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Brain cramp! Which beaker will be full first? by Raydar
Started on: 10-25-2016 01:58 PM
Replies: 59 (1755 views)
Last post by: Formula88 on 10-31-2016 09:42 PM
Raydar
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Report this Post10-25-2016 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MidEngineManiacSend a Private Message to MidEngineManiacEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yer azz.....full of my foot for making me think !!!!!

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4
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Report this Post10-25-2016 02:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

2.5

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Though it may depend how fast that faucet lets water out.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-25-2016).]

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Report this Post10-25-2016 02:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Marvin McInnisClick Here to visit Marvin McInnis's HomePageSend a Private Message to Marvin McInnisEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As drawn, in the static case (i.e. assuming fluid flow rates low enough to maintain equilibrium conditions): 3 & 4 will be full (first) at exactly the same time. If fluid viscosity is significant, all bets are off but conditions would tend to favor #3. If fluid viscosity is very high, it will overflow beaker #1 first.

(And yes, the airplane will fly.)

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 10-27-2016).]

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Report this Post10-25-2016 02:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis:

As drawn, and assuming equilibrium fluid flow: 3 & 4 will be full (first) at exactly the same time. If fluid viscosity is significant, all bets are off but conditions would tend to favor #3.

(And yes, the airplane will fly.)



I'll drink what ever one fills first, as long as it's beer.
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Report this Post10-25-2016 03:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As stated, disregarding viscosity of the liquid, beakers 3 and 4 will fill at the same time.
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Report this Post10-25-2016 04:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
#3 will fill first.

Containers #1 and #2 are elevated above container #3

P = 0.43 x h

Container #4 cannot begin filling until the fluid level is equal to the outlet height of the "J" tube coming from the bottom of container #3

Note that containers #3 and #4 are at the same relative height so static pressure will be equal.

Once container #4 begins to fill, container # 3 will transfer fluid to #4 at approximately the same rate as it is receiving from container #2

The fluid in this circuit must always pass *from* #3 *to* #4 so for a brief moment #3 will brim first

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 10-25-2016).]

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Report this Post10-25-2016 04:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:

#3 will fill first.

Containers #1 and #2 are elevated above container #3

P = 0.43 x h

Container #4 cannot begin filling until the fluid level is equal to the outlet height of the "J" tube coming from the bottom of container #3

Note that containers #3 and #4 are at the same relative height so static pressure will be equal.

The fluid in this circuit must always pass *from* #3 *to* #4 so for a brief moment #3 will brim first



I was thinking the same except thought there may be some sort of pressure , more weight of fluid to cause 4 to fill 1st.

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Report this Post10-25-2016 04:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK. Which one will be the last to be full? (assuming no flow restrictions in any of the interconnecting tubes)

[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 10-25-2016).]

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Report this Post10-25-2016 05:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

OK. Which one will be the last to be full? (assuming no flow restrictions in any of the interconnecting tubes)




My untrained mind says 1.
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Report this Post10-25-2016 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


My untrained mind says 1.


It *could*. That is why Marvin said:

 
quote
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis:

As drawn, and assuming equilibrium fluid flow:


Lacking additional data, we are forced to *assume* that the flow rate out of the faucet into container #1 is *equal* to, or less than, the flow rate of the tube connecting #1 and #2.

IF the flow rate out of the faucet is sufficiently higher than the flow capacity of the tube connecting #1 and #2, then even allowing for P= 0.43 X h, ( static pressure increase ), container #1 *could* fill first.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 10-25-2016).]

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Report this Post10-25-2016 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If the flow out of the faucet is less than the flow capacity of the tubes, 3 and 4 fill at the same time.
If the flow rate out of the faucet is faster than the capacity of the tubes, then 1 will always fill first.

assuming 3 & 4 are at the exact same level - it appears so in the picture
assuming the tubes all flow the same rate
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Report this Post10-25-2016 10:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Max The ChainsawClick Here to visit Max The Chainsaw's HomePageSend a Private Message to Max The ChainsawEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

OK. Which one will be the last to be full? (assuming no flow restrictions in any of the interconnecting tubes)




I would say #4 would be the last one full. It would be just a fraction later than #3. #1 and #2 won't ever fill, the fluid will spill out of the top of #3 and #4 before 1 and 2 can fill.

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Report this Post10-26-2016 12:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you look very closely at the image, beaker #4 is ever-so-slightly taller than #3. That means #4 can never be completely full, because #3 will overflow first. So only beaker #3 can fill completely. Beaker #4 will be almost full. Beaker #2 will never fill higher than the top of beaker #3. And beaker #1 will never fill higher than its output tube.

Of course, this assumes the flow rate of the spigot is lesser than or equal to the flow rates of the interconnecting tubes.
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Report this Post10-26-2016 06:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
3 will fill to the bottom of the fill tube of 4 then 4 will start to fill. Once 3 & 4 are filled they will begin to over flow, 1 & 2 will never fill because 3 & 4 are lower and will over flow before they would reach full levels of liquid.
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Report this Post10-26-2016 11:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


assuming the tubes all flow the same rate


That's what I was thinking though, would the tube from 3 to 4 flow faster due to the weight of fluid above it?
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Report this Post10-26-2016 11:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

2.5

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quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

If you look very closely at the image, beaker #4 is ever-so-slightly taller than #3. .


I cant tell.
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Report this Post10-26-2016 02:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mickey_MooseClick Here to visit Mickey_Moose's HomePageSend a Private Message to Mickey_MooseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:

#3 will fill first.

Containers #1 and #2 are elevated above container #3

P = 0.43 x h

Container #4 cannot begin filling until the fluid level is equal to the outlet height of the "J" tube coming from the bottom of container #3

Note that containers #3 and #4 are at the same relative height so static pressure will be equal.

Once container #4 begins to fill, container # 3 will transfer fluid to #4 at approximately the same rate as it is receiving from container #2

The fluid in this circuit must always pass *from* #3 *to* #4 so for a brief moment #3 will brim first



What he said.
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Report this Post10-26-2016 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ray? The suspense...
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Report this Post10-26-2016 05:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dependant on whether the flow rate into #3 overwhelms the tube to #4, both will fill at the same time. They are effectively the same tank due to the configuration of the interconnecting piping.
I designed and used setups like this in waste water treatment systems and rinse tank systems in the electroplating industry for decades.
If the flow rate into #3 is greater than the flow capacity of the connecting piping, then #3 will fill first.

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Report this Post10-26-2016 05:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If, filled means to the brim, Three must be filled the spout point to begin passing fluid onto 4 but, once the fluid in 4 has reach the fill point, three will reach it's brim slightly ahead of 4.

Yes, the plane will take off!!
------------------
Ron

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?

Definition of a home owner, "see the door threshold, without my permission, there and no futher.......

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[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 10-26-2016).]

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Report this Post10-26-2016 05:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
#4

Kevin
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Report this Post10-27-2016 10:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:
If you look very closely at the image, beaker #4 is ever-so-slightly taller than #3. That means #4 can never be completely full, because #3 will overflow first. So only beaker #3 can fill completely. Beaker #4 will be almost full. Beaker #2 will never fill higher than the top of beaker #3. And beaker #1 will never fill higher than its output tube.


Given how slim the margin is, did you take into account the surface tension of the fluid? #3 could be ever so slightly overfull before it breaks surface tension and runs down the side. That could be enough to make up for the tiny difference between #3 and #4 or are you assuming the fluid is a perfectly straight line?


The photo appears to be a drawing on a chalk board.
What is the precision level offered by a drawing utensil the size of a stick of chalk?
All arguments have to make assumptions in the absence of explicitly stated info. You're assuming #4 is taller by a fraction that appears to be smaller than the lines used to make the drawing.

I would offer some general assumptions:
All beakers are the same size.
#1 is higher than #3 & #4.
#2 is higher than #3 & #4 but lower than #1.
#4 & #3 are at the same height level.
All tubes between beakers have the same flow capacity.
The flow from the faucet into #1 is less than the flow capacity of the tubes between the beakers.
Optional: Assume fluid is water since the drawing appears to be a typical hose bib.

Measure with micrometer.
Mark with chalk.
Cut with chainsaw.

(an answer cannot be more precise than the data use to reach the conclusion)

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 10-27-2016).]

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Report this Post10-27-2016 10:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:
All arguments have to make assumptions in the absence of explicitly stated info.


Welcome to my life... LOL

Even as a tiny kid my mother couldn't understand why I had so many questions.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-27-2016).]

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Report this Post10-27-2016 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Marvin McInnisClick Here to visit Marvin McInnis's HomePageSend a Private Message to Marvin McInnisEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For a pessimist, the beaker is half empty.
For an optimist, the beaker is half full.
For an engineer, the beaker is twice as big as it needs to be.

... Then there is the occasional philistine, who actually goes out into the field and measures the beaker.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 10-27-2016).]

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Report this Post10-27-2016 08:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'll add to my post. Not only will 4 fill first, it will be the only one to fill and overflow.

Kevin
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Report this Post10-27-2016 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:

I'll add to my post. Not only will 4 fill first, it will be the only one to fill and overflow.

Kevin


Once full, both three and four will overflow. One and two will never fill, this assumes the flow rate through the escape spouts is low enough to not overcome their capability to dispense the liquid.

------------------
Ron

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?

Definition of a home owner, "see the door threshold, without my permission, there and no futher.......

If, you wish to piss off a Conservative, lie to him.
If, you wish to piss off a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, tell them the truth.

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Report this Post10-27-2016 08:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out how come my glass won't stay full.

[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 10-27-2016).]

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Report this Post10-27-2016 09:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Once full, both three and four will overflow. One and two will never fill, this assumes the flow rate through the escape spouts is low enough to not overcome their capability to dispense the liquid.




No, and yes.

First part would be yes if the connecting tube went straight across. That tube is the part throwing everyone.

[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 10-27-2016).]

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Report this Post10-27-2016 09:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out how come my glass won't stay full.





Willie,
There's a hole in the top of it!!!

------------------
Ron

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?

Definition of a home owner, "see the door threshold, without my permission, there and no futher.......

If, you wish to piss off a Conservative, lie to him.
If, you wish to piss off a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, tell them the truth.

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Report this Post10-28-2016 12:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:


No, and yes.

First part would be yes if the connecting tube went straight across. That tube is the part throwing everyone.



No, that makes no difference.
Flow rate is the key to the answer.
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Report this Post10-28-2016 01:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

olejoedad

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Dbl Pst

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 10-28-2016).]

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Report this Post10-28-2016 01:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for viperineSend a Private Message to viperineEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
None will ever be full. Chalk doesn't hold any liquid.
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Report this Post10-28-2016 01:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KhwSend a Private Message to KhwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis:

As drawn, in the static case (i.e. assuming fluid flow rates low enough to maintain equilibrium conditions): 3 & 4 will be full (first) at exactly the same time. If fluid viscosity is significant, all bets are off but conditions would tend to favor #3. If fluid viscosity is very high, it will overflow beaker #1 first.

(And yes, the airplane will fly.)



Same thoughts I had looking at it except I also thought if fluid supply rate is higher than the out port can flow, 1 will fill first and eventually overflow.
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Report this Post10-28-2016 09:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:


No, that makes no difference.


It makes all the difference.

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Report this Post10-28-2016 09:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

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I see the picture as Formula does. Will add that the flow rate is given as a drip or trickle, not a flowing spigot.
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Report this Post10-28-2016 09:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I still say 3..
but they left out information that I am basing my answer off of..
the left off measurement graduations and where they stop at the top end of the beaker.. but if you go by where the last measurement graduation is on most, #3 fills first..
if you look at as the beaker almost overflowing, that is overfilled..
but they left that measurement graduation out of the formula and photo/chalkboard question
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Report this Post10-28-2016 09:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Stubby79Send a Private Message to Stubby79Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Whichever one I whizz in.
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