Since this discussion has slipped over into tanks and armored warfare doctrine I'll just say for the record that I believe that the Leopard 2, (A5, A6 and A7) are superior to the M1 Abrams in many important respects and every bit it's equal in all others.
I'll also say that the Ukrainians, having blunted and stopped the Russian and Belorussian advances, have already proven that they DO NOT need an influx of tanks for defensive purposes. If anyone doubted the efficacy of anti-armor missiles on the modern battlefield, the Ukrainians have put those doubts to rest.
My view is that their intent is to mount offensive operations, especially in the Donbas and Crimea, to retake (and take) Russian held territory.
Since this discussion has slipped over into tanks and armored warfare doctrine I'll just say for the record that I believe that the Leopard 2, (A5, A6 and A7) are superior to the M1 Abrams in many important respects and every bit it's equal in all others.
I'll also say that the Ukrainians, having blunted and stopped the Russian and Belorussian advances, have already proven that they DO NOT need an influx of tanks for defensive purposes. If anyone doubted the efficacy of anti-armor missiles on the modern battlefield, the Ukrainians have put those doubts to rest.
My view is that their intent is to mount offensive operations, especially in the Donbas and Crimea, to retake (and take) Russian held territory.
Just an old CAV tanker's $0.02 worth....
Not qualified to suggest anything about tanks but, I agree with your opinion on what the Ukrainians have planned to do with those tanks. Now, they are asking for F16s. Personally speaking, I hope the Ukrainians stop at their former borders because it could get real ugly, real fast should they push into Mother Russia.
I won't be surprised to see Putin disappear.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-26-2023).]
Not qualified to suggest anything about tanks but, I agree with your opinion on what the Ukrainians have planned to do with those tanks. Now, they are asking for F16s. Personally speaking, I hope the Ukrainians stop at their former borders because it could get real ugly, real fast should they push into Mother Russia.
I won't be surprised to see Putin disappear.
Rams
That's an interesting thought... wouldn't surprise me. Do you think they might try to even take back Crimea and land beyond what was taken in 2022? Or do you mean even beyond that...
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: That's an interesting thought... wouldn't surprise me. Do you think they might try to even take back Crimea and land beyond what was taken in 2022? Or do you mean even beyond that...
Given the support, I have no doubt Ukraine will try to take back every acre that Putin/Russia now claims. Doing so will require Ukraine to strike logistics centers and bases/roads and bridges within Mother Russia itself but, should restrain from all out invasion in that would cause a retaliation of much greater consequences. None of us want those greater consequences...........
Given the support, I have no doubt Ukraine will try to take back every acre that Putin/Russia now claims. Doing so will require Ukraine to strike logistics centers and bases/roads and bridges within Mother Russia itself but, should restrain from all out invasion in that would cause a retaliation of much greater consequences. None of us want those greater consequences...........
Rams
To be clear, I want Russia to lose. I have to make that clear or people will make assumptions.
But if I was Russia, I'd be pretty pissed at this point... and probably would have escalated it to the point where I'd probably be striking U.S. assets and threatening nuclear war more seriously.
But of course... if I was Putin, I'd never have joined the KGB, probably would have fled to the United States, and if I didn't... I'd denounce communism and open free trade to the world, etc... but that's just me.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: To be clear, I want Russia to lose. I have to make that clear or people will make assumptions.
But if I was Russia, I'd be pretty pissed at this point... and probably would have escalated it to the point where I'd probably be striking U.S. assets and threatening nuclear war more seriously.
But of course... if I was Putin, I'd never have joined the KGB, probably would have fled to the United States, and if I didn't... I'd denounce communism and open free trade to the world, etc... but that's just me.
Russia WONT loose. Pride wont let them.
If they do loose on the battlefield, it's launch time.
Ron, I get it, you don't like Joe Biden... but that comment is disrespectful and dismissive of Canada's desire to assist Ukraine.
Sir, I can see how you would take it that way but, my comment is based on how the Canadian Government has addressed its military needs versus their agreed to NATO membership requirements. And the known way that Biden does things. Again, working off the provided article and a bit of research, Canada hasn't spent anywhere near the 2% GDP it agreed to spend. Also, it's not a matter of liking President Biden, I don't like former President Trump but, DJT at least earned my respect for the policies he put in place. The only thing President Biden has done is give away money and invite aliens to cross the border. Which is why I suspect that in some way, the US is paying for those donated weapons.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-28-2023).]
Canada hasn't spent anywhere near the 2% GDP it agreed to spend.
And neither have 19 other NATO countries, out of a total of 30.
It might also be worthwhile to mention that of the 30 countries, Canada is 6th highest in regards to NATO defense expenditures.
So maybe you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what Canada contributes to the alliance. Especially considering our population size, we're doing alright.
An excellent point. All I can say is, the article that started this thread only addressed Canada and its military expenditures and you just happen to be from Canada.
Well, that's a bit condemning but, there's always two sides to every story.
Surely there's a counter to this?
Rams
Yes, they're also sending a dozen donuts along with every old 3rd hand, used up, obsolete tank.
They were obsolete when the Canuks bought them used from the Dutch back in 2003. The Canuks never seriously upgraded and never maintained them like they were supposed to. They're basically so bad and old now that they're not even usable for reserve forces training.
A short platoon of them is useless.
Lets hope that at least the donuts are fresher.....
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-27-2023).]
CNR Railway Crossroads Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow Iroquois Engine. Malton, Victory Aircraft. So, yeah, we could do it all over again. Might have to, because of that imbecile, you know, you know, the chronic liar, plagiarist, and a demented drooler. .. ' May you live in interesting times.' ~ Confucious ' There are times of great danger and certain war, but they are also the most creative of times in the history of conflict. ' Doh !
Wouldah, couldah, shouldah. Why, if it wasn't for the deceptive advice the Chief had whispered in his ear, we would still be selling Avro Arrows all across the world. Those sneaky Russian bastages. They were commies then, like the Chinese are today, still. ' Rule the world, your masters, because communism is stronger than you ! ' Yep, gonna have to get all nasty, all over again. Say, nuke'em if they invade Taiwan, for openers. Yep, that would get the attention of the survivors in Bejing. 1.2 Billion pla surrender their weapons, because star war lasers zap'em from space. Bzzzt.. ffftt ! In the future, they keep trying.
