Since apparantly, it is so incredibly difficult for some of you to have any kind of discussion in a civilized way, and since I'm getting sick and tired of the hundreds of posts that get reported to me (not to mention the PMs and emails), I'm temporarily moving political threads to the Trash Can. Maybe I'll move them back later, maybe I'll rename "The Trash Can" to "Politics". We'll see.
It's either that or banning of political threads altogether or closing TO/T until I'm convinced people can behave again. Don't like political threads being in The Trash Can? Tough luck. Go find some politics forum instead of posting your diatribes on a car forum.
I'm starting with moving political threads that have new posts since yesterday. Every other political thread here in TO/T that gets a new post, will be moved to The Trash Can
I suspect the trashcan will simply start being a very busy place and then, the same bad actors will just misbehave there and whichever party 1st feels aggrieved will start reporting trashcan posts.
I suspect the trashcan will simply start being a very busy place and then, the same bad actors will just misbehave there and whichever party 1st feels aggrieved will start reporting trashcan posts.
Undoubtedly, but at least TO/T will be a much nicer place. Plus, when someone says "it stinks in the trash can", I can say "well yeah, the name kinda implies that".
Yep. You got your work cut out for you for sure tho. Thanks for your efforts!
If people would stick with the issues themselves, instead of calling one another stupid for their stance on the issue being discussed, it would be fine, but there are a few who insist on making it personal. Once one goes down that path, it's no longer a political discussion.
Folks..pay attention. 16 threads either locked or moved to the trashcan in a matter of a few weeks. Cliff is NOT half steppin here. We best all get our act together if you want a place to play.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-21-2022).]
The thing I never get, is what it actually is they are trying to convince each other of.
If two people have different views on a subject, then in my mind, you will try to convince the other by saying "I believe your view is incorrect because I believe you are misinformed".
What I see instead is that they say "your view is incorrect because you are stupid".
In the first case, there's a chance that one of the two parties says "I stand corrected. I was indeed misinformed". What will never happen is that someone will say "I stand corrected, I am indeed stupid".
Problem is, some facts can be interpreted in more than one way. And neither is incorrect.
The thing I never get, is what it actually is they are trying to convince each other of.
If two people have different views on a subject, then in my mind, you will try to convince the other by saying "I believe your view is incorrect because I believe you are misinformed".
What I see instead is that they say "your view is incorrect because you are stupid".
In the first case, there's a chance that one of the two parties says "I stand corrected. I was indeed misinformed". What will never happen is that someone will say "I stand corrected, I am indeed stupid".
Problem is, some facts can be interpreted in more than one way. And neither is incorrect.
Very true, but it is the facts (or data) that are interpreted and new info can mean yesterday's facts are out the window. Still, neither of those means someone is stupid.
I don't understand the reporting. Why? It's politics, it gets messy sometimes, It'll likely never be things we agree on. I get that almost all of us are just peeing into the wind, but I enjoy some of it. :/
I really enjoy reading different the different points of view, but we do get out of hand from time to time.
Me and a few of my friends ran a gaming community for a little over a decade. Started in the late 90's, lasted until 2011 when we finally shut the site down.
We had a great community of people from all over the country. At our peak i think we had around 3500 members, and running 5 different game servers. We even had teams in the community that competed in the early pro game leagues OGL, CAL, for games like Counter Strike and Battlefield 2. Every year we would meet up in Atlanta for our annual lan party. Rent out the conference room for a weekend, and everyone brings their PC's and we all set up and game all weekend. Having a lan party with 400+ people is quite the experience, it was a blast. Were even sponsored by Nvidia and gave away graphics cards and shirts and stuff as prizes.
Me and my buddy funded the community for years, but as things grew eventually we needed help, so a few more people joined our "counsel" that helped fund the site and servers. I always had a strict rule on the forums.. No religion, and no politics.
About 10 years in, some members started asking for a "religion/politics" section be added to the forums. I said no, and so did my buddy. But the other 3 "funders" didn't see harm in it, so i was out voted, and the section was added to the forum..
In less than two years, it destroyed our community. Dozens of friendships were broken, people started leaving in droves. Eventually i removed it, but it was too late. Too much was said, to many feelings and egos hurt, ect.
If you want to have a site/community dedicated to a hobby or whatever.. I recommend keeping it strictly to that. Easiest way to kill a community is to allow religion and politics to enter the discussion.
Me and a few of my friends ran a gaming community for a little over a decade. Started in the late 90's, lasted until 2011 when we finally shut the site down.
We had a great community of people from all over the country. At our peak i think we had around 3500 members, and running 5 different game servers. We even had teams in the community that competed in the early pro game leagues OGL, CAL, for games like Counter Strike and Battlefield 2. Every year we would meet up in Atlanta for our annual lan party. Rent out the conference room for a weekend, and everyone brings their PC's and we all set up and game all weekend. Having a lan party with 400+ people is quite the experience, it was a blast. Were even sponsored by Nvidia and gave away graphics cards and shirts and stuff as prizes.
Me and my buddy funded the community for years, but as things grew eventually we needed help, so a few more people joined our "counsel" that helped fund the site and servers. I always had a strict rule on the forums.. No religion, and no politics.
About 10 years in, some members started asking for a "religion/politics" section be added to the forums. I said no, and so did my buddy. But the other 3 "funders" didn't see harm in it, so i was out voted, and the section was added to the forum..
In less than two years, it destroyed our community. Dozens of friendships were broken, people started leaving in droves. Eventually i removed it, but it was too late. Too much was said, to many feelings and egos hurt, ect.
If you want to have a site/community dedicated to a hobby or whatever.. I recommend keeping it strictly to that. Easiest way to kill a community is to allow religion and politics to enter the discussion.
Just my experience.
My experience comes from having grown as an individual, and doing all the things wrong that I probably wouldn't do today.
We are a product of our environment, and our influences... or even perhaps, LACK of influences.
You need only look on here 10-20 years back to see plenty of things that I've said and done that I wouldn't be proud of today. But the one thing I've learned more than anything... it's about being emotional about these things. I had a lot of friends growing up as a young adult that spanned the political spectrum. We became friends for other reasons. As we got older or... as things simply became more political, we still remained friends because we knew that in "times of need," we'd each be there for each other. We still fight and even yell at each other (in e-mails), but we're still really good friends... because again, we know that our politics shouldn't define who we are as a person. Maybe the party signifies some of the characteristics we have as individuals, but it shouldn't define us.
The problem arises (my opinion) when you adopt the party line as your way of life. This is something that political parties want, actually... because you become so supportive that you cannot look past someone's political affiliation without labeling them as something. I've TRIED... at least, in the past decade or so... to be increasingly more relaxed about the way I respond to things. I accept not everyone has the same views and influences as me. While I do obviously think my opinions are the right ones, it doesn't meant that I shouldn't still accept the fact that others are equally committed to their opinions.
NOT having a discussion about these topics of course does not /really/ solve anything I think... we're still going to have our opinion. As a collective society, we need to be able to learn to deal with the modern information age, and our opinions. "Back in the day," the only people who acted the way they do were politicians, and a few really, really radical people... who were all crazy, and made up like 1%. We could like or dislike a president, but it wasn't something as pervasive in our day to day lives.
Because of social media, internet blogs, and the 24/7 news cycle... this is a learning curve that humanity will need to recon with, and stopping this discourse simply delays the inevitable.
Perhaps its time to update the number of ratings that your rating bar shows up and the number of negatives before getting put on probation/banned
I do not venture into the other parts of the forum very often. But I do visit OT just to keep up with some of the friends I have made here on the forum. But the number of posts and visits from users here in OT has dropped and I assume that is due to everyone migrating to FB or other places because they are on everyone's phone now and people are lazy.
I would hate to see OT close as I don't have any Fiero discussions mostly because I have not owned a Fiero in well over 6 years. I would probably just not visit as often or not at all and for those of us that are in the same boat it will probably cause more of us to drift apart.
I have had a lot of fun and have learned a lot on here, after 7 Fiero's I do not see having the opportunity to start another Fiero project anytime soon if at all. It would be sad to not come on here and talk with you guys but such is life. If that does happen then I wish you well and hope that life is kind to you and your family. Lest hope that the world becomes a better place before any of us moves on. Been a hell of a ride and a lot of fun.
Lets hope that OT does not come to a close, I would hate to spend my last days chatting with you guys in the trash
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: NOT having a discussion about these topics of course does not /really/ solve anything I think... we're still going to have our opinion. As a collective society, we need to be able to learn to deal with the modern information age, and our opinions. "Back in the day," the only people who acted the way they do were politicians, and a few really, really radical people... who were all crazy, and made up like 1%. We could like or dislike a president, but it wasn't something as pervasive in our day to day lives.
.
That's all well and good, i have no problem with people getting into discussions about religion or politics or whatever. But there are places and times for that. You don't really have to do it HERE.. That's kinda my point. If you want to talk those kinds of things with members here, then setup a forum, go there, have heated discussions there. Why does it have to be here, in this forum? It's what i used to tell my community members that wanted a section for it, "Go start your own forum, and have at it"..
I expressed this thought yesterday, in a thread that is now in the Trash Can.
"Don't tell anyone"
I didn't check in with this to provoke anyone. Just a "funny." It doesn't take much to activate the "joke" neurons here. An anomalously low signal threshold...
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-21-2022).]
I expressed this thought yesterday, in a thread that is now in the Trash Can.
"Don't tell anyone"
I didn't check in with this to provoke anyone. Just a "funny." It doesn't take much to activate the "joke" neurons here. An anomalously low signal threshold...
I think we can all agree that Totally O/T has gone down hill because of Rinselberg's violent outbursts and constant rage. I for one have felt threatened and am concerned for my safety.
At first, I was surprised that you get bombarded by reported posts, PMs and emails from forum members who are complaining or offended, because I have never or would never do something like that. I consider myself a grown man. But then I’m not surprised that there are plenty of people who would.
I enjoyed the resources, news links, videos and humorous memes that people contribute to controversial and political topics. I understand that you moved it to the trash can. I respect and honor your decision.
ya know, some of us just like to argue. but, yeah, some can take it personal, and some may even hit personally. and thats a no no, and a sign of failing in the presentation of the opinion.
I left T/OT awhile ago, and can only imagine what its was like in the Trump years.
but, just sold my Fiero, so, doubt I'll be on at all in the future.
been fun. and, I will say, leave somewhere people can argue.
It's a "q" that flipped over before it landed. You are misinformed.
You guys are just being mean.
It's obviously non-binary, since it is neither a zero nor a one. So, the only woke thing to do is wait for the symbol to declare their* preferred pronouns.
*their being a non gender or quantity specific pronoun
Edit: I am going to go ahead and apologize now. I realize that "their" is a possessive pronoun and to possess something is quickly falling out of favor. It is clearly a Capitalist concept and should be scorned.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 02-21-2022).]
It's obviously non-binary, since it is neither a zero nor a one. So, the only woke thing to do is wait for the symbol to declare their* preferred pronouns.
*their being a non gender or quantity specific pronoun
Edit: I am going to go ahead and apologize now. I realize that "their" is a possessive pronoun and to possess something is quickly falling out of favor. It is clearly a Capitalist concept and should be scorned.
This is a wonderful example of what humor is. Thanks for posting it Willie.
There are several members of this forum, but one in particular, who love to attach labels to people. Anyone who doesn't conform to their specific view of the world is labelled a "Leftist". Doesn't matter if those labelled as "Leftists" have varying opinions on plenty of topics, they've been pigeon-holed as "Leftists", and are continually referred to as "Leftists" here.
And what may you ask is the point of labeling people as "Leftists". Simple... the forum posting rules about being "civilized" with each other are circumvented by posting the nastiest crap on a daily basis directed at "Leftists". So yeah, the people doing the labeling and the subsequent trash talk can smugly say that they're not stating anything personal, that it's directed at a group. It's such a bogus excuse, but this mockery of the forum rules has been working wonderfully for them for years!
Here's an example...
"Cliff Pennock, you're a Centralist." ... "Centralists are toad licking monkey waxers." ... "You're a Centralist, Cliff Pennock."
Now multiply that by ten times, a hundred times, a thousand times. It gets more than tiresome.
And I admit, I'm as guilty as anyone here for responding to this continual harassment in a less than polite fashion. And I make no apologies for that. I've seen too many fine decent people just leave this forum because they're fed up with the constant baiting.
I'm all for politics being put (and kept) in the Trash Can. It's where it's always belonged. I doubt anyone's opinion on a matter has ever been changed by the nonsense that passes for political "discussion" here in O/T. Let the people who enjoy all the political posturing wallow in their own filth elsewhere.
My take on this picture being used as a "everyone sees things differently" is that the person that drew the non-binary she/he/letter knew what it was, and what it was supposed to represent. It's everyone coming by later saying what they think it is.
It IS a certain thing, could be a 6, could be a 9, but the person who placed it there knows and everyone else is either right or wrong. There aren't multiple answers to what something is, things are or are not.
It's Cliffs house, I get that. I also get that he should have taken the train. I'm not successful, and I'm not telling him how to do anything at all. This is all just a thought exercise.
O/T used to be a hopping place. People were constantly posting projects they were working on. Cliff gave cars their own section to take away the clutter. I don't know how that section is doing, I don't go over there. But I miss a lot of the projects and people that were here. Part of O/T was removed and I bet traffic overall started dropping. O/T certainly dropped in activity. We don't click around a lot here, we scroll and read.
Now were removing another thing from O/T and putting it somewhere else. At what point does simply removing things kill the patient? There are subsections to the forums, and each started post is supposed to choose a subsection. The viewers then choose what they can see or not see. I don't understand (as I said before) people choosing to read something, and then reporting it... That seems to be a part of the problem to me. Encourage them to un-click politics or grow thicker skin.
Allow us to block certain members in extreme cases, just make their posts blank to us or something. I don't know.
Since apparantly, it is so incredibly difficult for some of you to have any kind of discussion in a civilized way, and since I'm getting sick and tired of the hundreds of posts that get reported to me (not to mention the PMs and emails), I'm temporarily moving political threads to the Trash Can. Maybe I'll move them back later, maybe I'll rename "The Trash Can" to "Politics". We'll see.
It's either that or banning of political threads altogether or closing TO/T until I'm convinced people can behave again. Don't like political threads being in The Trash Can? Tough luck. Go find some politics forum instead of posting your diatribes on a car forum.
I'm starting with moving political threads that have new posts since yesterday. Every other political thread here in TO/T that gets a new post, will be moved to The Trash Can
Presumably your posting rules will still be in effect there, as they should be.
I understand why Mr Pennock is moving the political threads to the trash can, but I am disappointed that it had to happen.
I see two issues that are causing the problem:
1) There is a small handful of regular posters who insist on trying to pick fights with everyone. Regardless of the motivation, this juvenile behavior needs to cease.
2) If someone is offended by a word or an idea, he should just lock all of his doors and cancel his internet. It is not up to Mr Pennock to make him comfortable. Stop bothering him.
Both problems could be solved by following some simple advice: Grow up.
Allow us to block certain members in extreme cases, just make their posts blank to us or something. I don't know.
A lot of the other forums I am on have "block" features to get rid of irritants. They are only semi-successful in the quoted text (like I did above) is not blocked so some irritants still filter through.
It does help cut down on it though.
Only one I know of that really works properly is farcebooks, and my block list there is literally over a hundred long. Some of that is fact-checkers but a good chunk is still just ones I dont wanna deal with. (NOPE, a "block' doesnt limit their right to free speech but it does enforce my right not to be the audience.)
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 02-21-2022).]
I've considered several solutions - all take quite some time to implement.
But these political threads were getting out of hand and were polluting TO/T. I miss TO/T as it used to be. A place to unwind and have some fun. It used to be my favorite place on PFF. Now I'd rather see it go because of all the petty bickering going on here and the amount of crap I get because of it. I'm not talking about the mails, PMs, reported posts. I'm talking about the crap I receive from people accusing me of some kind of favoritism. That I allow person A to say things, but not person B. That I myself am a lefty/rightwing/socialist/capitalist/whatever. While the simple fact is that I don't read every post on PFF. Far from it. In fact, I only read posts people direct my attention to.
quote
I've considered several solutions - all take quite some time to implement.
Temporarily moving political threads to The Trash Can is not really a solution, but it will clean up TO/T in the short term. I will not ban religious or political threads. I still believe you should be able to discuss (almost) anything on PFF. But like I said, I want TO/T to go back to what it once was.
People always seem to accuse others of how they're behaving. Some sorta projection or transference. Growing up is something a lot of people need to do, and the irony of some of the people posting in this very thread is notable.
Perverting people's usernames because you don't agree with their opinion. Making personal insults because you don't like someone's opinion....growing up doesn't appear to be in the cards.
Since apparantly, it is so incredibly difficult for some of you to have any kind of discussion in a civilized way,
SNIP I'm starting with moving political threads that have new posts since yesterday. Every other political thread here in TO/T that gets a new post, will be moved to The Trash Can
Based on the above posting, I can easily see most of the COVID threads going to the same place for the same reasons. Probably due to the same players.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-21-2022).]
