this thread that's the issue, its power and control. In my life, I AM the alpha, and the only reason I need is its MY life, not anybody else's, and I'd rather live alone miles from no-where than be submissive to somebody else.
That's probably also why when I 1st read Ayn Rand in my teens it "clicked" with me instantly. It was like everything I already knew inwardly was there in those books in writing. LOL, for a few years I was very obnoxious about it. WORSE than a door-knocker combined with a collection agent if ya believe that's possible
In the context of this thread, ask me to return or pay for the second chocolate bar and there is no issue....try and tell me I cant eat it here, and you have a serious problem on your hands. Try and force the issue and I will (perfectly legally) bring down a level of retaliation that will make you wish you had never gotten out of bed that day.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 05-10-2016).]
Originally posted by Boondawg: Using the words "physical violence" seems to have evoked a negative tone in some of your responses.
That's to be expected since your use of the words "physical violence" seems to have attached a negative connotation to any form of non-verbal discipline. Isn't it great how ideas can be so effectively communicated?
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Originally posted by Boondawg: That makes respect forced through threat, and not freely given based on deeds...
Respect must be earned, not just given. The videos I posted explain it better than I can in a short online post. Fear of punishment is one form of negative reinforcement. My point was not all negative reinforcement is "physical violence" but some may be, if you classify spanking as violence.
I would hope there's more going on in the non-thief's mind than just a spanking. Early childhood discipline is the beginning, not the sum total of the lessons an individual must learn. If you open your perspective to view more than just what you consider violence you'll see there are more lessons at play here than beatings.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-10-2016).]
Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: Some of us WERE really "born that way" and will, all our lives, have total disregard for petty rules and some "social norms" and really DONT care who gets offended or upset or doesn't understand it
You should never assume that because a statement is made about possibilities that it's intended to mean that is the only possibility. Just as each individual has different physical and mental abilities, they all learn social norms and adhere to or rebel against them in different ways. The idea behind how the lessons are taught doesn't change because someone refuses to or is unable to learn the lesson. Why do some families have 1 child that is a straight arrow and another that's a hellion when they both grew up in the same house under the same rules? There's never going to be a blanket rule that applies equally across the board.
When were "honor boxes" the norm? Did we never have thieves until "this generation"... or "because of liberals"? Anyone remember why the cash register exists and who built it? There is no honor among thieves and thieves have always existed.
Seriously? You have honor boxes when you have little to lose and your clients are more interested in your product than your money. If it is a village, an honor box may work IF everyone knows each other and people know they have a good chance of being caught.
Times have not changed, liberals are not at fault, the sky is not falling...
incorrect, respect is a given that can be lost by ones actions..
Do you respect your elders or make them earn it first??
It is the same with everything , I respect everyone until they give me a reason not to... when that happens THEN THEY HAVE TO WORK TO EARN THAT RESPECT BACK..
Originally posted by Boondawg: You think physical violence reinforced that respect for others possessions? Why isn't it still used more to reinforce those values?
Seems like the more evolved we get, the less effective we are at retaining those old values. I'm wondering if that's just natural progression.
We should care less about others because they are of no direct consequence to our survival. Therefore they are prey.
"I'm No. 1"...
Its a natural degeneration. You said it, old values, they aren't wanted, "we" want to be as degenerate as we want to be. If we start saying something is wrong, then well that limits us too, somewhere, right? People just began to shut up and butt out. Some folks think that's what is best but they are worng and they know it, or they will down the road. But they probably just think they'll be gone before it gets too bad.
If the parent doesn't lead by example, or isn't even there, generations will sink lower sooner. If society doesn't reinforce the values, If there is no real right or wrong, If I'm ok you're ok, If its not my problem, If mind your own business, its not hurting you personally is the way of the land...
Words don't work in "training" humans in the difference between right & wrong? Because sometimes even hitting don't stop kids from stealing.
There has to be more going on inside the non-thief than just the lesson learned from a spanking years earlier...and begs the question why it's not going on in others.
Using the words "physical violence" seems to have evoked a negative tone in some of your responses. None-the-less, I think it is a legitimate question.
Words don't work in "training" humans in the difference between right & wrong? Because sometimes even hitting don't stop kids from stealing.
There has to be more going on inside the non-thief than just the lesson learned from a spanking years earlier...and begs the question why it's not going on in others.
That makes respect forced through threat, and not freely given based on deeds... Is fear respect?
Most experts believe psychopaths and sociopaths share a similar set of traits. People like this have a poor inner sense of right and wrong. They also can’t seem to understand or share another person’s feelings. But there are some differences, too.
Do They Have a Conscience? A key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong, says L. Michael Tompkins, EdD. He's a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center.
A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not “found out,” Tompkins says.
A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop his behavior.
Both lack empathy, the ability to stand in someone else’s shoes and understand how they feel. But a psychopath has less regard for others, says Aaron Kipnis, PhD, author of The Midas Complex. Someone with this personality type sees others as objects he can use for his own benefit.
They’re Not Always Violent In movies and TV shows, psychopaths and sociopaths are usually the villains who kill or torture innocent people. In real life, some people with antisocial personality disorder can be violent, but most are not. Instead they use manipulation and reckless behavior to get what they want.
“At worst, they’re cold, calculating killers,” Kipnis says. Others, he says, are skilled at climbing their way up the corporate ladder, even if they have to hurt someone to get there.
If you recognize some of these traits in a family member or coworker, you may be tempted to think you’re living or working with a psychopath or sociopath. But just because a person is mean or selfish, it doesn’t necessarily mean he has a disorder.
It’s not easy to spot a psychopath. They can be intelligent, charming, and good at mimicking emotions. They may pretend to be interested in you, but in reality, they probably don’t care.
“They’re skilled actors whose sole mission is to manipulate people for personal gain,” Tompkins says.
Sociopaths are less able to play along. They make it plain that they’re not interested in anyone but themselves. They often blame others and have excuses for their behavior.
Some experts see sociopaths as “hot-headed.” They act without thinking how others will be affected.
Psychopaths are more “cold-hearted” and calculating. They carefully plot their moves, and use aggression in a planned-out way to get what they want. If they’re after more money or status in the office, for example, they’ll make a plan to take out any barriers that stand in the way, even if it’s another person’s job or reputation.
incorrect, respect is a given that can be lost by ones actions..
Do you respect your elders or make them earn it first??
It is the same with everything , I respect everyone until they give me a reason not to... when that happens THEN THEY HAVE TO WORK TO EARN THAT RESPECT BACK..
Don't confuse having respect for someone with treating someone in a respectful manner. Until you know a person there is nothing to base that respect on. It is possible to treat someone with respect whom you have no respect for. That is based as much on your self-respect as it is respect for another.
Don't confuse having respect for someone with treating someone in a respectful manner. Until you know a person there is nothing to base that respect on. It is possible to treat someone with respect whom you have no respect for. That is based as much on your self-respect as it is respect for another.
well then I'm odd. as I start everyone out with the same respect bank account balance.. and their actions either add or debit from that... maybe it was the way I was raised
Originally posted by Formula88: That's to be expected since your use of the words "physical violence" seems to have attached a negative connotation to any form of non-verbal discipline.
Physical violence is the deliberate use of physical force with the potential for causing harm. So it is used to instill a "fear of harm" as a means of behavioral control?
I agree that pain is a great motivator for doing another's forced bidding (perceived good OR bad). It makes a quick, fast, lesson-learner.
But the question remains: Without the fear of physical pain as punishment, why do some still not steal? Or vise-versa? Can it be inherent?
I believe someone here sometime ago stated that without The Bible or Religion, Man would not know right from wrong. Is right & wrong merely forced perception?
Is stealing from someone wrong because you are taught that it is, or is it inherently wrong because of the way it makes you feel inside when stealing happens to you? Is a swat just a shortcut to that feeling of having something stolen from you?
Once when I was very young and I stole a toy from the store, my dad made me take it back, and than he threw all my other toys away. I guess that was supposed to embarrass me as a thief, and than teach me what it felt like to have stuff stolen from me?
The point is, I don't see a lot of kids I have contact with today stealing, despite their parents never laying a hand on them. Others steal like it was their privilege.
Just wondering if it has more to do with what's naturally inside, than out (side influences).
Originally posted by Boondawg: Does everyone have some degree of that in them?
I think it probably is a scale, sure. I mean I doubt it's all or nothing. One sign is the fact they there is a difference between sociopath and psychopath.
Also interesting is the research on how well a kid who "is" one usually turns out when they grow up in a loving family and are taught values.
