Where as you claim to have read it but have no comment?
I said I found it a great read and enlightening. As for specific comments I don't feel that many bothered to read it so I'm not sure anyone wants a discussion of the points made or would rather make their own assumptions and assertions about "white trash".
Have you read the full article and would you like a discussion about its points??
I said I found it a great read and enlightening. As for specific comments I don't feel that many bothered to read it so I'm not sure anyone wants a discussion of the points made or would rather make their own assumptions and assertions about "white trash".
Have you read the full article and would you like a discussion about its points??
I found it had viewpoints I already knew about, so it didn't necessarily enlighten me.
Why not discuss its points, see what becomes of it? Maybe someone will respond, maybe not? You came in to say it enlightened you and inferred that no one else must have read it. You can assume whatever youd like, but if you don't have any comments other than to say you liked it but not mention what you liked, what enlightened you, etc, then the others comments are just as valid and a more enjoyable read. IMO
I found it had viewpoints I already knew about, so it didn't necessarily enlighten me.
Why not discuss its points, see what becomes of it? Maybe someone will respond, maybe not? You came in to say it enlightened you and inferred that no one else must have read it. You can assume whatever youd like, but if you don't have any comments other than to say you liked it but not mention what you liked, what enlightened you, etc, then the others comments are just as valid and a more enjoyable read. IMO
I agree others comments are just as valid.
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
I found it had viewpoints I already knew about, so it didn't necessarily enlighten me.
Really?? I had no idea that some of the authors of such hallowed words as "that every man is created equal" basically believed the exact opposite. Which I always found ironic when it came to blacks and women but I didn't know they considered other white men as lesser as well.
quote
The Founding Fathers were, as Isenberg sees it, complicit in perpetuating these stark class divides. George Washington believed that only the “lower class of people” should serve as foot soldiers in the Continental Army. Thomas Jefferson envisioned his public schools educating talented students “raked from the rubbish” of the lower class, and argued that ranking humans like animal breeds was perfectly natural. “The circumstance of superior beauty is thought worthy of attention in the propagation of our horses, dogs and other domestic animals,” he wrote. “Why not that of man?” John Adams believed the “passion for distinction” was a powerful human force: “There must be one, indeed, who is the last and lowest of the human species.”
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-10-2016).]
You clearly have no issue using that word that many spent their life to stop being used.. so you are better than none..
Though I'm personally appreciative of your apparent empathy for the struggles of the African diasopra, I must admit that I don't fully grasp the degree of angst you seem to be experiencing. You can continue to employ whatever verbiage you wish, as I have no doubt you presently do. It's just not as socially acceptable as once it was. Behind closed doors, in the company of like-minded individuals or between your ears, no one can control what you think or say.
If you somehow feel communicatively limited by the recent disapproval of those more enlightened individuals regarding the use of the word, feel free to invent another. I have no doubt you've already given it some thought.
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 08-12-2016).]
Though I'm personally appreciative of your apparent empathy for the struggles of the African diasopra, I must admit that I don't fully grasp the degree of angst you seem to be experiencing. You can continue to employ whatever verbiage you wish, as I have no doubt you presently do. It's just not socially acceptable as once it was. Behind closed doors, in the company of like-minded individuals or between your ears, no one can control what you think or say.
If you somehow feel communicatively limited by the recent disapproval of those more enlightened individuals regarding the use of the word, feel free to invent another. I have no doubt you've already given it some thought.
No, Folks that respect what others have done for colored folks to be free and not looked down at, don't use that word.. so cut the crap.. I'm sure you got a warm feeling and wood everytime the news reported someone loosing it all that used that word,, that isn't colored.. but you use it.. That is the @#$%^&*()*&^%$#...
Really?? I had no idea that some of the authors of such hallowed words as "that every man is created equal" basically believed the exact opposite. Which I always found ironic when it came to blacks and women but I didn't know they considered other white men as lesser as well.
quote
The Founding Fathers were, as Isenberg sees it, complicit in perpetuating these stark class divides. George Washington believed that only the “lower class of people” should serve as foot soldiers in the Continental Army. Thomas Jefferson envisioned his public schools educating talented students “raked from the rubbish” of the lower class, and argued that ranking humans like animal breeds was perfectly natural. “The circumstance of superior beauty is thought worthy of attention in the propagation of our horses, dogs and other domestic animals,” he wrote. “Why not that of man?” John Adams believed the “passion for distinction” was a powerful human force: “There must be one, indeed, who is the last and lowest of the human species.”
Nancy Isenberg is your "authority"? Seriously?
You're a great example of when a leftie gets his "facts" unquestioningly from another Leftist.
"The Founding Fathers were, as Isenberg sees it, complicit in perpetuating these stark class divides"
A small sample of Berstein and Isenberg "gems" of opinions cloaked in leftist distortions and outright lies of American history.
Lets focus back on the Isenberg reference you like, shall we?
Isenberg lying : "Thomas Jefferson envisioned his public schools educating talented students “raked from the rubbish” of the lower class..."
What Jefferson *actually* wrote, but lefties are too lazy to read for themselves:
..
"The bill [on Education in the Revised Code of Virginia] proposes to lay off every county into small districts of five or six miles square, called hundreds, and in each of them to establish a school for teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic. The tutor to be supported by the hundred, and every person in it entitled to send their children three years gratis, and as much longer as they please, paying for it. These schools to be under a visitor who is annually to choose the boy of best genius in the school, of those whose parents are too poor to give them further education, and to send him forward to one of the grammar schools, of which twenty are proposed to be erected in different parts of the country, for teaching Greek, Latin, geography, and the higher branches of numerical arithmetic.
Of the boys thus sent in any one year, trial is to be made at the grammar schools one or two years, and the best genius of the whole selected, and continued six years, and the residue dismissed. By this means twenty of the best geniuses will be raked from the rubbish annually, and be instructed at the public expense, so far as the grammar schools go. At the end of six years instruction, one half are to be discontinued (from among whom the grammar schools will probably be supplied with future masters) : and the other half, who are to be chosen for the superiority of their parts and disposition, are to be sent and continued three years in the study of such sciences as they shall choose, at William and Mary College. ...
The ultimate result of the whole scheme of education would be the teaching all the children of the State reading, writing, and common arithmetic; turning out ten annually of superior genius, well taught in Greek. Latin, geography, and the higher branches of arithmetic; turning out ten others annually, of still superior parts, who. to those branches of learning, shall have added such branches of the sciences as their genius shall have led them to; the further furnishing to the wealthier part of the people convenient schools at which their children may be educated at their own expense."
From: Notes On Virginia. viii, 388. Ford Ed., iii, 251. (1782.), as quoted in The Jefferson Cyclopedia, a comprehensive collection of the views of Thomas Jefferson, Ed. John P. Foley, Funk and Wagnalls Company, New York, 1900, page 275.
Sure reads similar to the meritocracy in public schools we have today and an early state scholarship program, (at least until the modern soft racism of "affirmative action" replaced actual achievement )
Your "authority" Isenberg sure doesn't let that, (or the truth) get in the way of her leftist "class warfare" and anti-American ideology, does she?
We can move on to Isenberg's lies and distortions on Washingtom and Adams later if need be.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 08-12-2016).]
I admit that when I was a child in NW Illinois in the late 40's, I didn't know any other word to describe black people. I don't recall my parents ever using the term so it was probably something I picked up from neighborhood or school friends. There were no blacks in the town where we lived and none in the elementary school I attended. I soon found out that the term was offensive and stopped using it.
Lets focus back on the Isenberg reference you like, shall we?
Isenberg lying : "Thomas Jefferson envisioned his public schools educating talented students “raked from the rubbish” of the lower class..."
What Jefferson *actually* wrote, but lefties are too lazy to read for themselves:
..
"The bill [on Education in the Revised Code of Virginia] proposes to lay off every county into small districts of five or six miles square, called hundreds, and in each of them to establish a school for teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic. The tutor to be supported by the hundred, and every person in it entitled to send their children three years gratis, and as much longer as they please, paying for it. These schools to be under a visitor who is annually to choose the boy of best genius in the school, of those whose parents are too poor to give them further education, and to send him forward to one of the grammar schools, of which twenty are proposed to be erected in different parts of the country, for teaching Greek, Latin, geography, and the higher branches of numerical arithmetic.
Of the boys thus sent in any one year, trial is to be made at the grammar schools one or two years, and the best genius of the whole selected, and continued six years, and the residue dismissed. By this means twenty of the best geniuses will be raked from the rubbish annually, and be instructed at the public expense, so far as the grammar schools go. At the end of six years instruction, one half are to be discontinued (from among whom the grammar schools will probably be supplied with future masters) : and the other half, who are to be chosen for the superiority of their parts and disposition, are to be sent and continued three years in the study of such sciences as they shall choose, at William and Mary College. ...
The ultimate result of the whole scheme of education would be the teaching all the children of the State reading, writing, and common arithmetic; turning out ten annually of superior genius, well taught in Greek. Latin, geography, and the higher branches of arithmetic; turning out ten others annually, of still superior parts, who. to those branches of learning, shall have added such branches of the sciences as their genius shall have led them to; the further furnishing to the wealthier part of the people convenient schools at which their children may be educated at their own expense."
From: Notes On Virginia. viii, 388. Ford Ed., iii, 251. (1782.), as quoted in The Jefferson Cyclopedia, a comprehensive collection of the views of Thomas Jefferson, Ed. John P. Foley, Funk and Wagnalls Company, New York, 1900, page 275.
Sure reads similar to the meritocracy in public schools we have today and an early state scholarship program, (at least until the modern soft racism of "affirmative action" replaced actual achievement )
Your "authority" Isenberg sure doesn't let that, (or the truth) get in the way of her leftist "class warfare" and anti-American ideology, does she?
We can move on to Isenberg's lies and distortions on Washingtom and Adams later if need be.
I'm missing how this shows that Jefferson didn't subscribe to their being different classes of people? We can certainly debate that he may have thought of other white people as "rubbish". We can also debate that what he thought of black people and women in terms of equality too.
Really?? I had no idea that some of the authors of such hallowed words as "that every man is created equal" basically believed the exact opposite. Which I always found ironic when it came to blacks and women but I didn't know they considered other white men as lesser as well
Obviously they did believe, that even tho all were created equal, it didn't equate to staying equal and/or being treated equal, tho I have to wonder if it isn't (wasn't) more a case of simply viewing themselves as having 'risen above the flotsam and jetsom of the unwashed masses" and therefore reducing everyone else to a lower class by virtue of their own own perceived bourgeois stature in the world.
I'm missing how this shows that Jefferson didn't subscribe to their being different classes of people? We can certainly debate that he may have thought of other white people as "rubbish". We can also debate that what he thought of black people and women in terms of equality too.
That matter was addressed years ago....as it relates to Black women anyway.
Yeh, given my upcoming court date to finally be rid of her, please don't mention black women, man........OR how one turns from a cute 90-pound island girl to a 300 pound "oh, sheet somebody let godzilla loose".
If I later claim I was askeered for my life-----I really am !!!!!!!
I cannot improve your reading comprehension skills for you. Perhaps you are one of those that Jefferson says that the "raking" should leave behind while the brighter, more accomplished move on to higher education.
Perhaps it also may be your leftist belief that somehow equality of *opportunity* must therefore equal equality of *outcome*....
(hint: it doesn't)
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 08-12-2016).]
Originally posted by newf: I'm missing how this shows that Jefferson didn't subscribe to their being different classes of people? We can certainly debate that he may have thought of other white people as "rubbish".
You know the phrase you are what you eat? Its kinda like that, in a way, you are what you do. The actions and choices you make. Your character. If you look back at some of the comments made in this thread, you can see how they relate. Everyone has potential, people who are lazy, thieves, etc, perhaps they are to a society the same value as rubbish.
I cannot improve your reading comprehension skills for you. Perhaps you are one of those that Jefferson says that the "raking" should leave behind while the brighter, more accomplished move on to higher education.
Perhaps it also may be your leftist belief that somehow equality of *opportunity* must therefore equal equality of *outcome*....
(hint: it doesn't)
Ah so you believe Jefferson saw everyone including blacks and women as equal?
You know the phrase you are what you eat? Its kinda like that, in a way, you are what you do. The actions and choices you make. Your character. If you look back at some of the comments made in this thread, you can see how they relate. Everyone has potential, people who are lazy, thieves, etc, perhaps they are to a society the same value as rubbish.
Yet as the article points out many believed that it didn't matter how hard someone works or what actions one makes if they are considered lesser humans. The ideal and reality often are at odds. As is often the truth and glorified history. Many people are flawed but that doesn't mean they haven't done some great things.
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-12-2016).]
Ah so you believe that you can just sidestep any discussion of what Jefferson *actually* wrote and Isenberg lied about?
Ah so you believe that you can simply jump to what *I* think without a cogent response of your own to the issue at hand?
Ah so.
tap tap tap tippity tap We've seen this dance of yours before.
True enough I should have compiled a more thought out and appropriate response. It's a pretty in depth topic and I'm on my phone so I probably should have waited to respond to be honest.
I'm not saying her book, which i havent read, is complete truth or not as with most books on history, though I do think she and the article itself made some great points about how people and classes were and are perceived by others and who has the upper hand so to speak etc. I don't see what I read as lies persay, she may have a point and it still doesn't change the fact that he certainly did not believe ALL men were equal. So is it that big of a stretch to think he may have thought there were lesser whites as well? Not really IMO but just reading that snippet hasn't convinced me completely.
I'll probably have more time to read about it next week. Feel free to simmer with your apparent anger until I have a better chance to respond.
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-12-2016).]
Ah yes of course. 
