I only really have experience with motorcycles/ebikes. Driven a few cars but never owned one.
Long trips, forget it. You want a hybrid. At least a trailer with a gas genny. Even with the "best' batteries (liFePo4) your going to be lucky to get 100km unassisted (motorcycle-throttle-only mode). I stick with SLA for both cost and safety/insurance reasons and best I can get is around 50km range. Unless i want a few hundred pounds of car batteries, then the weight becomes an issue affecting the range so there isnt that much gain.
Power/torque/speed. Keeps right up with the gassers with the same general rules. Keep adding more money go fast parts.
Cost-wise they are the same or more up front. Then depending on what classification you "follow" you can ditch the insurance and see your savings there. Otherwise they are more expensive all around than gas.
BTW, Yamaha has now gotten into the game. Seems about the same as all the rest.
One thing I have been S-L-O-W-L-Y playing with is a range extender trailer. an alternator or 3 driven at 10:1 speed increase off the wheels (useable rpm) will put out about 1200w each. To be legal here the motor has to be under 500w, so in theory (yeh, I know, theory--there are friction/drag ect losses) once at regular speed the motor SHOULD (yeh, should ) run off the alternators, leaving the batteries in reserve for low-speed stuff. Or at least extending the range.
Trailer because I am up against a 120kg legal weight limit on the bikes themselves, but trailer dont count towards that.
Charging-wise, with new/GOOD batteries figure on 4-6 hours. So take it to work, plug it in, and you are fine to go home. Some of the newer Li batteries will do it faster, depending on the charger and BMS board, but I plain old dont like those batteries because...well...I try to avoid this happening between my legs..
All-in-all, they are pricey short-range transportation that works well in "15-minute-cities" or small towns and thats about it. Buddy of mine just got himself a (used) 750 Shadow American Classic. 4 grand. A comparable electric is going to be at least 10 (used, 25k new) plus a couple-3 G's minimum every few years for battery replacement.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 04-15-2023).]
NO ev for me and I don't know of any charging stations except the ones over at the Fort Hood gas station. I DO have a 56v battery power/self propelled lawnmower and tho it cuts very well, the run time on it (especially in self propelled mode) is no where near the 50 minutes it is advertised at. On the hillside on E part of my yard, in self propelled mode, I am lucky to get 35 minutes run, then 45 minutes on the charger.
Haven't had any interest in the EVs....Range is really limited; If I was still working they would be a great commute vehicle.
I am a boater- always have been- and boats seem to be the one vehicle that really can-NOT go electric....no range at all.
Hate-hate-HATE the extreme weights of electric vehicles....the new Vette is heavy at 3700 lbs- but the "E-Ray" version is 4000! We should have had a moon-shot type of investment in battery developement...We could probably have twice the range and half the weight if we had done it right.
⚠️ You get fanboys of Tesla et al that "Love" them and try to squash real facts owning or leasing them.
Whether EV to lowest E-bike or toy w/ rechargeable battery... Battery runs "empty"/0 charge then must Wait a long time to change including "Fast Charge" just to reach 80% takes longer. vs. ICE runs "empty" then fill to 100% in 10-15 Minutes for most cars. (Larger trucks can have big tanks and/or 2 or more tanks that take a bit longer to fill up. Example: I had Ford E350 Van w/ Dual tanks so have see how long it takes to fill up w/ 1 station pump nozzle. so? still well under 30 minute.) "empty" here because you Never want Total Empty or risk of cooking the Electric F-pump because needs fuel as coolant and lube. IOW like most pumps that hate running dry and does damage every time even if doesn't Die right then.
As much as people whine Fiero has a small tank... (Actually same size as many other GM models and even other brands.) Getting gas is almost nothing time to add to a long trip. You waist more time just going to bathroom and getting food.
Even on "Fastest Charge" you waist a lot of time. When you use real restaurant and sit a hour + eating the changing often isn't done. Now because part charge to whatever %, you have to recharge again and sooner too and waist more time.
Another Fact... Many that Love their EV's often have "Home" charging that can leave it connected overnight.... But Vast majority of EV buyers rent where they live or otherwise can't have home chargers like most in "old city" Philly.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Originally posted by theogre: Another Fact... Many that Love their EV's often have "Home" charging that can leave it connected overnight.... But Vast majority of EV buyers rent where they live or otherwise can't have home chargers like most in "old city" Philly.
Good point.
Kim is in love with these and wants one (cute little thing in a cartoonish-Fiat-500 sort of way) . Cant have it. There is no charging facilities in the parking lot, and to get to my patio door is across about 100 yards of grass. Condo management wont allow a "car" over the grass. I get away with it because legally my toys are <cough, cough > "legal" e-bikes and hence considered riding a bike. But if I went out and got one of the ones built on a Ninja frame I wouldnt have charging facilities either because then it's a "motorcycle" I cant ride on the grass. Pure legalease stupidity, but the situation exists everywhere.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 04-16-2023).]
Originally posted by cvxjet: We should have had a moon-shot type of investment in battery developement...We could probably have twice the range and half the weight if we had done it right.
Nope. No matter how much money they barf Tax $ on EV "Development," the All Batteries must follow physics and chemical "laws."
US Gov and others have already dumped Hundreds of Millions to Billions of you tax $ for many battery methods and EV scams to "save the world" that do nothing to reduce pollution or help slaves mining lithium cobalt and other "Rare Earth" metals.
"From supercapacitor cells to energy storage systems"
quote
Our patented Curved Graphene carbon material provides our supercapacitors with superior power and energy density in the supercapacitor industry, and this advantage carries over to our supercapacitor modules and systems.
We make our own Curved Graphene carbon raw material, and produce our supercapacitor cells, modules, and systems to strict quality standards, servicing our customers in automotive, transportation, grid and renewables, and industry.
German quality from the global technology leader in high-power energy storage.
Originally posted by rinselberg: Maybe the "answer" is Curved Graphene.
"From supercapacitor cells to energy storage systems"
Caps including "super" and "ultra" capacitors are not batteries. Can work together but not replace 1 w/ other.
Some semi and other big trucks have both to start the engine easier. Super/Ultra caps help battery by taking starter motor inrush current that is often 2 to several times the current to run a starter or other motors. Your car starter pulls 120 to 150 amp but when you first turn the I-key, starter pulls 200 to 300+ amps for that first few microseconds. Decades past to current Big trunks often have Huge batteries and starter may get 24v too partly to handle the huge inrush current. Now Some use the caps in parallel to cut some battery weight.
Some regen braking may use caps too because charges way faster then the batteries. Then dump the power to the motor(s) when that accelerates again.
Even for Grid power to a factory etc. Super caps can "eat" short demand spikes faster then any battery. (Many Commercial buildings have "normal" caps for decades to that help power in other ways.)
I've never owned or even driven an EV, but a friend who works at my old company has a Volvo S8 Hybrid. He lives about 10 miles from the office and, if he keeps his foot out if it, can drive all the way to work completely on battery. We had charging stations at the office, so I'm sure he plugs in when he gets there. He said that his electric bill didn't go up terribly. I forget what the figures were, though.
At this point in time, I'm convinced that hybrids are the way to go, if you've got to go at all.
I like EVs. I would never own one because I would miss the sound of the engine and I don't think EVs are future proof, but other than that they are fun.
A (fully charged) Tesla accelerates from 0-60mph in 3.3s. It has a range of well over 350 miles and it can charge to 160 miles in 30 minutes or so. Which is why I don't think EVs are future proof unless they invent some kind of fast-swapping system for the battery. You know, you go to a "gas" station, drive up to some kind of robot-thingy that will automatically swap your empty battery for a full one in a few minutes.
Anyways, the most fun thing about Tesla is it's Full (autonomous) Self Driving. I've been watching many videos on YouTube and I'm very impressed with what it's already capable of.
Originally posted by Raydar: I've never owned or even driven an EV, but a friend who works at my old company has a Volvo S8 Hybrid. He lives about 10 miles from the office and, if he keeps his foot out if it, can drive all the way to work completely on battery. We had charging stations at the office, so I'm sure he plugs in when he gets there. He said that his electric bill didn't go up terribly. I forget what the figures were, though.
At this point in time, I'm convinced that hybrids are the way to go, if you've got to go at all.
Hybrid Charging is an Option for many models but not all. Nice when have power to charge but have same problem as Full EV posted above. Best thing is Doesn't need to charge to drive but using Gas or Diesel when battery is "flat" have problems... like low power to merge on a highway and empty the small tank fast for 2 examples. Is why a lot of people bought Hybrids and drive long distance often hate them. EPA had to change the rules for MPG etc for Hybrids because old rules made EPA fuel use listing a joke. Even Worse then ICE vehicles that rarely = EPA numbers to real world use before and after they change the rules for them too. After is closer real world but still not = for most people.
Note that many claim is cheap to charge vs buying gas...
They Ignore Gas and Diesel carries Road and other Taxes and Often the Taxes are = or more $ then the Base Fuel price. Is only a matter of time when states and feds see Taxes Drop because don't sell enough Fuel that EV and any others have Car Taxes attach to them. Future Methods have been planned or already tested in some states like: Making Tesla et al Reporting Miles to State/Feds for Taxes. OBD2 Dongles to "Phone Home" to the state for Tax per Mile.
Proof? Example: PA and NJ raise Fuel Taxes because Covid Lockdown and no-one buying Fuel. They will charge EV etc as Fuel Sales drops. PA or NJ Dropped Fuel Taxes some this quarter/year because no lockdown and buying more fuel. (E2A--> Both have some Fuel Taxes that have "Quotas" that must meet X$ per Year and Fuel Taxes now "Float" vs Gallons Sold per Quarter/Years previous or future guessing. IE Doesn't require to go to state house etc or tied to state bunged to change the tax.)
EU and other countries have VAT on Fuel too. VAT ~ = to US Sales Tax that are % over base price. In many countries 2x or More "$" for fix taxes and VAT over base fuel price. No way you going to have a lot of EV etc Not Paying Same Taxes as ICE for very long.
Another Fact: Getting Electric in some places is getting Harder and/or more Expensive. That even ignoring long backouts for storms. Worse, some EV and chargers have "2 way" connections allowing a utility to stop charging or to suck power out of an EV at their whim claiming BS and you left w/ some % charge only. FU if you need a full charge or even % above they let you charge to drive to work the next day...
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-18-2023).]
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Anyways, the most fun thing about Tesla is it's Full (autonomous) Self Driving. I've been watching many videos on YouTube and I'm very impressed with what it's already capable of.
I wonder about situations about highway entrance ramps. On Long Island, there are some seriously bad setups. exits and entrance ramps that were not designed for people entering a road with people going 80mph+ in the right lane (WTF!) I think some people 'get off' on messing with people.
Do automated cars use turn signals? (I assume they do)
Also, if it realizes it can't "make an exit" because human drivers won't let them exit, will it just go to the next exit and then continue?
I have seen some EVs that looked exactly like a "regular" vehicle. but some of them feel so cheaply made, like I feel like I will break them, the door handles, especially... its like 'terribly fragile'. yuck
Depends on a number of factors, especially which one you get. Two important factors to remember with all EV's in 2023:
-If you don't have a home EV charger (like if you live in an apartment outside of California), forget it. You'll spend HOURS a week trying to charge it. Public chargers are crap.
-If you want to use it for long trips, forget it. Especially on holidays visiting relatives, the public chargers are PACKED, and about a third of public chargers I've been to were broken, even when apps listed them as functional.
if you want to use it for short trips and shorter commutes, it works great, unless you buy a non-Tesla or older Tesla in a cold climate that doesn't have a proper battery heating/cooling system, like the Leaf that is passively air cooled.
If you live in suburbia and have a charger in your garage, and a half hour commute, it works great. Especially if you have a gas car for a backup.
I personally still think the range solution lies in some sort of on-the-fly generating capability. Daymak has done it with a couple of scooters and micro-cars via solar, but it's not really on-the-fly. It's just a charger-free charging system that under *normal* use means you never have to plug in.
*Normal apparently means short trips with long parked periods between them.
Originally posted by TheDigitalAlchemist: On Long Island, there are some seriously bad setups. exits and entrance ramps that were not designed for people entering a road with people going 80mph+ in the right lane (WTF!) I think some people 'get off' on messing with people.
Yea... Section between Queens Miltown Tunnel to JFK airport is so great for that. And when not if there's even a minor wreck can backup the road and tunnel for Hours.
That section can't handle people driving at posted speed limit let alone most ignores that.
I wonder about situations about highway entrance ramps. On Long Island, there are some seriously bad setups. exits and entrance ramps that were not designed for people entering a road with people going 80mph+ in the right lane (WTF!) I think some people 'get off' on messing with people.
Do automated cars use turn signals? (I assume they do)
Also, if it realizes it can't "make an exit" because human drivers won't let them exit, will it just go to the next exit and then continue?
I have seen some EVs that looked exactly like a "regular" vehicle. but some of them feel so cheaply made, like I feel like I will break them, the door handles, especially... its like 'terribly fragile'. yuck
There is another issue I saw on youtube today. A self driving car was in traffic and an officer was trying to direct traffic around something, but the car just kept trying to push forward like it was confused. The (obviously smarter than me) people in the car just kept yelling through the window that it was a self driving car, and they couldn't do anything. I guess opening a door, or taking off the seatbelts would have stopped it at least. 🙄 I bet that that was some button to stop the car in an emergency as well.
Two things; A) The self-driving cars need to have their tech advanced much more before they are really "Ready"....Recognizing an emergency situation (Cops/wreck/flooding/debris/etc) needs to be fully addressed. There was a tesla that crashed into a guardrail where 92 comes off of southbound 880- the lane markings somehow confused the car which was in self-driving mode at the time.
B) I actually think most cars should be self-driving for one (Obvious) reason; 75% of people out there should not be trusted with riding a bike, let alone driving a car......(Idiots!)
B) I actually think most cars should be self-driving for one (Obvious) reason; 75% of people out there should not be trusted with riding a bike, let alone driving a car......(Idiots!)
We just need to get rid of helmet and seat-belt laws, and ditch the airbags.
The problem will sort itself out in time.
(Either that or outlaw automatic trannys and chokes. 80% of the population is going nowhere)
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 04-19-2023).]
I'm not about to cut up anything expensive, but I've noticed a LOT of mobility scooters on Facebook marketplace for $300-$500 the past week or 2. Springtime so I guess everybody old is getting new ones.
I might just grab one and take a crack at a 50's-style micro-car. 1800w motor or 2 can be made to fit instead of the 350 (WEEEEEE, them wheelie bars gonna get a workout ;-) ), get rid of the office chair and put a cruiser bike seat on it to make some room, then a cage/frame for EMT conduit with sheet metal riveted on. Cut out the wheel wells and put something decent sized (16 inch or so) on. 16" wheel is 21 RPM per MPH.
Pretty much getting into racing kart territory with that set-up speed-wise
Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: I'm not about to cut up anything expensive, but I've noticed a LOT of mobility scooters on Facebook marketplace for $300-$500 the past week or 2. Springtime so I guess everybody old is getting new ones.
Many get new ones or owner dies then try to sell them. Used ones often dead batteries or nearly dead and can't charge right. Example: A friend had dying lead batteries and cost to get replacements thru a dealer cost way Way too much vs Insurance and co-pay buy new one and now many have Lithium types that should last longer.
If the thing works and look ok or better... Most owners and people around them won't go to local battery store and use "generic" batteries even if doesn't major work. Even Generic batteries cost a lot but not like dealer and maker of scooter prices. (1 small generic lead battery common for APC and other PC UPS is 30-50$ each. Some UPS use 2 or more.) Many try to buy online but shipping cost is a lot because is heavy plus often HAZMAT charge too.
Plus can't put lead or large amounts of other batteries in the trash in many places causing more headaches. I took ~ 100# of small lead battery to scrap but hardly worth bothering unless have copper or Al to scrap too. And that's w/ scrap yard only a few miles a away from me.
I like the UB12220's from Amazon. Pretty much $75 (CDN) each, 22aH, hair under 10 pounds. Sealed so mounting position dont matter and lead-acid so simple and safe to play with. Only thing is they are a little bulky.
Thing with these EV's, its not the tech or machines that are lacking. From golf carts to scooters to motorcycles to microcars it ALL already exists for city use and has for 100+ years. (Excluding highway trips). It's the political/legal will to let them be used. Right now sure I can jump in a golf cart and go to walmart....then I get a 25k fine and/or 6 months in a crappy motel for doing it.
Government isnt interested in allowing alternative transportation, they are catering to the green panic industry for the money while paying lip service to it.
Electric or gas (5hp ?) it's still a neat way to get to work or pick up a pizza. But there is no money in that for them.
Electric might be fun to play with as a hobby, but really if you got 10k burning a hole in your pocket, are you going to go buy a little puddle-jumper with very limited capability, or something more traditional with a LOT more capability ?
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 04-19-2023).]
Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: Thing with these EV's, its not the tech or machines that are lacking. From golf carts to scooters to motorcycles to microcars it ALL already exists for city use and has for 100+ years. (Excluding highway trips). It's the political/legal will to let them be used. Right now sure I can jump in a golf cart and go to walmart....then I get a 25k fine and/or 6 months in a crappy motel for doing it.
In the US... For city driving, many people or companies do use "Golf Carts" on the street. Because There are street legal units that get Tagged and Insured same as other motor vehicles. Hotel I visit last month had a big one as a "bus" to take people to the beach that is Tagged and all seats had belts.
Some Tagged med scooters etc to use the street and shoulders too. Common in areas w/o sidewalks.
A lot of E-bikes need to meet rules and Tagged as Mopeds. Example: In many places... Any e-motor 750w, ICE ~ 55cc, or higher and max speed under 35mph can be Mopeds and Driver w/ normal License. Minors can't drive Mopeds Max speed over 35mph has to meet rules and Tagged as full Motorcycles and Driver w/ MC License.
In many areas including NY State, Farm equipment must be tagged too. Often depend the distance you drive on roads between A B and likely other places stay need a tag or not. Most owners and cops ignore this until have a wreck.
Everyone owning a vehicle today will be driving an EV within 20-years guaranteed. 80% adoption within 10-years.
EVs are just far superior in every way. The automakers know this, that is why they are pot committed to going full EV production and completely phasing out ICE, and most manufacturers are going 100% EVs within 2-5 years, the rest will follow by 2030.
You can laugh or ***** all you want. But you asked people in 2000 that everyone would be online and have a cell phone, including grandma, they would think you were crazy. Well?
Some Tagged med scooters etc to use the street and shoulders too. Common in areas w/o sidewalks.
A lot of E-bikes need to meet rules and Tagged as Mopeds. Example: In many places... Any e-motor 750w, ICE ~ 55cc, or higher and max speed under 35mph can be Mopeds and Driver w/ normal License. Minors can't drive Mopeds Max speed over 35mph has to meet rules and Tagged as full Motorcycles and Driver w/ MC License.
In many areas including NY State, Farm equipment must be tagged too. Often depend the distance you drive on roads between A B and likely other places stay need a tag or not. Most owners and cops ignore this until have a wreck.
Here you are flat out unable to get tags and/or insurance for most of them. That article I posted above about the "motorcycle/scooter"...sure you will get busted for uninsured/unlicensed motorcycle on it, but at the same time insurance or tags for it simply dont exist. Gas bike conversions (mopeds) are the same thing. I built one last year and went through the crap. USED to be (until Nov last year) there was a federal loophole on them but that is now gone. Tractors, powered wheelchairs (yup) ect. Same thing. As is a TaTa or any of the kazillion Chinese mini-micro cars and truck and bikes.
What you can legally use on the roads IS pretty much limited to those things the government and insurance industry has been paid off on by the manufacturers.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 04-20-2023).]
I'm not an EV owner. But I don't want to make this about me. I want to make available, for your (possible) consideration, something that just came out on YouTube from the one, the only, the (drum roll, please) Electric Viking..!
Here you are flat out unable to get tags and/or insurance for most of them. That article I posted above about the "motorcycle/scooter"...sure you will get busted for uninsured/unlicensed motorcycle on it, but at the same time insurance or tags for it simply dont exist. Gas bike conversions (mopeds) are the same thing. I built one last year and went through the crap. USED to be (until Nov last year) there was a federal loophole on them but that is now gone. Tractors, powered wheelchairs (yup) ect. Same thing. As is a TaTa or any of the kazillion Chinese mini-micro cars and truck and bikes.
What you can legally use on the roads IS pretty much limited to those things the government and insurance industry has been paid off on by the manufacturers.
Notice what he said about street conversions, all you have to do is comply with DOT rules to ensure your not a danger to anyone else on the road... Headlights, blinkers, bumpers, seat belts, etc. Most states let you convert off-road to on-road with a few modifications and a licensed inspection. Lots of side-by-sides over here are converted to be legal to drive on the street. Which state are you from? just curious.
Even if (hypothetically) you can convert an off-road to on-road "street legal", good LUCK finding a company to insure it. And without insurance (25k fine) you arent getting annual tags here.
Most guys who do conversion/home-builds that fall into "motor vehicle" category start with something that was once registered street-legal (old M/C frame, car frame, whatever) and use that VIN. It would register and be plated as a "1962 Whatever Junkpile". THEN you can go through custom wheels insurance, live with a 5,000km annual mileage limit and use it freely on the roads. Same as a rebody and electric motor conversion on a Fiero is still registered, plated and insured as a Fiero. That's the electric cars.
For motorcycles, most of us are either staying within the 500w legal limit (and other junk like keeping functional peddles and 120kg weight limit) or getting 500w stickers from AliExpress and re-stickering more powerful stuff with (or without) a hidden "turbo" button to get at the extra power (or second "off-road-use-only" motor). Whatever ya do with those, there is still a 32kph speed limit on them and you cant re-sticker a radar gun and staying sort-on in the ebike catagory. More than that, start building on a once-plated motorcycle frame and jump through all the same hoops.
Sides-by-sides, converted lawn tractors, karts, ect are a flat "no" (not that it isnt done) but some counties do allow quads, so long as they are plated and insured as motorcycles.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 04-21-2023).]
I loved my leaf, we got rid of it because our commutes changed. It's amazing how much nonsense people write about them because they don't understand the use case and have never had one.
If you're buying an EV planning to charge it at charging stations, you shouldn't be buying one.
If your planning on committing with more than 50% of your range daily, you shouldn't buy one.
If you live above the rust belt, you shouldn't buy one.
If you have a daily commute that you're using for and your charging at home, you will save a ton of money and it'll be fun car. They're always much quieter and packed with options because they need to represent the market well.
Even the model 3s now make more sense than something like a Toyota Camry, monthly cost of ownership is less if you're just using it as a commuter, especially in states where the tax incentives can make it cheaper then a camera to purchase.
You should really view electric cars like ovens. Most people are going to buy an actual traditional oven and keep it around. But you also want a microwave, EVS are basically microwaves. They aren't good for everything, they have their problems, but making a regular TV dinner it's just fast and easy and stress-free in a microwave. Your commute is a TV dinner. If you really want to enjoy cooking and make better food you use your regular oven. Your traditional gasoline car is your regular oven. If you have a microwave that you use regularly, your oven could potentially go completely on used, but you do have it if you need it/want to take it for a spin.
Cold weather is a big issue for EVs, there's lots of ways to combat it, Tesla manage ita very well and if you were to try and live with one in a much colder State you definitely want to have much much more range than you plan on commuting with.
) run off the alternators, leaving the batteries in reserve for low-speed stuff. Or at least extending the range.
> "legal" e-bikes and hence considered riding a bike. But if I went out and got one of the ones built on a Ninja frame I wouldnt have charging facilities either because then it's a "motorcycle" I cant ride on the grass. Pure legalease stupidity, but the situation exists everywhere.
for doing it.
