I feel like your view of the United States is one of vast evil. While I'm not thrilled with the decisions of many of our presidents, we have directly contributed to much of what is good in this world.
I already responded to this Here, but upon further reflection I wanted to add to it.
I've been told several times over the 21 years I've spent here that I "hate" (or words to that effect) the US. Every time it occurs it kind of puzzles me, as I don't "hate" the US, or its people.
I think what the problem is, is that at some level, Americans (speaking in general terms of ones who post here) wish other nationalities to act beholden to them... as if we owe them something. We're constantly being reminded (by Americans themselves) how much the US has done for the rest of the world. It's apparently not enough for us to show mutual respect, it's expected to be more. If this additional gratitude isn't forthcoming, then we must "hate" the US. Canadians (and probably Mexicans) bear the brunt of this attitude, simply due to our proximity.
It's not my nature to suck up to anyone, so I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be a cheerleader for the States, or the Brits, or any country other than my own. Everyone should be proud of where they're from, and I am.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-02-2020).]
I already responded to this Here, but upon further reflection I wanted to add to it.
I've been told several times over the 21 years I've spent here that I "hate" (or words to that effect) the US. Every time it occurs it kind of puzzles me, as I don't "hate" the US, or its people.
I think what the problem is, is that at some level, Americans (speaking in general terms of ones who post here) wish other nationalities to act beholden to them... as if we owe them something. We're constantly being reminded (by Americans themselves) how much the US has done for the rest of the world. It's apparently not enough for us to show mutual respect, it's expected to be more. If this additional gratitude isn't forthcoming, then we must "hate" the US. Canadians (and probably Mexicans) bear the brunt of this attitude, simply due to our proximity.
It's not my nature to suck up to anyone, so I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be a cheerleader for the States, or the Brits, or any country other than my own. Everyone should be proud of where they're from, and I am.
Perhaps you need some different wording. You read like someone that hates the US, and everyone in it... Everyone that isn't on the Left.
It could be a lot of jealousy causing it. We have done a lot for the rest of the world, and I could see where being in a Country that only exists because we're here to protect it would eat at a person.
I don't really care what you say, as you are just another foreigner with a screwed up country, wanting to tell us how we should be running ours.
I have a problem getting my point across most times. I'm just a poor uneducated Hillbilly, I do say things from time to time I shouldn't. But I do usually try to make amends if I think I was wrong. Perhaps that is some language barrier I'm missing where you are just being a rude Canuk and were never taught any manners growing up?
I'm not going to be a cheerleader for the States, or the Brits, or any country other than my own. Everyone should be proud of where they're from, and I am.
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:
Even if you are from south of the Mason-Dixon line? You know, Dixie?
I think it was plenty obvious I was referring to country of origin... but sure, most locales no doubt have something or someone of redeeming value to be proud of... whether that be in Dixie, Florida, Vancouver BC, Glendale AZ, or even Wheaton Mo.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-02-2020).]
Ya know Brad, 'we' (speaking in general terms) often come off in text and even in the spoken word, as if 'we' (Americans) look down on the rest of the world too. Done it more than a few times myself, regarding the snail sucking, NATO shunning, EU forming, white flag raising surrender monkeys over in Frawnce. Of course, I don't really hate them. They just make it so easy to poke fun at.. They're really a great bunch of folks, that just happen to like to eat slimy gastropods and and truly think Joan of Arc is the only thing the Brits ever cooked properly and even then, they over cooked her, (I personally believe the French should be appreciative of the fact that the Brits went way out of their way to provide Louis Maillard with the basis for his Maillard Effect 500 years later.
It's more than a bit ironic I think, that the French seem to prefer the Germans over the English even tho the Germans invaded them 3 times in the last couple of centuries...and succeeded each time.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-02-2020).]
Ya know Brad, 'we' (speaking in general terms) often come off in text and even in the spoken word, as if 'we' (Americans) look down on the rest of the world too. Done more than a few times myself, regarding the snail sucking, NATO shunning, EU forming, white flag raising surrender monkeys over in Frawnce. Of course, I don't really hate them. They just make it so easy to poke fun at.. They're really a great bunch of folks, that just happen to like to eat slimy gastropods and and truly think Joan of Arc is the only thing the Brits ever cooked properly and even then, they over cooked her, (I personally believe the French should be appreciative of the fact that the Brits went way out of their way to provide Louis Maillard with the basis for his Maillard Effect 500 years later
Been to France several times. Most Europeans are very nice... at least those are my experiences through much of Western Europe. In the 1980s it was a bit different though... there was heavy Russian propaganda in Europe at the time, and most of my cousins over there would tell me that Russia was eventually going to take us over... and I'd have full-grown adults asking me (anywhere from 8 to 12) if the USA was dirty and they'd try to get me to say bad things about the United States. I was with my cousins and uncles, etc... otherwise my Dad would have shown them otherwise.
But France has always been very interesting to me. I have two relatives that live there... one of them in some huge palatial chateau in the country with a wine cellar, separate from their basement, that's about the size of one floor of my home. My aunt is very nice of course (originally from the Netherlands), and most of the people out in the country there are very nice... or perhaps it's because they know my aunt. But in Paris... people are pretty much assholes.
There are some Americans which come to various destinations and expecting to be treated like royalty... and in some places they are... like Thailand, and Vietnam even. But in Paris... there's a total disgust for Americans. Most of it has to do with the fact that the French don't realize fully that the renaissance period has long-since passed. But don't even try to speak French over there. Even the French Canadians are looked upon as such total trash and garbage because they have a "failed backwoods" version of French that they speak.
France, definitely not a good example to chastise the US about.
"The coronavirus may have mutated to become more infectious"
The coronavirus has mutated in a way that might help the pathogen spread more easily, White House health advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said Thursday.
Research is underway to confirm the possible mutation and its implications, Fauci said, adding that “there’s a little dispute about it.”
Is that "a little dispute" or just "little dispute." Big difference. I think it's as reported, "a little dispute."
I think about this in connection with the contrasts that are being drawn between the current infection rates here in the U.S., vs the European Union and other highly developed nations.
"The coronavirus may have mutated to become more infectious"
The coronavirus has mutated in a way that might help the pathogen spread more easily, White House health advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said Thursday.
Research is underway to confirm the possible mutation and its implications, Fauci said, adding that “there’s a little dispute about it.”
Is that "a little dispute" or just "little dispute." Big difference. I think it's as reported, "a little dispute."
I think about this in connection with the contrasts that are being drawn between the current infection rates here in the U.S., vs the European Union and other highly developed nations.
More infectious doesn't bother me a bit. Viruses do what they do very well. What I care about is if it makes you more sick or kills more people. Right now the vast majority of people are asymptomatic and the death rate is quite low. We might reach herd immunity before any vaccine is produced.
“Our analyses suggest that the official tally of deaths due to Covid-19 represent a substantial undercount of the true burden,” Dan Weinberger, an epidemiologist at Yale School of Public Health and a lead author of the study, told CNBC. Weinberger said other factors could contribute to the increase in deaths, such as people avoiding emergency treatment for things like heart attacks. However, he doesn’t think that is the main driver.
The study was supported by the National Institute of Health.
The 781,000 total deaths in the United States in the three months through May 30 were about 122,300, or nearly 19% higher, than what would normally be expected, according to the researchers. Of the 122,300 excess deaths, 95,235 were attributed to Covid-19, they said. Most of the rest of the excess deaths, researchers said, were likely related to or directly caused by the coronavirus.
In spite of the rhetoric to the contrary by a few conspiracy theorists, the likelihood of over counting or deaths from other causes erroneously being attributed to Covid, the proof of any of that in more than just a very few cases is all but non-existent.
The death rate in the US from Covid19 HAS indeed dropped in the last 30 days, but from May 31 thru yesterday (July 1) , 22,665 people have died from it in the US alone. Avg=755 every day, spread out most recently over about 17 states. Lots better than the 1500 deaths per day average during most of may. Part of that decrease , is masks, shutdowns, we are getting better at treating it, better at finding it early, and the fact that more and more of the younger demographic are getting it instead of so many of the elderly. I suspect it has already killed about as many of the latter as it can right now.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-02-2020).]
I already responded to this Here, but upon further reflection I wanted to add to it.
I've been told several times over the 21 years I've spent here that I "hate" (or words to that effect) the US. Every time it occurs it kind of puzzles me, as I don't "hate" the US, or its people.
I think what the problem is, is that at some level, Americans (speaking in general terms of ones who post here) wish other nationalities to act beholden to them... as if we owe them something. We're constantly being reminded (by Americans themselves) how much the US has done for the rest of the world. It's apparently not enough for us to show mutual respect, it's expected to be more. If this additional gratitude isn't forthcoming, then we must "hate" the US. Canadians (and probably Mexicans) bear the brunt of this attitude, simply due to our proximity.
It's not my nature to suck up to anyone, so I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be a cheerleader for the States, or the Brits, or any country other than my own. Everyone should be proud of where they're from, and I am.
Wanted to respond to this... (missed it the first time).
There's perception on both sides, but what I will say is that the media here in the United States is very, quite frankly, anti-US. Furthermore, the news that we receive every single day is how horrible the United States is, and how every country is angry with us, and how every country hates us. In turn, those of us who pay for all of the charity, funding, and for families of those who have sacrificed (right or wrong) in defense of another nation... it starts to wear on us.
Likewise, media all over the world is ALSO anti-American, and it focuses almost entirely on how horrible the United States is, and how we're being mean and nasty everywhere.
So... what results is America hates itself and feels attacked, and everyone else quite frankly hates America because all they see is how horrible we supposedly are. Then, when we see our budget and see that entire economies exist almost exclusively because the United States exists... then yes... we feel there's some level of respect that's deserved and that we shouldn't be treated this way.
It's for this, and several other reasons why Trump was elected president.
There's so many examples I can point to. The Untied States almost entirely made up the defensive force for Europe for quite a number of years. We created NATO, and have augmented and built a force of 1.3 million soldiers with several new additions to NATO from Turkey, etc. But the US still has something like 300k soldiers in Germany alone, and nearly all the weapons defenses are there because of us, and paid for by us. Furthermore, our direct and positive effect on the local economies is enormous, yet the populations often treat us like garbage, usually because of what they see in the news... again, back to the media.
I don't like seeing massive fat white beached whale Canadian men with Speedos on Fort Lauderdale Beach, but I don't get upset because they bring tourist dollars and support our local businesses, so I don't mind... even when they come down and constantly make snide and bigoted comments, cut us off like they own the place, and refuse to tip waiters and waitresses.
EDIT: the poor attitudes seem to come mostly from the French Canadians from what I've seen... FYI.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 07-03-2020).]
I am not anti-mask, I wear mine without protest. I absolutely respect others and believe that the mask is more of a defense to protect others from me. But I do it mainly because I do not want to spread it to family or friends. I do not believe or accept the "data" because even after the Vid has been in the USA sense atleast November, we still do not know all that much more about it now than then. But the politics surrounding this thing is undeniable and made worse by an election cycle by a group of people hating on the President. This hate manifests in the form of blame, the worse this Vid looks, the worse the blame looks. I don't believe all of the hate hype blame. I respect others and care for my family so I protect myself with a mask barrier to protect them. I understand that it is a feeble attempt to stop a virus, BUT it is an attempt and that brings me a little piece of mind.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 07-03-2020).]
I don't like seeing massive fat white beached whale Canadian men with Speedos on Fort Lauderdale Beach, but I don't get upset because they bring tourist dollars and support our local businesses, so I don't mind... even when they come down and constantly make snide and bigoted comments, cut us off like they own the place, and refuse to tip waiters and waitresses.
HEY!!.....those are not speedos. They are official arctic-issue thongs.
I am not anti-mask, I wear mine without protest. I absolutely respect others and believe that the mask is more of a defense to protect others from me. But I do it mainly because I do not want to spread it to family or friends. I do not believe or accept the "data" because even after the Vid has been in the USA sense atleast November, we still do not know all that much more about it now than then. But the politics surrounding this thing is undeniable and made worse by an election cycle by a group of people hating on the President. This hate manifests in the form of blame, the worse this Vid looks, the worse the blame looks. I don't believe all of the hate hype blame. I respect others and care for my family so I protect myself with a mask barrier to protect them. I understand that it is a feeble attempt to stop a virus, BUT it is an attempt and that brings me a little piece of mind.
You have it 100% right and are doing the 'right thing', but you do know, that there is someone somewhere that is going to peg you as 'skeered' because you try to protect others.
Todd, the sooner as you get your head around the fact that US involvement in other countries' affairs has little to do with being altruistic, the sooner you'll understand why the rest of the world doesn't wish to kowtow to the mega-corporations in the US who are actually running the show. The red or blue puppets in government cede to their wishes. It's the same the world over (with their governments, and their taskmasters), so don't feel picked on. Money is power. The ultra-wealthy rule.
In the grand scheme of things, working class Americans are being taken advantage of in much the same manner as citizens of any other country. It's for this reason that I certainly don't feel any animosity towards the average American that I meet, either here or in "real" life. However, please don't ask me to grovel to the US government. Anything they act on is ultimately in the best interests of American big business.
Todd, the sooner as you get your head around the fact that US involvement in other countries' affairs has little to do with being altruistic, the sooner you'll understand why the rest of the world doesn't wish to kowtow to the mega-corporations in the US who are actually running the show. The red or blue puppets in government cede to their wishes. It's the same the world over (with their governments, and their taskmasters), so don't feel picked on. Money is power. The ultra-wealthy rule.
In the grand scheme of things, working class Americans are being taken advantage of in much the same manner as citizens of any other country. It's for this reason that I certainly don't feel any animosity towards the average American that I meet, either here or in "real" life. However, please don't ask me to grovel to the US government. Anything they act on is ultimately in the best interests of American big business.
Your statement is very blanket and definitive... the US involvement in much of the world is not as you say, but some of it is.
Like... for example. I don't know why the United States feels the need to protect middle-east oil interests. Why are we protecting Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Abu Dabi, etc... ? Why do we care? We can and do produce our own oil. And... when we do purchase from the middle East, who's kingdoms almost entirely funded their cities from oil revenue generated from the US, they raise the prices on us to hurt our own oil production.
So yes... no ****ing clue why we do that.
Iraq... horrible idea. I supported it years ago because it made sense to me at the time, and I was fooled into believing we needed to be in there. Yes, Saddam was a bad guy... but then we should take over North Korea too then (he's definitely worse).
There's a lot I don't agree with.
But your comments above are about as ridiculous as I think I've ever seen. You're committed to the belief that the United States is an evil empire. I don't ascribe to that, and I know, factually, that the existence of the United States has brought more people out of poverty in this world... through our free market idealism and capitalism, than any other concept. I say again, 70% of Canada's revenue comes from the United States... your cities exist the way they are today (size, population, and success) *because* of the United States.
You're committed to the belief that the United States is an evil empire.
You're committed to the belief of something I never stated.
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I know, factually, that the existence of the United States has brought more people out of poverty in this world... through our free market idealism and capitalism, than any other concept. I say again, 70% of Canada's revenue comes from the United States... your cities exist the way they are today (size, population, and success) *because* of the United States.
You still don't get it. Yes, there has been wealth created in places where American businesses have gone, but that's a residual effect. They're there (whether that be in Canada or elsewhere) to make huge corporate profits. That's how capitalism works. Stop being so blind to the fact that it's all about generating wealth for themselves, and not about being altruistic!
Canadian corporations (and British, and Chinese, etc) do the same thing in other countries, so it's not just an "American" thing. Accept the facts, and quit putting American big business on some sort of pedestal.
You still don't get it. Yes, there has been wealth created in places where American businesses have gone, but that's a residual effect. They're there (whether that be in Canada or elsewhere) to make huge corporate profits. That's how capitalism works. Stop being so blind to the fact that it's all about generating wealth for themselves, and not about being altruistic!
Canadian corporations (and British, and Chinese, etc) do the same thing in other countries, so it's not just an "American" thing. Accept the facts, and quit putting American big business on some sort of pedestal.
We're getting at the root of our differences.
"They're there (whether that be in Canada or elsewhere) to make huge corporate profits."
You word this as if this is a bad thing.
Some things to consider about these big businesses that make huge corporate profits:
1 - It brings 100,000s of jobs to countries that had previously been catastrophically poor. These countries previously in many cases had no GDP... when the United States brought manufacturing to them (as the first major country to considerably outsource manufacturing), we literally created economies. Sure, these people might be making peanuts compared to what we're making for comparable work, but they can now afford a home (rather than one made of stacked mud). They now have refridgerators, Toast-R-Ovens, and cars where at best they had bikes, or walked barefoot.
2 - The income generated by everyone employed at the corporation, both domestically and in foreign locations, is taxed locally (whether in-country, or in the country of location). These taxes then go to the government to fund public works projects and whatever that local government happens to be interested in.
3 - The huge profits that are retained from these corporations then get taxed as corporate taxes in the US, and are used to fund domestic and foreign programs... whether that's grants for health care, military, or foreign aide.
I truly believe our fundamental differences here are based on our differing concept of economics.
I suspect you believe that wealth is a zero-sum game... that for someone to make money, someone else has to lose it.
While that might be correct on a monetary-based transaction by transaction basis... it's not true for building "wealth." Wealth can and does grow. Unless you consider modern-living to be an American or Western ideology, then bringing a mud-hut living country out of poverty occurs directly because of Capitalism. Capitalism is by it's very nature altruistic. My guess is that you quite possibly couldn't disagree more with that last sentence.
What I will pose to you, and this is factually correct. Capitalism is responsible for bringing more people out of poverty than any other concept in world history since the beginning of time. Capitalism is the single greatest form of wealth redistribution, and Socialism is the worst... despite the fact that Socialism claims this as its goal.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 07-03-2020).]
You have it 100% right and are doing the 'right thing', but you do know, that there is someone somewhere that is going to peg you as 'skeered' because you try to protect others.
I totally understand both sides of the issue. When I do overtime at work I have to have the mask.on for 16 hours straight. I don't enjoy it, but I do it. I hear an amazing amount of anti-mask talk. It doesn't bother me, I just do what I do. I am not offended by people without a mask, and people who are offended by not having a mask, don't bother me either. Its It's about my family and friends and that tiny bit of piece of mind. The one and only that REALLY bothers me is State mandated laws or regulations. That just rubs me the wrong way.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 07-03-2020).]
I totally understand both sides of the issue. When I do overtime at work I have to have the mask.on for 16 hours straight. I don't enjoy it, but I do it. I hear an amazing amount of anti-mask talk. It doesn't bother me, I just do what I do. I am not offended by people without a mask, and people who are offended by not having a mask, don't bother me either. Its It's about my family and friends and that tiny bit of piece of mind. The one and only that REALLY bothers me is State mandated laws or regulations. That just rubs me the wrong way.
I wear the mask at work, and I wear it in stores. I 100% absolutely hate wearing the mask, and I will proudly complain about it, to which I've irked Mary Jane... and he's welcome to his opinions on it.
That said, we need to understand that the masks basically don't do squat, and we know it. It's UNDERSTOOD the mask is basically used to prevent you from infecting others, we understand that. The reason surgeons wear masks is to protect the patient being operated on. When WE wear masks outside of pandemic scares, it's to protect us from getting particulates into our lungs... e.g. in attics and in areas where there's a lot of dust.
The problem is, these masks are essentially bacteria factories. Because basically NO ONE washes their masks, and they continue to re-use "single use" masks, they are actually causing far more harm than good. This virus is not airborne, it is spread through contact and touch. In almost every case, this is as a result of people who are sick, spreading germs because they are touching their orafices and not washing their hands, then touching surfaces where it can remain for up to 14 days. Then... people who aren't sick touch these same surfaces, don't wash their hands, and then touch their holes... there-by infecting themselves.
There are people who cough and sneeze that have COVID, and the mask still allows for on average 30% of mucous spray to escape in even the best masks. That which doesn't escape is now trapped in a very humid "net" where it continues to grow and spread throughout the mask. As people adjust the mask, they are continuing to spread it on their fingers and then touch other surfaces.
The only way a mask serves literally any purpose at all, is if people wash them daily or throw out the disposable masks every day (which I do). None of that happens... absolutely none of that. So in effect, the people who have the stylish masks whether that says "Bernie is my lover" or "Trump 2020," they are literally doing more harm than good.
I only wear it because I'm being asked to.. the CDC's guidance has changed repeatedly and more aggressively as political pressure has been applied to it. There's a LOT of politics involved, and very little of this is actually science-based. San Antonio has issued two SMS alerts, both with wildly exagerative numbers by the liberal San Antonio mayor. This has a lot more to do about politics than it does anything else, and that's why I'm pissed, and that's why I think this is all bull **** .
What should have happened is:
1 - Old people and people with pre-existing conditions should have self-quarantined. 2 - We never should have shut down the economy, even though I've personally profited and benefited significantly from my trailing stop-loss trades and re-purchase at significantly lower prices. 3 - They never should have roomed sick patients in nursing homes in NY and other liberal cities, especially when the hospitals weren't even at 1/2 capacity... WTF?
Finally... the fact that no one says anything about the riots and protesting, but then says it's totally illegal for people to go to church and have a backyard BBQ for Forth of July.
So that's a big **** you to anyone and everyone who seems to have a problem with me hating a mask, and hating the hypocrisy and complete and total bull **** .
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I wear the mask at work, and I wear it in stores. I 100% absolutely hate wearing the mask, and I will proudly complain about it, to which I've irked Mary Jane... and he's welcome to his opinions on it.
That said, we need to understand that the masks basically don't do squat, and we know it. It's UNDERSTOOD the mask is basically used to prevent you from infecting others, we understand that. The reason surgeons wear masks is to protect the patient being operated on. When WE wear masks outside of pandemic scares, it's to protect us from getting particulates into our lungs... e.g. in attics and in areas where there's a lot of dust.
The problem is, these masks are essentially bacteria factories. Because basically NO ONE washes their masks, and they continue to re-use "single use" masks, they are actually causing far more harm than good. This virus is not airborne, it is spread through contact and touch. In almost every case, this is as a result of people who are sick, spreading germs because they are touching their orafices and not washing their hands, then touching surfaces where it can remain for up to 14 days. Then... people who aren't sick touch these same surfaces, don't wash their hands, and then touch their holes... there-by infecting themselves.
There are people who cough and sneeze that have COVID, and the mask still allows for on average 30% of mucous spray to escape in even the best masks. That which doesn't escape is now trapped in a very humid "net" where it continues to grow and spread throughout the mask. As people adjust the mask, they are continuing to spread it on their fingers and then touch other surfaces.
The only way a mask serves literally any purpose at all, is if people wash them daily or throw out the disposable masks every day (which I do). None of that happens... absolutely none of that. So in effect, the people who have the stylish masks whether that says "Bernie is my lover" or "Trump 2020," they are literally doing more harm than good.
I only wear it because I'm being asked to.. the CDC's guidance has changed repeatedly and more aggressively as political pressure has been applied to it. There's a LOT of politics involved, and very little of this is actually science-based. San Antonio has issued two SMS alerts, both with wildly exagerative numbers by the liberal San Antonio mayor. This has a lot more to do about politics than it does anything else, and that's why I'm pissed, and that's why I think this is all bull **** .
What should have happened is:
1 - Old people and people with pre-existing conditions should have self-quarantined. 2 - We never should have shut down the economy, even though I've personally profited and benefited significantly from my trailing stop-loss trades and re-purchase at significantly lower prices. 3 - They never should have roomed sick patients in nursing homes in NY and other liberal cities, especially when the hospitals weren't even at 1/2 capacity... WTF?
Finally... the fact that no one says anything about the riots and protesting, but then says it's totally illegal for people to go to church and have a backyard BBQ for Forth of July.
So that's a big **** you to anyone and everyone who seems to have a problem with me hating a mask, and hating the hypocrisy and complete and total bull **** .
Ok, like I said nothing you said bothers me and I think we have all heard it before. I am not going to argue any point you made. I will tho agree that masks need to be changed AND applied correctly. Without having it on correctly, it isn't on at all. I wash my masks, I have several of them and carry 2 in my lunch box at all time, one on me and an emergency backup in my uniform at work. I recommend washing the reusable mask and changing it out 2 or 3 times a day at work and the disposable ones must be trashed between 4-6 hours,..no longer than that. I also think that the political hypocrisy has been addressed as well. The one and only thing that I think you may not have addressed is the placebo affects of the masks. Just having that little extra mind calming sense of hope helps people. It may not have any affect on you, But it certainly does on other people. And I am ok with what ever anyone thinks about it, I see both sides and don't it any disagreements against anyone. This is a CRAZY time in history and will no doubt be a stand out point in history, 2020 is a dumpster fire so far.
Ok, like I said nothing you said bothers me and I think we have all heard it before. I am not going to argue any point you made. I will tho agree that masks need to be changed AND applied correctly. Without having it on correctly, it isn't on at all. I wash my masks, I have several of them and carry 2 in my lunch box at all time, one on me and an emergency backup in my uniform at work. I recommend washing the reusable mask and changing it out 2 or 3 times a day at work and the disposable ones must be trashed between 4-6 hours,..no longer than that. I also think that the political hypocrisy has been addressed as well. The one and only thing that I think you may not have addressed is the placebo affects of the masks. Just having that little extra mind calming sense of hope helps people. It may not have any affect on you, But it certainly does on other people. And I am ok with what ever anyone thinks about it, I see both sides and don't it any disagreements against anyone. This is a CRAZY time in history and will no doubt be a stand out point in history, 2020 is a dumpster fire so far.
To be clear, I wasn't yelling at you. I happened to have quoted you, but I was really just making a very large arrogant announcement in an aggressive manner to everyone who happened to read.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: To be clear, I wasn't yelling at you. I happened to have quoted you, but I was really just making a very large arrogant announcement in an aggressive manner to everyone who happened to read.
It's all good, I never took you as being confrontational. I am sorry if I came across that way, I was just responding to you in a general way.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I wear the mask at work, and I wear it in stores. I 100% absolutely hate wearing the mask, and I will proudly complain about it, to which I've irked Mary Jane... and he's welcome to his opinions on it.
That said, we need to understand that the masks basically don't do squat, and we know it. It's UNDERSTOOD the mask is basically used to prevent you from infecting others, we understand that. The reason surgeons wear masks is to protect the patient being operated on. When WE wear masks outside of pandemic scares, it's to protect us from getting particulates into our lungs... e.g. in attics and in areas where there's a lot of dust.
The problem is, these masks are essentially bacteria factories. Because basically NO ONE washes their masks, and they continue to re-use "single use" masks, they are actually causing far more harm than good. This virus is not airborne, it is spread through contact and touch. In almost every case, this is as a result of people who are sick, spreading germs because they are touching their orafices and not washing their hands, then touching surfaces where it can remain for up to 14 days. Then... people who aren't sick touch these same surfaces, don't wash their hands, and then touch their holes... there-by infecting themselves.
There are people who cough and sneeze that have COVID, and the mask still allows for on average 30% of mucous spray to escape in even the best masks. That which doesn't escape is now trapped in a very humid "net" where it continues to grow and spread throughout the mask. As people adjust the mask, they are continuing to spread it on their fingers and then touch other surfaces.
The only way a mask serves literally any purpose at all, is if people wash them daily or throw out the disposable masks every day (which I do). None of that happens... absolutely none of that. So in effect, the people who have the stylish masks whether that says "Bernie is my lover" or "Trump 2020," they are literally doing more harm than good.
I only wear it because I'm being asked to.. the CDC's guidance has changed repeatedly and more aggressively as political pressure has been applied to it. There's a LOT of politics involved, and very little of this is actually science-based. San Antonio has issued two SMS alerts, both with wildly exagerative numbers by the liberal San Antonio mayor. This has a lot more to do about politics than it does anything else, and that's why I'm pissed, and that's why I think this is all bull **** .
What should have happened is:
1 - Old people and people with pre-existing conditions should have self-quarantined. 2 - We never should have shut down the economy, even though I've personally profited and benefited significantly from my trailing stop-loss trades and re-purchase at significantly lower prices. 3 - They never should have roomed sick patients in nursing homes in NY and other liberal cities, especially when the hospitals weren't even at 1/2 capacity... WTF?
Finally... the fact that no one says anything about the riots and protesting, but then says it's totally illegal for people to go to church and have a backyard BBQ for Forth of July.
So that's a big **** you to anyone and everyone who seems to have a problem with me hating a mask, and hating the hypocrisy and complete and total bull **** .
So, much wrong with that. 1. It's not the elderly that are spreading it. It's the younger demographic. But yes, for THIER protection, most older people should practice distancing and quarantine if possible..stay home.
If 30% escapes, then 70% is prevented from doing so. I'll take that over 100% escaping every day of the week, and so will any epidemiologist or general practitioner.
Bacteria.. Another red herring...There is not a bacterial based pandemic in progress. "don't look here--look over there" We have very good antibiotics to treat bacterial infections...we do not have any well proven antivirals for Covid19 virus particles.
"The only way a mask serves literally any purpose at all, is if people wash them daily or throw out the disposable masks every day (which I do). None of that happens... absolutely none of that." And yet you say you do exactly that, and Rick confirms he does, as do I and everyone I know.
"People who are wearing 'stylish' masks are doing more harm than good"
Science says otherwise. But you already knew that.
This one, I really like.
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3 - They never should have roomed sick patients in nursing homes in NY and other liberal cities, especially when the hospitals weren't even at 1/2 capacity
So, it would have been ok if they did so in a conservative city? (there are numerous instances where covid19 broke out in conservative base ares and the patients were kept in-facility for the most part) (you just did what you accused others of doing...you politicized the issue.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-04-2020).]
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: ... we need to understand that the masks basically don't do squat, and we know it. It's UNDERSTOOD the mask is basically used to prevent you from infecting others, we understand that. The reason surgeons wear masks is to protect the patient being operated on.
Not quite true. As I said in this thread ...
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Originally posted by cliffw: I was in the hospital, ICU, with respiratory concerns. It turned out to be a severe case of pneumonia but out an abundance of caution, they assumed it COULD be tuberculosis. I was treated wearing no mask. If a mask does not protect them, why were they wearing one ?
I also said, in this thread ...
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Originally posted by cliffw: From caution that I had tuberculosis, the medical staff and my visitors wore masks (not I) while I was in an isolation negative pressure room. When I went in public space I had to wear a mask, not others.
Masks do have some effect on protecting the user and the wearer.
I saw a graphic on the effectiveness of mask wearing (I can't find it). No masks, worse. Healthy person wearing, better. Infected/sneezing wearing, even better. Both/all wearing, best.
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Originally posted by maryjane: N-95 masks are the standard against which most comparisons are made. Less than 5% of virus particlespenetratean N-95 mask. They capture most of anything above .3 microns. A single Covid 10 virus particle measures somewhere between 0.06 µm, and the largest are about 0.14 µm. 1 µm=1 micron.
Meaning the vaunted N95 can not stop corona virus.
What is missing from all the infections / hospitalizations statistics is a mask data question. "Were you / are you a mask user ?" I bet it is a minuscule amount of infections for religious mask wearers.
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Originally posted by maryjane: ... covid 19 virus particles have no way to move on their own, (or do much of anything else all on their own except hijack cells) and you do not expel individual virus particles by themselves. They are not an air transmissible pathogen. They are expelled contained or attached to either droplets or aerosols. Normally, we cough out both but usually sneeze out aerosols.
A lot depends on how forcefully the aerosol ( and droplet) is expelled. ie, It's velocity.
I saw an illustration which showed an infection "cloud" float up and over shelving to the next store isle. Also missing data is how much those buggers weigh. Heavier than air ?
Also, since they penetrate more close to the cough/sneeze, after they fight through air particles they would have slowed down. Making it less penetrable or even non-penetrable thus protecting a wearer.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: There are people who cough and sneeze that have COVID, and the mask still allows for on average 30% of mucous spray to escape in even the best masks.
I don't know where you get that data. I would study it.
So, it would have been ok if they did so in a conservative city? (there are numerous instances where covid19 broke out in conservative base ares and the patients were kept in-facility for the most part) (you just did what you accused others of doing...you politicized the issue.
I know you're trying to make a point about masks, but I'm going to address this... De Blasio put COVID+ patients in nursing homes with the elderly who were most at risk. It was so ridiculous because the hospitals had plenty of capacity, and the President even mobilized NAVY medical ships to dock in port (ASAP) to ensure they were protected. Yet still... De Blasio continued to fill nursing homes with patients, rather than put them on the ship, or even in the hospitals which had plenty of capacity.
Many of the liberal cities did this, put COVID+ patients in nursing homes. It's so totally absurd, that I almost question if it was on purpose.
It led to instances like this:
As for washing the face masks, I don't know anyone who has been doing this, and I've talked to many of my colleagues at work, and it didn't occur to any of them. I understand your point... but what SHOULD have happened is the elderly should have quarantined themselves, PERIOD. There was absolutely NO REASON to shut down the economy and destroy millions of lives.
For me personally, I have had at least 3 friends and colleagues kill themselves as a result of this pandemic, but don't personally know a single person who has died from COVID, and only one who even got remotely sick from it. It's a bad virus, but the cure has been far worse than the illness.
Suicide rates increased over 338% in just the month of March, and almost 800% by May. It disproportionately affects young people and minorities. We're all about doing what's fair... but rather than focus on quarantining and focusing on the elderly and people with pre-existing conditions, we instead impose authoritarian rule on everyone, leading to a disproportionate number of deaths to young people who will now never have the chance to live their lives...
And as this article will show, suicides are being under-reported, despite the fact that which has been reported, shows astronomical increases. In some cases, suicides are being recorded as COVID deaths. https://www.usatoday.com/st...-suicide/2300765001/
"The Department of Health said it had been counting as coronavirus deaths all people who died and tested positive for the disease. Authorities say they have now removed deaths from the count that weren’t caused specifically by COVID-19."
Originally posted by cliffw: Meaning the vaunted N95 can not stop corona virus.
And, they never claimed to be able to contain every individual covid particle. The '95' means it is supposed to stop 95% Just as a standard HEPA filter can't stop everything. The P100 stops everything above the .3 microns level but because it uses a very high quality non-woven interlining type fabric in it's filter, it stops smaller particles as well tho it is not NIOS rated for anything smaller than .3 microns. "100" actually means, according to CDC, 99.97. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/n...sp_part/default.html
No mask available to the general public at a reasonable price can stop everything 100%.
(The KN-95 masks you see advertised on TV currently, are using a Chinese standard, but As of April 2020, FDA has authorized use of KN95 standard as being equal to NIOS N-95, and has done the same for the European FFP2 standard, tho the FFP2 standard states it filters 'only' 94%)
I usually wash our home made masks about every 4 days........because we have so many, I don't need to wash every day. (To be honest, I've gotten to where I can cut out the pieces (inner and outer fabrics and 1 interior non-woven interfacing, and sew them up faster than I can wash and air dry one.)
For me personally, I have had at least 3 friends and colleagues kill themselves as a result of this pandemic, but don't personally know a single person who has died from COVID, and only one who even got remotely sick from it. It's a bad virus, but the cure has been far worse than the illness.
Only if you believe the increase in suicides compares in any way to the number of people that would have died had lockdowns and social distancing NOT taken place.
But if you are trying to compare economic and financial loss to death loss, then that's something I am not able to address, as I will always give the higher value to life over money any day of the week for all people. Dead people don't need money.
My nearest neighbor's mother currently has Covid19...approx 750' due North of where I am now sitting. I've met her a couple of times, but can't really say I know her. So far, she is doing ok..she's in her late 50s/early 60s.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-04-2020).]
And, they never claimed to be able to contain every individual covid particle. The '95' means it is supposed to stop 95% Just as a standard HEPA filter can't stop everything. The P100 stops everything above the .3 microns level but because it uses a very high quality non-woven interlining type fabric in it's filter, it stops smaller particles as well tho it is not NIOS rated for anything smaller than .3 microns. "100" actually means, according to CDC, 99.97. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/n...sp_part/default.html
No mask available to the general public at a reasonable price can stop everything 100%.
Many of the masks I see people wearing have an exhale vent flap, as do all the N95 masks that I have (which I bought years ago for when I'm spray painting, though I never used them because they didn't have a charcoal filter in them).
In any event, the masks with the exhale flap are basically totally pointless. We know that the masks are not to protect people from contracting it, but to *help* prevent the spread from people who already have it. The vent flaps *totally* defeat this purpose entirely.
Originally posted by maryjane: And, they never claimed to be able to contain every individual covid particle. The '95' means it is supposed to stop 95%.
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Originally posted by maryjane: A N-95 mask captures most of anything above .3 microns. A single Covid 10 virus particle measures somewhere between 0.06 µm, and the largest are about 0.14 µm. 1 µm=1 micron.
A N95 mask captures 95% of particles below .3 microns ?
The article has prominent references to these persons and topics: George Washington, John Locke, Alexander Hamilton, yellow fever, smallpox, Benjamin Rush.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-04-2020).]
My house-bound 80 year old mother-in-law has been living with me for 20 some years now. She asked if I could wear a mask whenever I'm around her in my own damn house. Of course I agreed.
I'm out in the World circulating. Personally, I pray every day the Virus take me. I don't care.
But IS possible I could inadvertently* bring something home to her which could kill her. My momentary slight discomfort verses someone's life. Logically, not one of the most challenging decisions i've ever had to make.
Listen, i'm considered by many here to be the dumbest person alive. So it really shouldn't be an issue for those intellectually above me.
To those that think they know better, stop being morons and just wear the fuggin' mask!
* I say inadvertently because I don't even really like her all that much. Not to mention she's robbed me of a chance at a clean exit!
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 07-04-2020).]
There is a big difference between a respirator and a mask. The mask prevents almost all large respiratory droplets from leaving the wearer...that is their sole purpose. The N-95 respirator with valve (as you called it..a flap) still provides the same filtration as a N-95 respirator without the valve. If a mask or respirator is rated by NIOSH or FDA as N95, then it is still providing the same level of filtering regardless of how it is made. I've not seen any home made masks with an exhale 'flap'.
Originally posted by Boondawg: My house-bound 80 year old mother-in-law has been living with me for 20 some years now. She asked if I could wear a mask whenever I'm around her in my own damn house. Of course I agreed.
Tell her she can still die. She should be wearing one too.
There is a big difference between a respirator and a mask. The mask prevents almost all large respiratory droplets from leaving the wearer...that is their sole purpose. The N-95 respirator with valve (as you called it..a flap) still provides the same filtration as a N-95 respirator without the valve. If a mask or respirator is rated by NIOSH or FDA as N95, then it is still providing the same level of filtering regardless of how it is made. I've not seen any home made masks with an exhale 'flap'.
Hmm... I'll have to take a look at it when I have a minute... maybe the valve goes the other way, which would totally have defeated the purpose for me having bought them to begin with.
This is pretty much more or less what I'm seeing everyone wear now... there's a valve on it. I don't know if that's to breath in, or to breath out...
ok..I have seen pictures of those before, but that one doesn't appear to be home made. Those are made to protect the wearer..the valve is a exhalation type valve and closes off on inhale. Usually used to protect a patient or other wearer in a dangerous situation, such as on a TB ward. It's not something I would use, as my concern is to protect others from me, not the other way around.
This is the type disposable mask often used and issued in hospitals. This one in fact came from Kingwood hospital and is one of many that I was handed while visiting my wife when she was admitted back in March.
It is to prevent fluids from leaving the wearer's respiratory and to offer some protection from blood splatter, mucus, and other fluids and aerosols.. As you can see by the name imprinted on it: "Halyard FluidShield" It is rated differently, by ASTM levels. They do not fit tightly against the face nor were they designed to. This one, is ASTM F2100-11 Level 3. ASTM level 1 masks are the general standard for both surgical and procedural use. Level 2: moderate barrier protection for low-to-moderate levels of aerosols, sprays and fluids. Level 3: maximum barrier protection for any situation that has the potential for exposure to heavy levels of aerosols, sprays and fluids
DESCRIPTION ASTM F2100-11 Level 3Halyard Health FLUIDSHIELD* masks have long been considered the industry standard. Our new FLUIDSHIELD* Level 3 masks now meet the ASTM F2100-11 Level 3 standard. Designed to provide high fluid resistance, FLUIDSHIELD* Level 3 masks are available as either surgical masks with ties or procedure masks with earloops and include a wraparound visor for added protection.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-05-2020).]
ok..I have seen pictures of those before, but that one doesn't appear to be home made. Those are made to protect the wearer..the valve is a exhalation type valve and closes off on inhale. Usually used to protect a patient or other wearer in a dangerous situation, such as on a TB ward. It's not something I would use, as my concern is to protect others from me, not the other way around.
Yeah, I didn't mean made from home. But what I meant by this is that "that" kind of mask, that's what I'm seeing everywhere. For people who are actually wearing them (even at work), everyone is wearing those. Which again, as we discussed, basically does nothing. A mask doesn't really protect you unless you're doing something with a lot of dust, it basically does nothing for the wearer to prevent you from getting sick, and since it has an exhale valve, it does nothing for others... almost everyone that I've seen (that aren't using the disposable white/blue ones) are wearing these.
Everyone should be proud of where they're from, and I am.
