First, It's Cliffs house. I've loved being here for years, many years. I've made a lot of friends, I've met many awesome people because of this place, because of Cliff. I've considered this place home since I first joined as TwoFatGuys way back when. I was a kid then, I'm old now. I grew older (probably not wiser) with a lot of you guys. I've posted my share of stupid things, I've shared my life with this group. I've made lifelong, and very close friends with people I would have never known from around the world.
Since nearly the beginning I hung around O/T. I like the random nature of it all. But it's been whittled away over the years, and at times seemed to be waiting for someone to notice it had died. As I said before, I think it's because things got sorted into other forums. The car projects went away to some far away place and I think we all noticed the drop in posts when that happened. I think a lot of us looked forward to all the random car projects people had going on. We're all car guys after all. But I couldn't tell you what's happening in that area now. Looking there, the last post was 10 days ago. Now Politics and Religion are far away. How many things are there (realistically) to talk about here. The page relies on traffic to stay alive, and traffic keeps getting cut.
I'm not leaving, but I'm probably going to seek out something else for regular visits. I don't want just Politics, I don't want just "I need help with _______", I don't want just jokes, I want all the random whatever that it used to be here.
Like I said, it's all Cliffs choice, and he wants us to only talk about certain things in certain areas. I don't think most of us click from page to page, just as most people don't go beyond page 1 on Google searches. I see this change as an end to the Forum as a whole. I know it's a "Fiero" Forum, the last post on the main "Fiero" page was three hours ago, and prior to that was over 12 hours ago. (At this posting) I think all the dividing of things is a mistake, but I'm not a guy that runs the worlds largest Fiero Forum. I know that there are a lot of people, most of them, that are a LOT smarter than I am on these things.
Brad
That is pretty much how I feel. I used to like O/T because someone could start a thread about fishing lures and by the second page we were talking about Chinese pottery.
I moderated the Harley-Davidson forum for a little while, but I quickly learned what a bunch of whiny children a group of "bikers" can be. I don't go there anymore.
Willie, I enjoy your music posts/threads. Your political comments? Not so much.
Am I picking on you? Absolutely not. I'm just using you as an example (due to the positive things that you post) as to why, in my opinion, that it's best to try and keep hobbies/interests separate from politics (and religion). Is this how I live my life away from the forum? Yes, most certainly.
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:
Everything worked fine the way it was for many years.
Not true, at all. I've been a member of PFF for ten years longer than you. There has always been infighting here between those oriented towards the left and those leaning to the right.
There have been, and there presently are, certain members here who unfortunately seem to get off on this strife.
Randy seems to have a hard time doing so. It’s worth specifically calling out, and if I get banned for this, then I am banned. But he, personally, has made this forum a worse place to be. He, personally, attacks multiple users and doesn’t let off until he gets a reaction. It’s hard to watch.
So him calling people out for their bullsh!t is the problem? Got it.
You were the kid in class that put their hand over their mouth and said Oommm, I'm telling the teacher! weren't you? Grow the fug up.
[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 02-22-2022).]
I often wondered if all this bickering, name calling, and general insults within these topics can have a negative effect on Cliff's ability to be monetized by Google.
Cliff, first of all... thank-you thank-you for creating the Politics & Religion sub-section. Much appreciated.
I'm so glad that members here who enjoy political "discussion" now have their own little corner to reside in where they can focus on resolving world problems.
May I make one suggestion in regards to O/T (and this may've already been requested)?
It's inevitable that a perfectly fine O/T thread will be "sabotaged" by inappropriate political comments. May I suggest that instead of the entire thread then being banished to the new sub-section, that the offending post simply be deleted from the thread? These inappropriate posts could be reported to you in the usual manner, and it probably wouldn't take much of a gander by you to determine that comments about Nazis, Leftists, Trump, Biden, Trudeau, whomever/whatever don't belong in a thread about composting. Well, maybe they do, but I think you catch my drift. Thanks.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-22-2022).]
So him calling people out for their bullsh!t is the problem? Got it.
You were the kid in class that put their hand over their mouth and said Oommm, I'm telling the teacher! weren't you? Grow the fug up.
I'd characterize it as frequent unprovoked attacks on their character and intelligence.
I posted another (expanded) version of this comment in the Politics subreddit [edit: topic ], but as it's the same thread of conversation, here are some snippets of activity:
quote
Originally posted by randye without provocation here:
EDIT:
Proving the old saying: "Even a blind squirrel eventually gathers a random nut", our PENNOCKS PURVEYOR OF PERJURY actually somehow managed to get one right.
I just read through the federal grand jury indictment.
It is 11 people indicted for "seditious conspiracy".
^I thought this one was particularly interesting, because this is how he said the other user was right... by calling them a "PENNOCKS PURVEYOR OF PERJURY ."
quote
Originally posted by randye without provocation here:
.... but, as I pointed out, your lack of competence in this has been absolutely no barrier to your inflated self assessment that you know better than the authors, researchers and publishers of that medical study.... (See: Dunning - Kruger reference) ...
Since this is likely to be extremely tedious and also likely to be completely unproductive with you, let's start with what should be the simplest thing:
IF you had the competence to understand what you presumably read you would NOT have ridiculously asked "Has this been peer reviewed?"
...
Even a casual, lay, reader should have at least questioned where the study came from as evidenced by it's header, but you are completely oblivious and incurious.....
...and your clear incompetence with the subject matter at hand is then demonstrated with your question: Has this been peer-reviewed?
I'll leave you to go back again and try desperately to ferret out what the "control group" in that study is.
It's clearly there and it's as obvious as the peer review you aren't competent in this area to understand.
...
quote
Originally posted by randye with some provocation, depending on how you read the comments, here:
...
I'm not sure I have enough time or crayons to explain it to you so that you will understand, ...
quote
Originally posted by randye without provocation here:
The post after it is proof positive that I have a Leftist troll shadowing me after every post that I make in this and other threads.
^On its own? Not a big deal. But then when that person responded, he said he never called them by name so it was proof they were following them around... but Randy had clearly spoken about one person being that each comment in every thread is placed sequentially. This is how he gets around the "personal attack" rule - by either branding them as a "Leftist" then speaking against Lefists, or by talking about a particular comment without calling them by name.
quote
Originally posted by randye without provocation here:
Like I said: "Most people have the ideological IQ of a tree stump" and nothing illustrates that better than the young "Dub" has here.
It is amusing though to read the gobbeldy-gook, mish-mash of contradictory and irreconcilable political posturing that he attempts to assemble into some vaguely coherent "position" that is anything but "libertarian".
It's what you get when a Leftist tries to "identify as" something else.
Everyone else sees him as just a guy in a dress. He just thinks you won't see him for what he really is if tries hard enough to get you to share his delusion.
^Calling a user (me) out by name after stating "most people have the ideological IQ of a tree stump." Honestly, the colorful language is kind of funny, but come on, it's also clearly against forum rules.
quote
Originally posted by randye without provocation here:
Oh my God!, Are you really that dimwitted?
...
You predictably MADE MY POINT FOR ME by spewing a bucket of textual diarrhea that reads like a mediocre high school student's term paper...
...and, as if that wasn't enough, you drove my point further home by simply linking a few lazy, sophomoric, references to lp.org and Wikipedia !
For crissakes, it barely gets much dumber than that.
...
If THAT isn't the definition of DUMB and GULLIBLE then nothing is.
You're obviously free to believe whatever dumb nonsense you want, even as delusional as what you peddle here, but you're not free to demand that other's participate in your personal delusion and ignorance. or even demand that anyone stop calling it as DUMB as it obviously is.
I didn't have to go very far to find these, and there is plenty more. What's worse, is that most of the forum either applauds it or ignores it.
[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 02-23-2022).]
"A lot of words to tell us that we need to scroll past Randye's posts without reading them. Do we need to scroll past Randye's posts without reading them? . . . This is the easiest job I've ever had."
Actually, it's not all that easy to navigate the forum and always scroll past Randye's messages without accidentally reading one (or part of one) simply because it enters my field of view. I've became more adept at it, with practice. I even have two "hacks" that I use. One, I call an "IAS"—an acronym for Image Activated Scroll. The other is to swivel the angle of my video monitor. Of course that only works because I have a video monitor, and seldom experience the forum using my iPhone. These hacks have proven their usefulness, and are worth the small extra effort.
Feel free to PM me if you want a clearer explanation of these "hacks."
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-23-2022).]
Cliff, first of all... thank-you thank-you for creating the Politics & Religion sub-section. Much appreciated.
I'm so glad that members here who enjoy political "discussion" now have their own little corner to reside in where they can focus on resolving world problems.
May I make one suggestion in regards to O/T (and this may've already been requested)?
It's inevitable that a perfectly fine O/T thread will be "sabotaged" by inappropriate political comments. May I suggest that instead of the entire thread then being banished to the new sub-section, that the offending post simply be deleted from the thread? These inappropriate posts could be reported to you in the usual manner, and it probably wouldn't take much of a gander by you to determine that comments about Nazis, Leftists, Trump, Biden, Trudeau, whomever/whatever don't belong in a thread about composting. Well, maybe they do, but I think you catch my drift. Thanks.
I really, really, really don't like deleting posts. I only very seldomly do and usually because it's actually requested by the poster (and even then, I'll only delete a post if I deem it in the best interest of all parties involved).
I have been thinking about an "upvote/downvote" option (or like/dislike if you prefer to call it that). If a post receives many downvotes, it is minimized in the thread. Meaning you only see one line, with poster's name and a small text "this post is hidden due to downvoting". To read the post, you'd have to click it.
This way, posts will not be deleted and it can actually become visible again when people remove their downvote, or it receives enough upvotes to offset de downvotes.
I hope I am wrong, but I think I can predict how that up/down voting will go. Every member that is of a known minority leaning compared to the majority of this board's political affiliation will have all their posts minimized, regardless of what the content or subject is. Any member that openly is or supports LBGT will have all their posts minimized by downvote,. Any member that questions the majority view on any social aspect will see all their posts minimized. All this, not because of what a post says but because of who it was that posted it. I hope I'm wrong...
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-23-2022).]
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: I really, really, really don't like deleting posts. I only very seldomly do and usually because it's actually requested by the poster (and even then, I'll only delete a post if I deem it in the best interest of all parties involved).
I have been thinking about an "upvote/downvote" option (or like/dislike if you prefer to call it that). If a post receives many downvotes, it is minimized in the thread. Meaning you only see one line, with poster's name and a small text "this post is hidden due to downvoting". To read the post, you'd have to click it.
This way, posts will not be deleted and it can actually become visible again when people remove their downvote, or it receives enough upvotes to offset de downvotes.
I think that would be a step backwards, not forwards. Forum member "maryjane" has just nailed it. So I am not in any way enthused about this idea.
Instead of that, I would prefer an option where I could single out particular forum member(s) and any public message or "post" from, say "rinselberg" for example (although I probably wouldn't do that to myself) would be hidden from me, like that. If they started a thread, that would still show up on my List of Topics page. But the contents of the post itself, if I clicked on that thread--hidden.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-23-2022).]
The upvote/ downvote thing only works if a majority of users agree with each other. If most here are conservative you will not see liberal points because they will get voted out. Imgur is that way. You can’t have a conservative view there because the liberals will downvote you and your responses are hidden. I no longer go there because it’s a leftist echo chamber.
I really, really, really don't like deleting posts.
Cliff, I completely understand. If a post has been made, it needs to stand the test of time, and not be erased on a whim. I think I've deleted a grand total of one of my posts here in 23 years.
However... this may be a situation where deleting a post is the lesser evil, and by far the simplest step for you to take. Excellent points have already been raised that highlight the potential problem of members "voting" other member's posts up or down. IMO it would be a disaster from the start.
If someone is purposely sabotaging a perfectly fine O/T thread, with the sole intent of having it banished to a different section of the forum where many of us don't wish to visit... then why show any mercy? I'm not talking about bringing out the ban hammer (at least initially), I'm just suggesting that deleting the offending post is the simplest most effective way of dealing with members who refuse to follow the no politics in O/T rule.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-23-2022).]
This Forum takes enough of your time without having to 'babysit' for those that cannot self-filter.
Here's a better idea: Get rid of the five or six babies, and let the adults continue to have intelligent conversations. I mean seriously, at least two of them are literally mentally ill, why are we giving them an outlet for their insane ramblings and forcing the rest of us to put up with it?
The new 'Politics and Religion' section is a great idea though, 'Containment Forums' have been mostly successful on other forums.
Cliff, first of all... thank-you thank-you for creating the Politics & Religion sub-section. Much appreciated.
I'm so glad that members here who enjoy political "discussion" now have their own little corner to reside in where they can focus on resolving world problems.
May I make one suggestion in regards to O/T (and this may've already been requested)?
It's inevitable that a perfectly fine O/T thread will be "sabotaged" by inappropriate political comments. May I suggest that instead of the entire thread then being banished to the new sub-section, that the offending post simply be deleted from the thread?These inappropriate posts could be reported to you in the usual manner, and it probably wouldn't take much of a gander by you to determine that comments about Nazis, Leftists, Trump, Biden, Trudeau, whomever/whatever don't belong in a thread about composting. Well, maybe they do, but I think you catch my drift. Thanks.
That type of censorship sounds worse to me than putting threads into the trashcan. IMO
I really, really, really don't like deleting posts. I only very seldomly do and usually because it's actually requested by the poster (and even then, I'll only delete a post if I deem it in the best interest of all parties involved).
I have been thinking about an "upvote/downvote" option (or like/dislike if you prefer to call it that). If a post receives many downvotes, it is minimized in the thread. Meaning you only see one line, with poster's name and a small text "this post is hidden due to downvoting". To read the post, you'd have to click it.
This way, posts will not be deleted and it can actually become visible again when people remove their downvote, or it receives enough upvotes to offset de downvotes.
His would be bad censorship as well, even if it was publicly chosen censorship. IMO People need to stop being offended by words.
The upvote/ downvote thing only works if a majority of users agree with each other. If most here are conservative you will not see liberal points because they will get voted out. Imgur is that way. You can’t have a conservative view there because the liberals will downvote you and your responses are hidden. I no longer go there because it’s a leftist echo chamber.
That type of censorship sounds worse to me than putting threads into the trashcan. IMO
So if members A, B, C, D and E are having a friendly informative discussion about 3D Printing in O/T, and member F comes along and starts spouting nonsense about Nazis, Leftists, whatever... that your "solution" is to Trash Can the whole thread? Wonderful. So member F, along with his like-minded buddies, can now Trash Can any thread in O/T they please? And that's somehow superior to simply removing the political comments that were never welcome, never allowed in the 3D Printing thread in the first place?
There is no reason for any PFF member to feel that they have somehow been stymied in their need to express their political views in this forum. They now have their very own sub-section. Go there, get it out of your system. Let O/T be the welcoming place for diverse discussion that it hasn't been for a very long time.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-24-2022).]
So if members A, B, C, D and E are having a friendly informative discussion about 3D Printing in O/T, and member F comes along and starts spouting nonsense about Nazis, Leftists, whatever... that your "solution" is to Trash Can the whole thread? Wonderful.
Well, your premise is first of all highly unrealistic.
But no. I just said your idea was worse. Mainly I think for me its because it censors one statement, one that people may never know existed. There may not be great solutions. But in any case people who can't play civil, being warned, put on probation, and sometimes banned seems like it is a decent set up to me.
The creation of a politics and religion area is a decent fix as well. Though I don't care for now having to look all over to see things and remember which of topic I'm looking for, or maybe it moved. I do think it may resulyt in Cliff getting more requests to move threads. But a lesser of evils could still be lesser.
The upvote/ downvote thing only works if a majority of users agree with each other. If most here are conservative you will not see liberal points because they will get voted out. Imgur is that way. You can’t have a conservative view there because the liberals will downvote you and your responses are hidden. I no longer go there because it’s a leftist echo chamber.
I understand the concern, but it would take a lot more downvotes than upvotes before a post is hidden. Kinda like the rating system. It would take at least <n> total votes and at least a ratio of <a> : <b> downvotes vs upvotes before a post gets hidden. This needs to get tweaked over time of course.
Well, your premise is first of all highly unrealistic.
Like heck it is. Happens all the time. (Hopefully, not any longer.)
There are members of this forum who appear to only see life through a political filter, and they feel that it's somehow their duty to share their slanted view of the world with everybody else.
I am SO happy they now have their own corner here at PFF to ramble on to their heart's content... and I won't even need to be aware of their endless boring diatribes!
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
I just said your idea was worse. Mainly I think for me its because it censors one statement, one that people may never know existed.
If this deleted "statement" was never meant to exist in O/T in the first place, what's the loss? Posting in the appropriate section would negate any required action.
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
The creation of a politics and religion area is a decent fix as well. Though I don't care for now having to look all over to see things and remember which of topic I'm looking for, or maybe it moved.
"All over"? Seriously, this is going to be a challenge for you... looking in two different sub-sections? Takes what, about one second to click on the tab?
I never realized what a master I've been at utilizing the forum, looking in at least three different sub-sections on a regular basis... Technical, General and O/T. When I feel really energized, I check out the Construction Zone as well.
I am SO happy they now have their own corner here at PFF to ramble on to their heart's content... and I won't even need to be aware of their endless boring diatribes!:
Originally posted by Patrick: I am SO happy they now have their own corner here at PFF to ramble on to their heart's content... and I won't even need to be aware of their endless boring diatribes!:
You dug up a dead 2-1/2 year old thread to post that?
And why shouldn't I visit P&R on occasion if and when I see fit? I don't spend much time there, and when I do, I make sure to shower afterwards.
The creation of P&R has worked out very well. It basically eliminated the problem of unnecessary and unwelcome political commentary from polluting non-political O/T threads. I'd say it was mission accomplished.
Originally posted by Patrick: You dug up a dead 2-1/2 year old thread to post that?
No. I happened to be using "search" and came across it. I had never seen it.
Visit P/R anytime. Next time, shower before visiting, .
quote
Originally posted by Patrick: The creation of P&R has worked out very well. It basically eliminated the problem of unnecessary and unwelcome political commentary from polluting non-political O/T threads. I'd say it was mission accomplished.
Yes, we know some are mentally incapable of not being in a safe space. To the point of not being able to not read posts which kill them (sticks and bones will break my bones but words will never hurt me).
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 10-11-2024).]
Originally posted by Patrick: And why shouldn't I visit P&R on occasion if and when I see fit? I don't spend much time there, and when I do, I make sure to shower afterwards.
The creation of P&R has worked out very well. It basically eliminated the problem of unnecessary and unwelcome political commentary from polluting non-political O/T threads. I'd say it was mission accomplished.
I always appreciate it when you're around, but I think I'm the resident commie when you're not
I don't get complaining about P&R. For one, it's one of the most well self-regulated political discussion areas I've ever been a part of. Folks poke at each other, and we disagree pretty vehemently, but given how divisive things are concerning this election I think we're doing pretty well. At least no one is talking about putting spark plugs in their dog's butt. For two, there are a few of us that really seem to enjoy it, otherwise it's very strange that we keep coming back. I would feel extremely boorish having these conversations in an area where we talk about music and airplanes.
Yes, we know some are mentally incapable of not being in a safe space. To the point of not being able to not read posts which kill them (sticks and bones will break my bones but words will never hurt me).
], but as it's the same thread of conversation, here are some snippets of activity:
.
