LitebulbwithaFiero, it does sound as if he had a good home life with good nurturing parenting for at least the last 3 months. Before that, we don't know much.
It's my understanding, that he will plead guilty in exchange for the death penalty being "off the table". The State of Florida has not made any statement agreeing to that.
And, the 'he fell thru the cracks' thing has begun. Finkelstein said there are several aspects of Cruz’s life that could be raised to persuade a jury to spare his life, including an autism diagnosis that has been reported by people close to the shooter but not officially confirmed.
“This kid didn’t have to fall through the cracks. He screamed for help, and we failed him,” Finkelstein said . “He should never go free. Let him plead guilty and send him to prison for life.”
Someday maybe, we will accept that some people are just predisposed to taking life, have no qualms about it and act on mankind's centuries' old instinctive violent history.
This, is from an old fictitious TV show, but it's pretty accurate imo. Many here will recognize the words of Capt James T Kirk. Those who believe otherwise are simply deluding themselves:
(from another species appearing to be quite similar to a human) We're a killer species. It's instinctive. It's the same with you..... (Reply by the human): All right. It's instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we won't kill (pause) ..... today.
We don't 'become' killers, we ARE killers, naturally. Most repress the instinct when it comes to our own kind, but all are certainly capable of killing one another, and again, those that say otherwise are very much in denial simply to make themselves feel good about themselves, and it makes no difference whether it is up close and personal or at distance, whether directed to or done by one's own accord.
We have laws against it of course, man made and otherwise and I fully support them ,but laws and instinct very often collide in opposition.
LitebulbwithaFiero, it does sound as if he had a good home life with good nurturing parenting for at least the last 3 months. Before that, we don't know much.
It's my understanding, that he will plead guilty in exchange for the death penalty being "off the table". The State of Florida has not made any statement agreeing to that.
And, the 'he fell thru the cracks' thing has begun. Finkelstein said there are several aspects of Cruz’s life that could be raised to persuade a jury to spare his life, including an autism diagnosis that has been reported by people close to the shooter but not officially confirmed.
“This kid didn’t have to fall through the cracks. He screamed for help, and we failed him,” Finkelstein said . “He should never go free. Let him plead guilty and send him to prison for life.”
Someday maybe, we will accept that some people are just predisposed to taking life, have no qualms about it and act on mankind's centuries' old instinctive violent history.
This, is from an old fictitious TV show, but it's pretty accurate imo. Many here will recognize the words of Capt James T Kirk. Those who believe otherwise are simply deluding themselves:
(from another species appearing to be quite similar to a human) We're a killer species. It's instinctive. It's the same with you..... (Reply by the human): All right. It's instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we won't kill (pause) ..... today.
We don't 'become' killers, we ARE killers, naturally. Most repress the instinct when it comes to our own kind, but all are certainly capable of killing one another, and again, those that say otherwise are very much in denial simply to make themselves feel good about themselves, and it makes no difference whether it is up close and personal or at distance, whether directed to or done by one's own accord.
We have laws against it of course, man made and otherwise and I fully support them ,but laws and instinct very often collide in opposition.
I hate the whole concept of life in prison. A waste of so much and I don't just mean the tax payer burden. I wonder how many countless lives are taken by people spending life in prison of those who would see the light of day eventually.
Originally posted by ls3mach: I hate the whole concept of life in prison. A waste of so much and I don't just mean the tax payer burden. I wonder how many countless lives are taken by people spending life in prison of those who would see the light of day eventually.
Life sentences are the result of weakness from those who lack the courage to sqeeze the trigger, flip the switch or pull the lever. They depend on "society" to protect them and theirs from the evil in the world. They expect "society" to pay for their protection. While there may be a place for some who are intellectually incapable of knowing the difference from right and wrong, those are far fewer than those who simply don't give a damn and would take lives for their own gain, notoriety or other unfathomable reasons. There are valid reasons to kill but, those are also defined by our laws.
This scumbag deserves to die a slow and painful death. I doubt he'll get it but hopefully he'll end up in his own hell.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-18-2018).]
It's my understanding that life in prison is three times cheaper than a death sentence due to the appeals process. For that reason alone I'm opposed to the death sentence. Vengeance isn't worth the price. Plus once the death penalty is applied there is no further recourse even if innocence is belatedly proven.
It's my understanding that life in prison is three times cheaper than a death sentence due to the appeals process. For that reason alone I'm opposed to the death sentence. Vengeance isn't worth the price. Plus once the death penalty is applied there is no further recourse even if innocence is belatedly proven.
Then sir. YOU are part of the problem............ You're not alone though.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-18-2018).]
I would have no problem pulling the trigger on someone who shoots kids. Crazy or not. Need not be costly either, he admitted his guilt, it's time for him and those like him to leave the island.
It would be interesting to know how many of those convicted of "life with no chance of parole" would opt for death, and if the system could be allowed to fulfill the request.
Ive always said a death sentence should be carried out quickly, like within 3 months of sentencing. Hanging, shooting or frying a convict is a lot cheaper than housing and feeding them for 40 years. If they want to use drugs, police confiscate tons a year so they should also be free. If they need a volunteer for an execution, Id love to submit my name and phone number.
I also see on the news school students are wanting to stage a walkout protest to Trump...because of school shootings. Well first off, its their fellow students doing the shootings in most cases...protest them. Second, I think having a 'walkout' is just a free way to get out of school a day or two for them. Its just like loving snow days. Those attending school would like to see a get out of school day at least once a week for whatever reason.
Originally posted by FrugalFiero: It would be interesting to know how many of those convicted of "life with no chance of parole" would opt for death, and if the system could be allowed to fulfill the request.
Good point. Yet many plead guilty to avoid the death penalty.
quote
Originally posted by dratts: Vengeance isn't worth the price.
If I wanted vengeance I would outlaw the death penalty. Monkeyman and Rickaddy are prison guards. I also know some prison guards personally, and a Bexar County (Texas) County jail guard.
Prisoners are herded around like cattle, told when to wake up (very early if they want breakfast slop), all wear the same designer prison garb, can not choose where they are locked up (and get the room mate, whomever, they are told to), have no control of the TV, no choice of their community noise. They get shook down, stripped searched on demand, they have no rights !
I would opt for a death sentence over life behind bars in a cage. If I got a life sentence, I would opt for suicide by guards by trying to escape.
If I wanted vengeance I would outlaw the death penalty. Monkeyman and Rickaddy are prison guards. I also know some prison guards personally, and a Bexar County (Texas) County jail guard.
Prisoners are herded around like cattle, told when to wake up (very early if they want breakfast slop), all wear the same designer prison garb, can not choose where they are locked up (and get the room mate, whomever, they are told to), have no control of the TV, no choice of their community noise. They get shook down, stripped searched on demand, they have no rights !
I would opt for a death sentence over life behind bars in a cage. If I got a life sentence, I would opt for suicide by guards by trying to escape.
They get TV, and control of it. that I know. My FIL had his own when he was in, just got out this year.
It would be interesting to know how many of those convicted of "life with no chance of parole" would opt for death, and if the system could be allowed to fulfill the request.
I suspect that the number choosing death would be much lower than some people might guess.
1. The human instinct for survival is extremely strong. People have held on to hope for survival even in the most extreme odds against them. It's a very primal instinct.
2. Criminals in general don't have the same sense that honest citizens do about rules and the finality of judgments. "Life without chance of parole" isn't taken at face value or even seriously. I'm certain that every one of those so convicted still believe that they will be the one that beats the odds, the same as every innocent person that buys a lottery ticket believes that he will be the one to defy basic math and beat the odds against him winning.
That sense of somehow "beating the odds" might not be so misplaced though. There was a time in this country when execution was considered in every state NOT to be "cruel and unusual punishment".
I don't know. I am not doubting you. I was told most are in dormitory type housing. 40 people each with a TV would be interesting.
Allowing prisoners to watch television and have a TV in their cells is a privilege available in some prisons. There are usually two or more TV sets in a common living space. It helps them with boredom and stress as well as calming some who are restless. (Sic)
I suspect that the number choosing death would be much lower than some people might guess.
1. The human instinct for survival is extremely strong. People have held on to hope for survival even in the most extreme odds against them. It's a very primal instinct
I fully agree with this, and of prisoners already incarcerated, I think the # choosing death over serving their life sentence would be very small indeed. Life, regardless of "quality of life" is still life.
They get shook down, stripped searched on demand, they have no rights !
Every State is a little different, but as far as California goes, inmates have lost very few rights by being locked up. For example, a "free person" can be searched just like an inmate, given probable cause. People would be amazed at the jaw dropping freedoms, privileges and rights that inmates AND parolies have (in California). BUT you have to consider the levels of custody, in California we have 5. They consist of levels 1- 4 and the 5th is death row, the higher the level, the more restricted the freedom and privileges, (note, they loose no rights). And then there are subgroups within those. Freedom of movement and privileges can be gained or lost for behavior. Prison is a VERY broad term. For example, in contrast to death row, level 1 is so lax that they don't even call an escape an "escape" they call it a "walk away".
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 02-19-2018).]
There is a big push here to all but ban the use of the word 'prison'. DoCJ Facility or Correctional Institution are the new PC words being used. "Prison" is too stigmatizing..........
I don't know. I am not doubting you. I was told most are in dormitory type housing. 40 people each with a TV would be interesting.
Where he was (Kansas) it was two per cell.
Bonus fact. We just got back from a Parole hearing of someone else in Missouri, and we learned that the prisoners are getting tablets to help them with education.
I'm not against it, I thought it was interesting.
I was told that they would be very basic, locked down tablets.
Bonus fact. We just got back from a Parole hearing of someone else in Missouri, and we learned that the prisoners are getting tablets to help them with education.
I'm not against it, I thought it was interesting.
I was told that they would be very basic, locked down tablets.
Brad
We have those tablets too, the inmates already convert them to work like a lap top. People do not realize that inmates and inmate friends and family have forums and groups that share technology specifically related to prison life.
Bonus fact. We just got back from a Parole hearing of someone else in Missouri, and we learned that the prisoners are getting tablets to help them with education.
I'm not against it, I thought it was interesting.
I was told that they would be very basic, locked down tablets.
Brad
Who is buying these tablets?
The reason I ask is that 2 of my 6 Grandchildren are in gifted programs in school and they have never been offered free tablets, laptops or any other device.
I bought both of them laptops.
When I was in high school and college there were no such things as personal tablets and laptops. We took notes with PENCIL AND PAPER and we typed on typewriters.
That is the "help" we got with our education, and we weren't convicted criminals serving time in prison.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 02-19-2018).]
The reason I ask is that 2 of my 6 Grandchildren are in gifted programs in school and they have never been offered free tablets, laptops or any other device.
I bought both of them laptops.
When I was in high school and college there were no such things as personal tablets and laptops. We took notes with PENCIL AND PAPER and we typed on typewriters.
That is the "help" we got with our education, and we weren't convicted criminals serving time in prison.
From what I've seen they rent them. I've heard $50 a month and $200 if damaged.
From what I've seen they rent them. I've heard $50 a month and $200 if damaged.
I believe I just saw an article where in New York State the prisoners are going to be all given tablets. Yep, found it by Googling it. And other states popped up when I googled it.
In most Ohio prisons, not jails...prisoners can earn priviledges like their own tv, radio, library to get reading material. They or their family have to buy them. I think theyre restricted to computer and phone access though. They have 2-4 inmates to a cell, and they have a lights out time everything has to be turned off. So a death row prisoner can watch tv, go to a gym, read or write most of the time except for those that have duties like working in the prison laundry or making license plates. Theyre more like rehab homes for drug users than a penalty. Ive always believed in a 3 strike felonies...your executed period. To the liberals or those who think rehab for habitual felons works...it might, at 1 out of a thousand. So the odds are 999 out of the thousand will repeat crimes or try another one...usually within a year or two. One local one was convicted of rape and murder twice, served time, and got out. He wasnt out a month or so before he committed 4 more rapes/robberies and a murder of his last victim. He was caught on those because he was still wearing his required ankle GPS for probation. Didnt take long for police to find out the crimes put him at those locations every time. Hes awaiting trial, which his lawyer is fighting claiming the GPS data violated his right to privacy.
The reason I ask is that 2 of my 6 Grandchildren are in gifted programs in school and they have never been offered free tablets, laptops or any other device.
I bought both of them laptops.
When I was in high school and college there were no such things as personal tablets and laptops. We took notes with PENCIL AND PAPER and we typed on typewriters.
That is the "help" we got with our education, and we weren't convicted criminals serving time in prison.
California provides them to inmates free of charge. At the expense of tax payers so inmates can complete college classes, free of charge, at the expense of tax payers. BTW, regular software updates are also free of charge.
I hate the whole concept of life in prison. A waste of so much and I don't just mean the tax payer burden. I wonder how many countless lives are taken by people spending life in prison of those who would see the light of day eventually.
Inmates on death row should be bar coded and inventoried. If there is a need for a heart, kidney, lung, etc.... transplant, it's readily available. If the need comes before their 1st, 2nd, 3rd.......15th appeal. So be it.
Inmates on death row should be bar coded and inventoried. If there is a need for a heart, kidney, lung, etc.... transplant, it's readily available. If the need comes before their 1st, 2nd, 3rd.......15th appeal. So be it.
I used this argument 30 years ago in a persuasive speech class in college.
[This message has been edited by bonaduce (edited 02-21-2018).]
I used this argument 30 years ago in a persuasive speech class in college.
quote
Originally posted by FieroTony:
Inmates on death row should be bar coded and inventoried. If there is a need for a heart, kidney, lung, etc.... transplant, it's readily available. If the need comes before their 1st, 2nd, 3rd.......15th appeal. So be it.
8th amendment? Not that I'm opposed to it. My thesis title was "Kill them before they kill us all". This was in regards to inmates.
Inmates on death row should be bar coded and inventoried. If there is a need for a heart, kidney, lung, etc.... transplant, it's readily available. If the need comes before their 1st, 2nd, 3rd.......15th appeal. So be it.
Believe me, you don't want those. VERY MUCH diseased they are.
A conversation with a friend of a different political persuasion than me. He lived in Sandy Hook, and knew the shooters mother.....
I agree there needs to be conversation to solve the problem of violence in our society. I don't take stock in blaming a tool. 'It's a poor Craftsman that blames his tools' is an adage that comes to mind. I ponder what has happened to our society since we were kids. We had a parking lot at our school with pickup trucks with gun racks with guns in them, but no shootings. We had a much more respectable society then, or maybe a lot more of us had a higher regard for human life. Today's world is much different. I don't remember movies with over the top violence, we didn't have video games that took all of our time that also displayed such wanton disregard for life. We played cowboys and Indians, cops and robbers, yeah, but didn't spend hours upon end doing it. I don't remember the touting of an abortion to escape personal responsibility. I don't remember glorifying people that were the 'bad guys', or music that glorified debasing women or people who were different than we were. I don't remember kids being prescribed 'medication' to 'keep them in line'. There are a lot of things that have changed since we were children and young adults, sadly, many of these changes come as a detriment to a polite society. I don't know the answer to the problem, but I do know that people need to converse as adults, and with respect, to find a common ground. I know that the government cannot legislate evil, or hatred, or mental issues out of our society. I would hope that most people understand that a law simply codifies acceptable behavior and establishes a punishment for behaving badly. Laws only help when impartially enforced, and with penalties to the offender that are serious enough to make someone think twice before crossing the line. It is my hope that America can find the spirit that we had, and our parents had, so many years ago.
Perhaps the Bibical story of the Tower of Babel has some relevance to today's 'connected' society....
I do have a few thoughts forward that I will share....
Personal responsibility. This should be held dear by the media in this world. If you say it, it should be verified. If you are a news organization, report the news, don't 'spin' it to influence public opinion. There is an opinion page for that, and most of the opinions should come from the readers of the news, not the purveyors of the 'news'. The media sells a lot of false information.
Be a parent. Not a friend.
If schools are a target (hopefully a temporary problem), the first thing that should be put in place is better security. If it's not an easy target, it's not as attractive.
Properly fund the background check system. The NRA pushed for background checks in the beginning, but Congress did not fund the system. The states failed to do their part in reporting to the NICS in part due to lack of funding by the Feds to the States. Unfunded mandates are seldom effective.
Quit blaming the weapon, blame the person. And please stop giving heinous killers any publicity. Mention it once, and go on. How many impressionable, and unstable people are motivated by the 'fame' provided by this type of coverage.
Just some thoughts and ideas. Perhaps we can converse after all.
On Jan. 19, 2000 my son was the intended victim of a gang that had brought a gun to their high school.
The gang thought that my son had told authorities about them selling the drug "Ecstasy" to students.
That same morning at 9:30AM my wife and I were at a scheduled meeting with our son and his guidance counselor when my son revealed his fear of the gang and that he had been told that "Teddy", (one of the gang) had brought a gun to shoot him. One my son's friends had heard about the plan and warned him.
The guidance counselor called the Sheriff's Deputy / School Resource Officer into the office with us and my son told him who had the gun and that it was in his car in the school parking lot.
My son came home with us immediately.
At 3:45PM that day we heard news that there had been a fatal shooting at the school.
"Teddy" had been shot and killed in his car with the gun he had brought to school. The other boy in his vehicle that shot him claimed it was "an accident".
I immediately went over to the school while investigators were still there and demanded to know why this had happened after they were told specifically of the danger almost 6 hours earlier.
It was later revealed that the Sheriff's Deputy / Resource Officer DID NOTHING.......Well that isn't precisely correct, the officer went directly to "Teddy" and simply asked him politely if he had a gun in his car on campus. When "Teddy" said "no", the matter was immediately dropped without investigation.
That evening the Superintendent of Schools was on television stating that the school and officers "HAD NO WARNING OF THIS TRAGEDY"
When my wife and I saw the news coming out of Broward County Florida and their Superintendent of Schools saying the very SAME words on TV, "We had NO Warning", we both said; "He's Lying"
Information has dribbled out slowly about how many times authorities, including the Parkland school, had been warned about this psychotic kid.
Now we learn that the school resource officer in this latest case also did nothing but wait outside while the gunman killed 17 people and wounded many others.
The solutions to school shootings are NOT to ban any guns.
1. FORCE parents to accept responsibility for their kids actions. Enforce rules like curfews with consequences. If parents cant or wont, law enforcement gets control of the kid. 2. Im not against no gun purchase until 21...when they are out of school. Colleges dont seem to have the same problem. You do know that a person will get a weapon of some kind legally or not. No one may have ANY gun access (legally) without adult supervision directly on hand for anyone under 21. Mandatory jail time for parent/guardian and violator. Australia banned all guns, including police, and saw a zero drop in crime. 3. Hand out CONSEQUENCES for bad behaviors. That includes some serious actions against bullying...like expulsion for a whole grading period per offense. 4. Along with safety and use classes for CCPs and purchase of guns, REQUIRE a medical mental evaluation signed off by a licensed doctor. You have to get a medical certificate to get a pilot license. 5. ALL law enforcement agencies MUST share all and any pertinent info on a purchase or CCP application. An actual physical face to face meeting with an accused on ANY kind of reported threat or behavior. 6. No student allowed to leave school premises until end of their school day. No early dismissal/cutting without an escort out of buildings. That would include NO access to vehicles belonging to students. If dismissed early, NO re admittance that day without an escort to their class from the door. 7. ALL school buildings will remain LOCKED from the inside for the duration of the day. They do still open from inside for like safety (fire, etc) 8. A TRAINED AND ARMED guard for each building that contains students. Possibly even has access to CCT of the entire building he is in. 9. A panic button in each room to activate a school wide intruder alarm. Anyone causing false alarm fully prosecuted and punished. 10. Allow teachers and staff to be armed inside the school.
They want a safe school, they must give up some rights. They are kids without full adult rights in the first place.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 02-23-2018).]
The news about the deputy sickens me, but I can't say I'm surprised. Everything about this school shooting has been one big charlie foxtrot from beginning to end. There are already folks (the usual suspects) coming to the officer's defense. " A pistol is no match for an assault rifle!" "He was waiting for backup" "He feared for his life and rightfully so!"
Sad that teachers and school employees gave their lives trying to protect students and this particular leo wouldn't/didn't even try. I'll just leave this link right here: http://www.breitbart.com/te...oon-contest-honored/
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-23-2018).]
