Pivoting the conversation to a different subject, for Cliff P: What's the latest sense in Europe on Ukraine now that Putin has recognized the 2 breakaway provinces and ordered troops into those areas? Will Russian troops continue West right up to the Donetsk/Luhansk-Ukraine border or stop in the middle of the disputed territories?
Pivoting the conversation to a different subject, for Cliff P: What's the latest sense in Europe on Ukraine now that Putin has recognized the 2 breakaway provinces and ordered troops into those areas? Will Russian troops continue West right up to the Donetsk/Luhansk-Ukraine border or stop in the middle of the disputed territories?
Now you brought up politics and this thread must be moved to the Trash Can.
I didn't call anyone names or try to initiate an argument.
Neither did I, and since there is no "sarcasm" - "humor" button or indicator that I know of, there isn't any real need to be defensive about it.
Like others here, I'm still wondering what exactly / officially constitutes "politics" or "political" that will make a thread destined for the Trash Can.
I'm sure we will be told "Whatever I decide it is" by Mr. Pennock, and that is absolutely his prerogative, but in the interim we can at least hope for something more definitive and instructive.
I absolutely encourage the creation of a "POLITICS" subcategory in O/T because as it presently stands nobody can start a new thread in the "Trash Can" which obviously makes the decision of what is, or is not, "politics" the sole chore, of Cliff Pennock and does little or nothing to relieve his expressed annoyance at having to deal with such threads.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 02-22-2022).]
I think all political threads should be there permanently. As long as the forum rules still apply and people can still discuss politics without bothering OT.
People don't ever want to admit their contribution.
Get it out of your system sourmash, I fully admit to counter punching your attacks. And when I do, I normally report my own posts to admin if I think I've gotten close to the line.
Go ahead, let it out. As I've stated previously, when it comes to some, tolerance is not the ticket.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-21-2022).]
In a very real sense, politics and religion permeate every aspect of our lives, from what we eat (kosher, vegan, rabid carnivore) to what we choose to drive (Prius or 3/4 ton FWD).
A few years ago, after Boondawg (among a few others) tried to start fights in every thread I posted, I started marking many of my music threads as "politics" if there was any chance at all that someone could see controversy in the topic. Music is filled with the stories of political and ethnic strife, and I think that is one of the most fascinating things about its history. I have said before that music is anthropology, but that cannot be discussed without including religion and politics.
I guess that might seem like rambling, but sometimes it seems like I can't even mention that it is a sunny day without someone saying, "Why do you hate rain?"
Get it out of your system sourmash, I fully admit to counter punching your attacks. And when I do, I normally report my own posts to admin if I think I've gotten close to the line.
Go ahead, let it out. As I've stated previously, when it comes to some, tolerance is not the ticket.
It'd be a good idea to delete the portion of a post that violates the rules. A meme posted that remains in place will just foment more discontent from more people and that was the goal of the person who posted it. But it ain't my board and we're guests.
It'd be a good idea to delete the portion of a post that violates the rules.
If you are suggesting that a moderator go through threads and edit posts, I would disagree. That would take a lot of time. Make people go out of their way to a seldom used section of the Forum to discuss politics. This seems best to me. Over the years the majority of complaints from Forum members is about angry political issues. I don't want to see political discussions banned from PFF, but I admit that politics is ugly, move it out of the mainstream OT discussion.
If you are suggesting that a moderator go through threads and edit posts, I would disagree. That would take a lot of time. Make people go out of their way to a seldom used section of the Forum to discuss politics. This seems best to me. Over the years the majority of complaints from Forum members is about angry political issues. I don't want to see political discussions banned from PFF, but I admit that politics is ugly, move it out of the mainstream OT discussion.
This should not be an undue burden on Cliff.
No, I am not asking for that at all. It only pertains to reported posts. If it warrants a suspension as happened recently, or is a violation just wipe the offending meme or comment.
Rather than relying on a moderator to create a particular area for political wrangling, simply don't open threads marked 'politics'.
Self censor rather than promote any type of censorship of speech.
If one doesn't want to participate, then use your mental 'ignore' function.
Our system is built on personal responsibility.
We need to get back to that on lots of levels.
Why should we burden Mr. Pennock with our own lack of the exercising of personal responsibility.
Just Say No.
I don't think you are wrong, in fact I agree, in principle. In practice this hasn't worked and has led up to this point. Cliff has mentioned this behavior before and after all his efforts to curb it, here we are. Politics doesn't have to be a part of PFF, but the risk is that topics become political or close enough that they will get closed if politics is banned. There should be an outlet for political discussion that does not.bother others. That includes seeing the traffic of political threads clog the first page.
I don't think you are wrong, in fact I agree, in principle. In practice this hasn't worked and has led up to this point. Cliff has mentioned this behavior before and after all his efforts to curb it, here we are. Politics doesn't have to be a part of PFF, but the risk is that topics become political or close enough that they will get closed if politics is banned. There should be an outlet for political discussion that does not.bother others. That includes seeing the traffic of political threads clog the first page.
Everything worked fine the way it was for many years.
Much like the gun control arguments proffered by the left, placing additional restrictions on responsible adults will not change the behavior of a few antisocial troublemakers. It is up to us to self police.
Again, I agree in principle, but Cliff is in this very situation again because something hasn't prevented the arguments. I should know, because I have been in many of those arguments. Even I fail to use restraint, but even if I were to become a model forum member, how could I expect others to the same? They make up their own mind
So, how do you think this issue should be dealt with? I ignore posts, topics, and persons but that is how I deal with this issue. Others don't do this, so arguments and related stuff bother Cliff and others. How can this issue be resolved, in your opinion? I don't see a problem with politics being moved out of OT, I don't see it as censorship or any other type of violation of civility. We have several other sections of PFF so as to narrow down the traffic that people may not be looking for. Political threads to me fit that exact bill. If people don't drink, they don't go in the Bar, we shouldn't bring the bar, pool tables and associated problems out to the streets where people are doing fine with out it. We will all know where to go to jump in the political arena,.....IF we feel adult enough for it.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 02-22-2022).]
Part of the problem with moving "political" threads is that almost anything can become political. I have had people try to start arguments in music threads, as I mentioned above. I once started a thread about a video where someone was discussing racism in music education. I marked the thread as political and stated that in my first post. A member (who is now banned) tried to start an argument about the fact that I marked the thread as political. I started a tread about guitars, only to have another (now banned) antisocial member try to accuse me of sending him "PM rants". The problem is not the topic, but rather a few antisocial individuals.
Whether someone shoots up a nightclub, a Christmas party, a Walmart or a movie theater, the problem is not the gun or the public gathering, but rather the person who commits the act. The solution is to identify these people and isolate them from polite society.
edit: That gives me an idea. Instead of sending a thread or topic to the trash can, or putting a user on probation, send the user to the trash can. Create an area, call it jail or kindergarten or purgatory, but restrict a troublemaker to detention. Let him rant and rave all he wants, let the world see. But he won't be bothering the adults. I know, silly idea, but it would be fun to watch.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 02-22-2022).]
Part of the problem with moving "political" threads is that almost anything can become political. I have had people try to start arguments in music threads, as I mentioned above. I once started a thread about a video where someone was discussing racism in music education. I marked the thread as political and stated that in my first post. A member (who is now banned) tried to start an argument about the fact that I marked the thread as political. I started a tread about guitars, only to have another (now banned) antisocial member try to accuse me of sending him "PM rants". The problem is not the topic, but rather a few antisocial individuals.
Whether someone shoots up a nightclub, a Christmas party, a Walmart or a movie theater, the problem is not the gun or the public gathering, but rather the person who commits the act. The solution is to identify these people and isolate them from polite society.
edit: That gives me an idea. Instead of sending a thread or topic to the trash can, or putting a user on probation, send the user to the trash can. Create an area, call it jail or kindergarten or purgatory, but restrict a troublemaker to detention. Let him rant and rave all he wants, let the world see. But he won't be bothering the adults. I know, silly idea, but it would be fun to watch.
I agree that political threads them selfs aren't the problem, but that the individuals themselves can cause an issue in any thread. BUT what do you think would resolve this issue? We all know there are a few topics that can make people's blood boil and politics is one of them. Members have been banned (some came back under different names) they have been on probation and warned multiple times. But yet,... this issue is alive and well. People let arguments get the best of them. Currently I believe the forum rules are fine,.... for me. But they don't stop others from staying civil. Something needs to change to encourage better behavior
In polite society (remember when there was polite society), those in close proximity to the trouble makers ostracized them - until they changed their tune or someone not so polite changed their tune for them.
The ratings system worked when there was a lot of traffic on this Forum. There isn't much traffic anymore......and most of the traffic that is here seems to be in O/T.....in the political threads.
I agree that political threads them selfs aren't the problem, but that the individuals themselves can cause an issue in any thread. BUT what do you think would resolve this issue? We all know there are a few topics that can make people's blood boil and politics is one of them. Members have been banned (some came back under different names) they have been on probation and warned multiple times. But yet,... this issue is alive and well. People let arguments get the best of them. Currently I believe the forum rules are fine,.... for me. But they don't stop others from staying civil. Something needs to change to encourage better behavior
When is the last time you heard about Rosie O'Donnell or Pee Wee Herman? Not in a long time, right? Why? Because nobody goes to their shows. We ignored them and they went away.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 02-22-2022).]
In polite society (remember when there was polite society), those in close proximity to the trouble makers ostracized them - until they changed their tune or someone not so polite changed their tune for them.
The ratings system worked when there was a lot of traffic on this Forum. There isn't much traffic anymore......and most of the traffic that is here seems to be in O/T.....in the political threads.
Yes, I remember because quite honestly there is still a lot of polite people around. But here on PFF we have to deal with a phenomenon called "keyboard warriors". This is a behavior that takes over some people in the absence of personal physical presence of others. The primal nature in some people comes out when interacting with the anonymous screen, the lack of attitude adjustments. Obviously I am not talking about physical adjustments but simply facial and body language is a huge factor in communicating. Without it, conversation can be "lacking". This is normal for the average person, add to this anonymous digital community the edgy or normally abrasive personalities, and now we are where we are now discussing this issue again and making forum rules changes to combat this behavior. So I simply ask, what you think would be a good idea to deal with this issue. The current system isn't preventing the bad behavior and continuing without outright banishment will also fail.
When is the last time you heard about Rosie O'Donnell or Pee Wee Herman? Not in a long time, right? Why? Because nobody goes to their shows. We ignored them and they went away.
Last time I looked several threads just got moved because people couldn't ignore them. I agree that people should avoid this bad behavior, but I am not in denial of the fact that things change. If Rosie or Pee Wee were on PFF they might have been contributing to the behavior, and or be the focusof it??
I don't understand the reporting. Why? It's politics, it gets messy sometimes, It'll likely never be things we agree on. I get that almost all of us are just peeing into the wind, but I enjoy some of it. :/
I really enjoy reading different the different points of view, but we do get out of hand from time to time.
I have reported maybe 3 or 4 of randye’s posts. I don’t think I ever reported any before then.
It’s not because I’m “offended,” it’s because he clearly and often violates forum rules that Cliff has specifically put in place to stem some of the vitriol.
I have had tons of pleasant, fruitful conversations with users who vehemently disagree with me, and vice versa. Randy seems to have a hard time doing so. It’s worth specifically calling out, and if I get banned for this, then I am banned. But he, personally, has made this forum a worse place to be. He, personally, attacks multiple users and doesn’t let off until he gets a reaction. It’s hard to watch.
I am only really here for politics (lol), so even my limited presence here will go way down. I don’t want politics to go away at all. I hope that I didn’t contribute to this in a meaningful way by reporting a small handful of comments.
Hundreds of posts getting reported? Is some of the problem a member or two who are report happy? I'm just curious if there is a trend there.
Threads and thread starters, and non problem users should not be punished by thread removal for certain users issues.
Also of concern, are any of the reporters also participants in what are deemed "overly agressive arguments" for lack of a better word?
Are we asking for too many answers and upsetting Cliff, or is Cliff simply not taking the train again and said his peace (piece)? He's a repeat offender as we all know.
First, It's Cliffs house. I've loved being here for years, many years. I've made a lot of friends, I've met many awesome people because of this place, because of Cliff. I've considered this place home since I first joined as TwoFatGuys way back when. I was a kid then, I'm old now. I grew older (probably not wiser) with a lot of you guys. I've posted my share of stupid things, I've shared my life with this group. I've made lifelong, and very close friends with people I would have never known from around the world.
Since nearly the beginning I hung around O/T. I like the random nature of it all. But it's been whittled away over the years, and at times seemed to be waiting for someone to notice it had died. As I said before, I think it's because things got sorted into other forums. The car projects went away to some far away place and I think we all noticed the drop in posts when that happened. I think a lot of us looked forward to all the random car projects people had going on. We're all car guys after all. But I couldn't tell you what's happening in that area now. Looking there, the last post was 10 days ago. Now Politics and Religion are far away. How many things are there (realistically) to talk about here. The page relies on traffic to stay alive, and traffic keeps getting cut.
I'm not leaving, but I'm probably going to seek out something else for regular visits. I don't want just Politics, I don't want just "I need help with _______", I don't want just jokes, I want all the random whatever that it used to be here.
Like I said, it's all Cliffs choice, and he wants us to only talk about certain things in certain areas. I don't think most of us click from page to page, just as most people don't go beyond page 1 on Google searches. I see this change as an end to the Forum as a whole. I know it's a "Fiero" Forum, the last post on the main "Fiero" page was three hours ago, and prior to that was over 12 hours ago. (At this posting) I think all the dividing of things is a mistake, but I'm not a guy that runs the worlds largest Fiero Forum. I know that there are a lot of people, most of them, that are a LOT smarter than I am on these things.
