the ONLY hospitals that exist in poor areas are "Not for Profit"... One of the ways to get more grant money right now is by how many COVID-19 related cases you report. The more there are in a particular area, the Government deems it a "hot spot" and therefore they are more eligible for financial support from the Government.
So... are you then suggesting that the US is the only country in the world where this method of health care financing takes place, and therefore the only country in the world where COVID-19 related figures are being inflated?
I find that extremely difficult to believe... but if so, you've got to wonder why this flawed model of health/hospital care still exists in, and only in, the United States.
So... are you then suggesting that the US is the only country in the world where this method of health care financing takes place, and therefore the only country in the world where COVID-19 related figures are being inflated?
I find that extremely difficult to believe... but if so, you've got to wonder why this flawed model of health/hospital care still exists in, and only in, the United States.
Seems pretty simple. If you are doubting him, then you find other countries that have a multiplier for every hospitalization that is labeled as "Corona".
Seems pretty simple. If you are doubting him, then you find other countries that have a multiplier for every hospitalization that is labeled as "Corona".
Guys, don't feed the troll. He just wants to argue.
Funny how it's only "arguing" when one doesn't want to hear what the other is saying.
Although, the telling others not to listen is a nice little douchie touch! Like they can't think/decide for themselves without you? Do you think they're morons? (see how that works, bigshot?)
Maybe it just seems like arguing to you because there is no way you could know for sure the things you claim to "know" about this.
Or are you just stating some of the possibilities of what could be going on? Usually involving the Powerful secretly getting-over on the Weak? You know, them Conspiracy Theory's.
I have noticed you seem to have quite a few. All seemingly presented as if they were fact. Are they?
The truth is, you don't know anymore about what goes on behind closed doors than the rest of us. Guessing? Or are you just arguing, too?
I mean, what exactly are you doing? Looking to educate? Looking for support? Looking for debate?
Or is that something only other people here do?
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 06-27-2020).]
So... are you then suggesting that the US is the only country in the world where this method of health care financing takes place, and therefore the only country in the world where COVID-19 related figures are being inflated?
I find that extremely difficult to believe... but if so, you've got to wonder why this flawed model of health/hospital care still exists in, and only in, the United States.
There's good and bad. What I do know is that healthcare in America is better than anywhere else in the world. We provide more than 3/4ths of the medical research and funding. Most of the medical breakthroughs and technology comes from here as well. That kind of ability is only possible in a totally free market environment where limited regulation is allowed to exist. I don't want to get into the whole specifics unless you really really want to get into this discussion.
Never the less, in the US we have Medicare for the elderly (which can be supplemented by private insurance) and then we have Medicaid for poor people. Medicaid generally works well for the poor, but you have to actually be on welfare to get it. Poor people living on the street generally aren't on welfare because they often are not in the system. More often than not, people living on the street suffer from mental illness and / or chemical addictions, so... they don't have health care either because they simply aren't in the system. Then you have people that make too much to be eligible for healthcare, but they aren't getting it subsidized by their companies. The ACA had hoped to solve this problem, but it didn't... in some aspects, it made it worse. You also have illegals, and they aren't on anything because they can't legally get healthcare, Medicaid, or Medicare either. Finally, you have some people who can afford it, and then just don't WANT to pay for healthcare. I'm not making any aspersions as to whether any of this is wrong or right... that THAT is the reason why we have the law that says hospitals MUST stabilize and care for anyone who comes into a hospital, regardless of their ability to pay.
A single-payer system of health care WOULD fix this... but the negative of this is that in order to make the costs not go totally insane, you must have cost controls, and that's when you affect the 60% of Americans who currently have the best healthcare in the world essentially. Again, if you REALLY want me to get into this, I will. But yes... most countries have single-payer healthcare... whether it's good or not is irrelevant. But as it stands, there's no need to attempt to inflate numbers because it has no bearing on whether the hospital makes money or not.
That's not the whole story, but it's certainly part of it. There have been a large number of deaths that have been inappropriately linked to COVID-19. If you test positive for COVID-19, but died in a car accident, then they list you as a COVID death. Likewise, there is a huge push for testing... as I mentioned before... because that's a money-maker. Again, not making aspersions one way or another, but simply laying that out there as one of the reasons US numbers are so badly inflated.
We are clearing having an uptick right now though...
There have been a large number of deaths that have been inappropriately linked to COVID-19. If you test positive for COVID-19, but died in a car accident, then they list you as a COVID death.
Funny how it's only "arguing" when one doesn't want to hear what the other is saying.
Although, the telling others not to listen is a nice little douchie touch! Like they can't think/decide for themselves without you? Do you think they're morons? (see how that works, bigshot?)
Maybe it just seems like arguing to you because there is no way you could know for sure the things you claim to "know" about this.
Or are you just stating some of the possibilities of what could be going on? Usually involving the Powerful secretly getting-over on the Weak? You know, them Conspiracy Theory's.
I have noticed you seem to have quite a few. All seemingly presented as if they were fact. Are they?
The truth is, you don't know anymore about what goes on behind closed doors than the rest of us. Guessing? Or are you just arguing, too?
I mean, what exactly are you doing? Looking to educate? Looking for support? Looking for debate?
Or is that something only other people here do?
Dude get real. He keeps ignoring others and bringing crap just to stir the pot. Damn.
There is a YouTube video. So the answer is from the government.
Seriously dude... you're telling me the video that Todd posted is something authoritative, "from the government"?
The two of you are just kidding around, right?
A video filmed in a church of a private physician giving her take on COVID-19 figures is all you have?
I can almost make out the "Trump 2020" badge showing through her smock! lol
What a joke.
Hey, have you heard... Nazis landed on the moon! There's a video... from the government!
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:
If you really cared you can research it. The fact that you have never heard this tells me all I need to know.
You post questionable if not downright bogus claims, and then you expect me to try and find supporting evidence? Yeah, right... that about "tells me all I need to know" as well.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-29-2020).]
You post questionable if not downright bogus claims, and then you expect me to try and find supporting evidence? Yeah, right... that about "tells me all I need to know" as well.
Oh, I dunno... you're the one who spent all weekend trying to find that 47 second clip of shaky video. (She sure wanted to get away from that podium in a hurry.)
Okay, I get it. There are no deaths from COVID-19 in the state of Illinois. Party on, Chicago!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-29-2020).]
Oh, I dunno... you're the one who spent all weekend trying to find that 47 second clip of shaky video. (She sure wanted to get away from that podium in a hurry.)
Okay, I get it. There are no deaths from COVID-19 in the state of Illinois. Party on, Chicago!
When you're wrong, the response should be... "Ok, I understand now."
It shouldn't be... shut up bad man... blow me! == "Okay, I get it. There are no deaths from COVID-19."
COVID is bad, lots of people are dying from it... over 500k people across the entire world. I respect your politics, but the goal of the left (coming into an election year), is to make it seem like Trump is doing the worst possible job he can. When Obama was running for reelection, Republicans worked to try to make it seem like Obama was doing the worst job ever in history. I don't think there's some crazy conspiracy in counting deaths and COVID cases... it's just a clear indication (as you saw in the video), how deaths are being improperly associated to COVID. The explanation for this of course has to do with how funding (in the form of grants, etc.) is handled for not for profit hospitals. Because essentially every other country has single-payer, this isn't something that's being done elsewhere. The only other manipulation going on is in countries like China, Iran, etc... where it's obviously being done to protect the ruling party.
When you're wrong, the response should be... "Ok, I understand now."
It shouldn't be... shut up bad man... blow me! == "Okay, I get it. There are no deaths from COVID-19."
Todd, when you infer that you're quoting me, please don't cut me off in mid-sentence when it makes a big difference with my point!
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
Okay, I get it. There are no deaths from COVID-19 in the state of Illinois. Party on, Chicago!
You can't take information from ONE state and then try and covertly apply it to the entire country. That's being less than honest, if not downright deceptive.
You can't take information from ONE state and then try and covertly apply it to the entire country. That's being less than honest, if not downright deceptive.
Patrick, it's not just one state that's doing it. It's being done by all states, and all cities, particularly where there are not for profit hospitals (which primarily reside in heavily populated Democrat cities).
If you understand that the MSM is overwhelmingly left leaning and biased you should see what's happening here. If you don't see it then it's obvious where you stand. Notice I didn't say it's bad or good, only obvious. I'm not sure why some people think the bias is not visible.
Yes sir, I know what an N 45 rated mask is. A low level rated respirator. I know what a particulate mask is also. I know that all masks are not created equal.
How can you say home sewn cloth masks serve only to help keep droplets INSIDE. Mine has hepa filters. Using an air filter composed of a mat of dense fibers arranged in folds, designed according to federal standards to trap at least 99.97% of airborne particles measuring 0.3 microns in diameter. Do they only keep air born particles inside ?
How many microns is a Covid 19 contagion ? How heavy is it in relation to air particles ? From my mask wearin' days in the oil patch I know H2S gas sinks to ground level. Or lower if it can. H2S work required a self contained breathing apparatus mask. SCBA, not SCUBA, not underwater.
I don't know aboout N45 masks, but N-95 masks are the standard against which most comparisons are made. Less than 5% of virus particles penetrate an N-95 mask. https://smartairfilters.com...capture-coronavirus/ They capture most of anything above .3 microns. A single Covid 10 virus particle measures somewhere between 0.06 µm, and the largest are about 0.14 µm. 1 µm=1 micron. For comparison, the diameter of a human hair is about 75 µm (microns) and a single human red blood cell is about 5 microns diameter. So, a single whole Covid 19 virus particle averages 0.125 microns. Your HEPA filter mask (stops most particles larger than .03 microns but allows particles smaller than that to pass) will not filter out all covid19 virus particles. .006, .007, .008, .009, etc are way smaller than .03 microns. Cloth masks will not prevent sub-micron penetration either. https://www.materials-talks...oronavirus-covid-19/
But, covid 19 virus particles have no way to move on their own, (or do much of anything else all on their own except hijack cells) and you do not expel individual virus particles by themselves. They are not an air transmissible pathogen. They are expelled contained or attached to either droplets or aerosols. Normally, we cough out both but usually sneeze out aerosols.
Coughed droplets range from .5 to 12 µm.
Normal speaking also produces thousands of oral fluid droplets with a broad size distribution (from about 1 μm to 500 μm) . Doubled cloth masks will stop the majority of these.
Aerosols are much smaller than 'droplets'. An aerosol is defined as a solid or liquid particle suspended in a gas. In this case, the gas is air or carbon dioxide and the liquid is mucus. There are 1,000 nanometers in 1 micron. In other words, a nanometer is 1/1000th of a micron. A cloth mask will not prevent much penetration of an aeresol particle smaller than .1 micron if forcefully expelled but will prevent penetration of most larger droplets. A lot depends on how forcefully the aerosol ( and droplet) is expelled. ie, It's velocity.
quote
Conclusions In conclusion, we have measured the filtration efficiencies of various commonly available fabrics for use as cloth masks in filtering particles in the significant (for aerosol-based virus transmission) size range of ∼10 nm to ∼6 μm and have presented filtration efficiency data as a function of aerosol particle size. We find that cotton, natural silk, and chiffon can provide good protection, typically above 50% in the entire 10 nm to 6.0 μm range, provided they have a tight weave. Higher threads per inch cotton with tighter weaves resulted in better filtration efficiencies. For instance, a 600 TPI cotton sheet can provide average filtration efficiencies of 79 ± 23% (in the 10 nm to 300 nm range) and 98.4 ± 0.2% (in the 300 nm to 6 μm range). A cotton quilt with batting provides 96 ± 2% (10 nm to 300 nm) and 96.1 ± 0.3% (300 nm to 6 μm). Likely the highly tangled fibrous nature of the batting aids in the superior performance at small particle sizes. Materials such as silk and chiffon are particularly effective (considering their sheerness) at excluding particles in the nanoscale regime (<∼100 nm), likely due to electrostatic effects that result in charge transfer with nanoscale aerosol particles. A four-layer silk (used, for instance, as a scarf) was surprisingly effective with an average efficiency of >85% across the 10 nm −6 μm particle size range. As a result, we found that hybrid combinations of cloths such as high threads-per-inch cotton along with silk, chiffon, or flannel can provide broad filtration coverage across both the nanoscale (<300 nm) and micron scale (300 nm to 6 μm) range, likely due to the combined effects of electrostatic and physical filtering. Finally, it is important to note that openings and gaps (such as those between the mask edge and the facial contours) can degrade the performance. Our findings indicate that leakages around the mask area can degrade efficiencies by ∼50% or more, pointing out the importance of “fit”. Opportunities for future studies include cloth mask design for better “fit” and the role of factors such as humidity (arising from exhalation) and the role of repeated use and washing of cloth masks. In summary, we find that the use of cloth masks can potentially provide significant protection against the transmission of particles in the aerosol size range.
Originally posted by maryjane: I don't know about N45 masks, but N-95 masks are the standard against which most comparisons are made. Less than 5% of virus particles penetrate an N-95 mask.
I did mean N-95, thank you. I also thank you for giving me the information that you did. I like to think I am logical.
What is weird is the two stories that are being put out there. MJ you say that this one hospital is "close to running out of hospital beds". Yet hospitals were almost empty when we were to "flaten the curve". Suddenly we have full hospitals again? Which beds are full? ICU? Ventilators? Generic beds? Is anyone else having a hard time with this?
They are saying that ICU beds are running at "nearly capacity", which, as someone with common sense explained on the radio is how Hospitals designed them to run. He said that they are set up to run at a constant 70%, or they aren't earning a profit, which makes sense.
So the media is using that as "Nearly at capacity" for their headlines and ignoring that it's how they always are. Hospitals that are empty are closed Hospitals.
I'm not sure why some people think the bias is one way.
I'm sure if I searched, I'd find several posts you've made where you praised stuff Trump has done... Right?
Pick out a few here on the Right, I know several of us posted about things Obama did that we liked, there was a thread on it IRC.
And there are several of us that have posted about things Trump has done that we don't like.
We have a bias, we don't pretend we don't, and we try to be fair. Meanwhile, people on the far Left, like you, will go out of their way to NOT post anything positive.
I'm sure if I searched, I'd find several posts you've made where you praised stuff Trump has done... Right?
Wrong.
And if you searched, you wouldn't find any posts I've made where I've criticized "stuff" that Trump has done either.
quote
Originally posted by Fats:
We have a bias, we don't pretend we don't, and we try to be fair.
So, the Right has nominated you as their spokesperson? Desperate times call for desperate measures!
quote
Originally posted by Fats:
Meanwhile, people on the far Left, like you...
You don't know anything about me.
For any of you all caught up in this Right / Left bullshit, watch This video. It's all cued up for your viewing pleasure. Not safe for work. Very coarse language.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-01-2020).]
We know your opinions. We know you are Canadian. We know you live in BC (The number 1 spot for grow-ops in Canada).
My guess is you are a feisty old fart like many of us here. Sometimes you are agreeable. Sometimes you just want to sling mud. Who knows what motivates people these days.
We know you live in BC (The number 1 spot for grow-ops in Canada).
Huge amount of arable land, favorable climate, low population density, enormous market just across the border... so sure, pot is grown here. Lumping me in with drug cartels now? Another label?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-01-2020).]
That's quite a sweeping statement Todd, again with no collaborating evidence.
Let's just say for gits and shiggles that what you're stating is true... then it's one truly messed up heath "care" system you have down there.
You can say what you will about our healthcare system, but the United States performs more than 3/4ths of the total medical research and development in the world. The United States is such a leader in this area, that they account for more than the next top 5 combined in both funding, and technology advancement. Nearly every piece of medical technology is either developed, researched, or made first available in the United States. The "centers of excellence" being the absolute best in nearly every single medical category, exists in the United States. The top surgeons in every category, almost exclusively live in the United States. The United States has maintained 7-8 of the top medical universities in the world, year after year. The United States is so unbelievably far ahead of every other country in terms of advancement in medical research and technology, that this whole paragraph I just wrote is about as humble as you can possibly write it.
So, again... you can say what you will... but our system is the *reason* why this is the case.
I'm guessing you don't understand how this works, but you didn't say you wanted to get into it... so I'll explain briefly, and if you need more... I'll get into it. With a single-payer (socialized medicine), the Government pays for all healthcare costs. For it to be "fair" every technology is made available to every person. This is great on the surface, but the only way this is possible is if the Government sets "cost/pricing limits" on services and technology. A corporation is in the business to make money. R&D is extremely expensive, and it's not always successful. When you set price limits, a company is not able to recoup costs, and is not able to make enough profit to pay for additional or future training.
The United States also has the most millionaires and billionaires... and that doesn't go unnoticed. In the United States, only the wealthiest people are able to afford the newest technologies because they are not available to everyone. Insurance companies will not reimburse for very new technology, but wealthy can pay out of pocket. Right or wrong, or whatever the ethics are... the wealthy can pay for it... and that funds the R&D companies which allows future R&D.
So.... it is what it is. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion of what you think is right or wrong morally... but the system we have has enabled the United States to be a leader. I know that when we're talking health, it's totally different than saying... "Not everyone can afford to have a Ferrari." But everything in life is that way. We can't all get the best health care all the time. But the fact that a Ferrari exists at all is because of wealthy people. The fact that medical technology exists the way it does at all, is because of wealthy people.
You can ask... why can't they do these things in other countries? What's stopping them?
First and foremost, when someone believes that a company has a product that can save lives, they believe it's only fair that they share it with people who's lives need to be saved. Unfortunately, they can't afford it. In countries with single payer, they have rules / regulations that force companies to sell these products at reasonable rates (regardless of the company's ability to recoup costs or grow the business for the future). This happens also in the US, but no where near as harsh as it has happened in other countries. Two examples are... Congress passed laws for pharmaceuticals. There are two separate laws based on drugs and patents. For normal drugs... like, let's say Viagra or Propecia (I think that's for hair loss)... drugs like this, the company is ONLY allowed to have a patent for 10 years. After 10 years, the patent is released and other companies can make generics. They have a similar law for "life saving" drugs, but that number has been brought down to 5 years. A company who owns the rights to a drug that can save lives is allowed to hold onto the rights of that drug for 5 years and can charge essentially whatever they want. I know this may seem evil to you... but consider my comment above that "not everyone gets to have a Ferrari." After 5 years, the patent for the drug is released, and other companies can now sell the life-saving drug. In pretty much every other country that has a single-payer system, the Government would have immediately mandated the country release the drug, or produce it at a lower cost that's affordable to the government's healthcare system. As such... the company cannot make the profit it needs to ultimately be successful (and invest in future technologies). So... they've all come to the United States.
As an FYI... even European companies have moved their R&D into the United States exclusively to get away from the regulations that they're forced to abide by in their home country. The UK at one time used to be one of the most medically advanced countries in the world... and they started imposing such laws which had a direct effect on the companies (who then started to move to the US). As a result, the NHS in the UK (their Single-Payer system) had to try to counter this to keep the jobs in the UK and started funding research through grants. In the end, the Government ended up having to pay the bill anyway... but still lose businesses.
In the United States, the Federal Government still offers grants on R&D in the medical industry through the NIS, but that only accounts for about ~15% of the overall funding (depending on year). Unlike other countries in the world... 80-90% of R&D research comes from private equity.
A company who owns the rights to a drug that can save lives is allowed to hold onto the rights of that drug for 5 years and can charge essentially whatever they want. I know this may seem evil to you... but consider my comment above that "not everyone gets to have a Ferrari."
To anyone who requires medical treatment, a healthcare system is only as good as it's accessibility... be that in Canada, the States, or wherever.
Todd, I appreciate the post, but equating the inability to afford a lifesaving procedure/medication to that of owning an expensive plaything is ridiculous... and insulting to those who cannot afford treatment.
The medical establishment the world over is becoming more and more reliant upon the pharmaceutical industry. This is not in the best interests of the general population. These huge corporations are focused on our money, not our well-being.
To anyone who requires medical treatment, a healthcare system is only as good as it's accessibility... be that in Canada, the States, or wherever.
Todd, I appreciate the post, but equating the inability to afford a lifesaving procedure/medication to that of owning an expensive plaything is ridiculous... and insulting to those who cannot afford treatment.
The medical establishment the world over is becoming more and more reliant upon the pharmaceutical industry. This is not in the best interests of the general population. These huge corporations are focused on our money, not our well-being.
I understand, and I completely understand why you feel this way. What I want you to at least consider (even though this is a tangent now), is that even though the latest and greatest technology and innovation isn't available to everyone, the fact is this type of system *allows* for this technology to be developed in the first place. As a result, when the technology eventually is paid off, and the company has recouped their investment and made their profits, the technology then becomes affordable to everyone else. This is how nearly every modern piece of medical technology has come to be... both in the past from other countries when they shared a similar means of health system, to the United States today. If the United States employs a single-payer system, more than likely most of the medical advancement and research will move to China... quite frankly, a lot of it has... but the United States still maintains a substantial lead.
It's a mistake for any one country to have almost exclusive control over medical research and development, no matter which country it may be.
There's enough profit to be made by the medical industry without it being obscenely high.
At some point, maybe we need to start cheering for that asteroid to hit.
The United States does not have "exclusive control" over medical research. Researchers, medical professionals, medical professors, and medical companies chose to come to the United States as a result of the favorable conditions for research and development.
One aspect of the United States you should also consider is that it is the most charitable country in the world. The United States also provides more foreign medical aid than any other country in the world... more than the next three largest contributors combined. The United States also has the largest number of privately funded charitable organizations in the world which provide healthcare and resources globally, often receiving resources by the same companies in the United States that provide advanced technology. You've probably heard of organizations like World Vision, Red Cross, Partners in Health, Operation Smile, Mercy Ships... etc. That doesn't even scratch the surface.
I feel like your view of the United States is one of vast evil. While I'm not thrilled with the decisions of many of our presidents, we have directly contributed to much of what is good in this world.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 07-01-2020).]
There are some other Covid-related forum threads. I like this one because it seems to be getting a lot of "foot traffic" at this time.
"The 3 Weeks That Changed Everything"
quote
Imagine if the National Transportation Safety Board investigated America’s response to the coronavirus pandemic.
James Fallows for The Atlantic; June 29, 2020.
This is kind of a "read." If anyone were to undertake it, and read it from end to end, they would eventually encounter this, at the very end.
quote
Today, six months after the president was given his first warnings, more than 2.3 million Americans have been infected by the coronavirus. More than 120,000 have succumbed to the disease. New infections are being reported at the rate of thousands per day—as many now as at what some saw as the “peak” two months ago.
The language of an NTSB report is famously dry and clinical—just the facts. In the case of the pandemic, what it would note is the following: “There was a flight plan. There was accurate information about what lay ahead. The controllers were ready. The checklists were complete. The aircraft was sound. But the person at the controls was tweeting. Even if the person at the controls had been able to give effective orders, he had laid off people that would carry them out. This was a preventable catastrophe.”
MSNBC program anchor and uber liberal Chris Hayes was positively "lit" about this article as he conversed with its author, James Fallows.
That's why I'm offering it to the Pennock's forum at large.
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."
Patrick... I just noticed the two of us just got a "shadow" NEG... lol... not sure when that happened, but I just noticed it. Hahah...
I got a neg or so as well, I haven't touched the rating bar in a while on anyone. Most people I've left alone for years because I had them rated with my old user.
Where do you get your information from?
Yeah, right... that about "tells me all I need to know" as well.
