Originally posted by 88Fiero2M4:Man o man most of you read one or two things I said and ran with it. Go back and read the entire message then make your comment.
Re-read my first post, I addressed everything you said.
quote
Originally posted by 88Fiero2M4:
This entire Community is a Joke, Good by I can make it on my own. I never needed any of you, I have never asked for any help. I dont need your help. I guess my friends are right. How About instead of buying Fieros. Just get a real car. I will take that money for a Fiero GT and go to Klodi and get a 96 Camero SS and get it over with. BTW my Fieros are not for sale at any price I will turn them into trailers to pull behind my Camero when I get it
No, your knowledge of engines is a joke. This forum is probably one of the greatest things to happen to the Fiero and it's owners since it was released. Maybe it would be better for you to get a Camero, I hear the V6 models put out 400HP with a cam and lifter change! And could you, please oh please, enlighten us as to how you plan to make a Fiero into a TRAILER!. Good luck with that one!
Now that I have that Cleared up, All I have to say is 84 Indy Pace car..... The real one
This was done with a Super Duty 4, commonly called the SD4. It was a special race only block, heads and parts specifically for "off road use" Pontiac in the mid 80's had the SD4 engines being used in IMSA Fiero race cars, Power boat racing, and even today are still being used in the ARCA class racing. The stock production is in no way near the strength and flow of the SD4 engines. If you really want to know about the differences from your 2.5L and an SD4, Here is a good website to look at:
Originally posted by 88Fiero2M4: This entire Community is a Joke, Good by I can make it on my own. I never needed any of you, I have never asked for any help. I dont need your help.
Looks like someone is asking how the rating system works.
Well if you get a Camaro then I guess your cousin will build you a 1300hp 350 for it. Just have him remove the catalytic converter and make the entire exhaust out of 5" diameter pipes.That should get you to 1200hp, Don't for get to add the "Type R" sticker for the extra 100hp to get the 1300hp.
Originally posted by Oreif: Well if you get a Camaro then I guess your cousin will build you a 1300hp 350 for it. Just have him remove the catalytic converter and make the entire exhaust out of 5" diameter pipes.That should get you to 1200hp, Don't for get to add the "Type R" sticker for the extra 100hp to get the 1300hp.
well i happen to live in ft collins colorado. what shop does your who ever work run? i'll race your duke if your ever in northern colorado under one condition. i get to film it. and post it on the forum.
Welcome to the Forum Ionstorm666! Did anyone notice that the gentleman that started this thread never posted a second time? I think a relatively new member deserves more than what we see here. So, to answer the original question I offer the following:
I purchased a showroom fresh SE in 1984. A real "first model year" automobile! The dealer got real tired of doing warranty work on my car. This car spent most of its time running between Myrtle Beach and Philadelphia on I95 at speeds in excess of 100 MPH. (Radar Detector engaged of coarse.) Hell! I was 30 years old and indestructible! But the car was brand new, and I was "in a hurry".
The car threw a rod at 60,000 miles. Dooohhh! I think that speaks volumes about the 2.5 internals.
Five years ago, I bought a 1986 coupe for reasons I can only call NOSTALGIC. That was followed by the purchase of another coupe a short time later, an '84. When placed side by side the 84 was quicker, but the 86 was smoother.
Well, the '86 broke a piston ring awhile back, and I'm now ready to do the V8 thing. Many obvious reasons.
In short. The Duke with the CAT and A/C removed sounds a little better, pulls just a little harder and gets great gas mileage. On a real twisty road with the right "moves" the little car with the Duke is alot of fun. But if you're looking for straight line HP, do an engine swap.
If you must keep the Duke, just do the cheapest things to help it breath. Holley throttle body, headers, porting, and free flow exhaust. You'll have a real "sports" car. A bit underpowered, but FUN. I say this because I used to restore and autocross english sports cars. Not real fast, but great in anything except a straight line.
Sorry so long, but all of us old farts think we are "entitled".
In short. The Duke with the CAT and A/C removed sounds a little better, pulls just a little harder and gets great gas mileage. On a real twisty road with the right "moves" the little car with the Duke is alot of fun. But if you're looking for straight line HP, do an engine swap.
If you must keep the Duke, just do the cheapest things to help it breath. Holley throttle body, headers, porting, and free flow exhaust. You'll have a real "sports" car. A bit underpowered, but FUN. I say this because I used to restore and autocross english sports cars. Not real fast, but great in anything except a straight line.
Sorry so long, but all of us old farts think we are "entitled".
Have fun!!
Mike
My feelings, exactly. I plan to enjoy the benefits of the Duke -- better handling -- until the time comes for the V8 ...or I find a very light engine with lots of hp/torque.
With a heavier engine, I am sure I would have a hard time NOT wrapping it around my neck in some of the turns and curves I love to force the car into after it rains.
Beno
[This message has been edited by Jdlog (edited 01-16-2004).]
I did some work a couple years ago on a duke for a lambo conversion. Personally I think you'd be better off swapping to a Quad 4 or an ecotec if you love 4 cylinders.
If you simply have to try to get some performance out of a duke, pick up a spare head from a junkyard. Read all you can about head porting and buy a porting kit. Normally I don't recommend that novices port heads. The 2.5 ports are so restrictive that any material removed will really help. Practice on one port and drop by a machine/racing shop to see if they can give you any pointers. You may go through several heads this way if you screw one up, but duke parts should be nearly free from junkyards. While the head is off, try decking it to increase compression. Pay someone to do a good 3 angle valve job.
After making a head that will breathe easier, other upgrades will help make even more power. You get the most gains from upgrading the most restrictive part of the engine, I'd bet that a stock duke doesn't get hardly anything from a K&N because the head has ports the size of drinking straws.
The next items on my list after a head woul be in no real order : cam, intake, exhaust.
Or you could just spray a 50hp shot of nitrous on a stock 2.5 until it blows up. (It shouldn't take very long)
That would probably bring you to what, about 130HP? Anyone?
Also, I think I heard somewhere removing the cat would give you more horespower, but lower torque (or something)
befarrer, any pics?
Here is his head. I dont have anything else, and now the head is on the block.
My dad did the head on my car, and with a 120000Mile bottom end and rings, it gets roughly 100HP, I also have no cat on the stock exhaust. I still have the stock coil too.
I believe the Duke is not a HP engine, but it gets pretty good torque for a 4 cylinder, at low RPM too. Give me torque instead of HP.
Anyone know how GM squeezed out 110hp out of their 89-93 dukes? I heard it was through the use of redesigned ports and something about going to a timing chain. I understand how redesigning the ports would help, but not how the chain would as compared to the fiber gears, perhaps it was done for reliability.
I asked this question a while back when I had a 4cylinder fiero. ;/ It's possible to go 200hp on a duke. I asked Loyde fastfieros he stated on his site he use to build 2.5 engines that made 210HP and turned 7600RPM. http://fastfieros.com/enginesavailable/enginesforsale.htm its at the bottom.
Originally posted by 88Fiero2M4: Shaun Hammitt no I am not a F$*%tard, But since you wish to send such foul email to me about my ideas fine, I am not stupid...
Some of your ideas about the 2.5 are a little off the wall or misinformed though.
Don't listen to Shaun. The kid is an ignorant loud mouth who got banned...and will again if he opens his pie hole one more time!
As for building up the Duke, here the the tall and short of it. The stock Duke has a small weak crank. This is it's achillies heel. Yes, you can get 200hp out of it but the price is that the engine will last exactly 10 seconds. That is why the Super Duty motor was built to begin with. for all the short comings of the stock Duke, the Super Duty is simply WORLD CLASS! It is as old as the hills and yet it is STILL the quintesential 4-banger on the racing circuit.
check-out my Indy resto thread ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/024239.html ) for a list of parts I used to build-up my stock Duke, It cost about $2000 for 126hp...not a great cost for perfromance trade-off but then again I was more interested in keeing the stock look than building a race car. I just wanted it to be able to keep up with the V-6s, and it does. If you want more power a swap is thebest alternative and some good ones have already been mentioned on this thread.
back when i was younger when fiero's were a bit more common a freind of my dad's had 2 turbos' and a supercharger on his duke, it sounded like a mac truck lol
Basically everything he said I agree with. I good way to find out what works to make more HP out of any engine is by way of it being tried before. If it was so simple to push 200 + hp on a duke why aren't there many out there being driven by the people on this very forum? Maybe his(88Fiero2m4) friends have some great ways of getting cheap hp, but not like they way he posted.
------------------ '87GT Fully modded, 3" Drop on 17's, 3800 turbo on the way.... '92 LeBaron soft top, The Players car. :)
A 6inch fartbomb and a fast and furious sticker across the window will give you 300hp alone. And if ya spring for a carbon fiber double decker wing that will add 100more hp
Don't listen to Shaun. The kid is an ignorant loud mouth who got banned...and will again if he opens his pie hole one more time!
As for building up the Duke, here the the tall and short of it. The stock Duke has a small weak crank. This is it's achillies heel. Yes, you can get 200hp out of it but the price is that the engine will last exactly 10 seconds. That is why the Super Duty motor was built to begin with. for all the short comings of the stock Duke, the Super Duty is simply WORLD CLASS! It is as old as the hills and yet it is STILL the quintesential 4-banger on the racing circuit.
check-out my Indy resto thread ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/024239.html ) for a list of parts I used to build-up my stock Duke, It cost about $2000 for 126hp...not a great cost for perfromance trade-off but then again I was more interested in keeing the stock look than building a race car. I just wanted it to be able to keep up with the V-6s, and it does. If you want more power a swap is thebest alternative and some good ones have already been mentioned on this thread.
Lookie here..it's Toddster , the man with the delusion that this is ""Toddsters Fiero forum" Don't disagree with him , he will cry to Cliff. It's funny Toddster , you claim a 152 IQ , yet simple humour that a 5yr old could comprehend you baffles you to no end... can you figure this out?
The Super Duty is world class?? have you looked at a calendar latley there Chump?? it's 2004 , not 1985 and the superduty with it's single cam is a dinosaur. (please don't bother blah blah blahing on about the SBC) To think that an engine designed nearly 2 decades ago without revision , aftermarket support or any kind of advancement is world class reflects your true intelligence whe it comes to engines. Gee toddster , you know you can get 4cyls with 300hp now?? LIVE IN THE NOW!!. compared to the technologies in the Ecotec it's not world class.... it's a cambodian taxi motor. What racing circuits do they use these on??
PS where are the dyno slips for the 126hp chochie?? your guesstimate 126hp?? same way you guess that IQ of yours ?? are you proud of 126hp when even a junkyard 2.8 or 3.1 would make buttloads more power for 1/4 the cost of rebuilding that dried turd? The truth hurts.
JM THE SBC PUNISHER
[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 01-18-2004).]
First of all, I think you should start a new post because their are many replys not relating to the topic.
If your goal is to match the speed and acceleration of a stock V-6 fiero, I would first start out with the simple stuff. Better flowing air intake, better flowing exhaust, weight savings where ever possible. All the basics have been said in posts above.
What are the stock quarter mile times for both 4 and 6 cyl cars?
To think that an engine designed nearly 2 decades ago without revision , aftermarket support or any kind of advancement is world class reflects your true intelligence whe it comes to engines. Gee toddster , you know you can get 4cyls with 300hp now?? LIVE IN THE NOW!!. compared to the technologies in the Ecotec it's not world class.... it's a cambodian taxi motor. What racing circuits do they use these on??
Well just to clear up some facts: The SD4 is still in use today. It is the authorized engine for the ARCA racing circuit. As well as many race boat classes. Kansas Racing Products bought the rights to continue to supply the SD4 engines. The Original GM SD4 heads are not used due to the expense. They now use Chevy 2.02 heads or Ford SVO heads. (can be machined for Mopar heads too) KRP even made updates to the block and sells parts to completed engines.
The Ecotec is nothing but a re-designed version of the QUAD4 which is almost as old as the SD4. (Pontiac designed/built the SD4, and Oldsmobile designed/built the QUAD4)
The Ecotec requires forced induction to match the horsepower and torque of a normally aspirated SD4. The ARCA specs have the 2.7L SD4's pushing 275-280hp normally aspirated. For $8500 KRP will sell you a "streetable" 230hp 2.7L SD4 or for $800 more You can get it stroked to 3.0L and have 250hp. These are normally aspirated and very strong engines. Add forced induction and you can hit 350hp easily.
(I know costs because I was actually looking at buying one. I have 2 "build sheets" from them)
Here is a sample of the blocks features:
Block Features Include:
- Siamesed cylinder block construction for extra strength and overbore to 4.125 inches
- Wet or dry sump oiling system (extra cost for internal oil pump installation)
- .625" thick deck to minimize bore distortion
- Block accepts popular brands of small block V8 cylinder heads
- Accepts several styles of Pontiac cylinder heads from "Super Duty" block
- Direct replacement for Pontiac "Super Duty" block with same bolt pattern and component parts
- Accepts all of the internal and external component parts from Fontana 4-cylinder aluminum block
- Less expensive than aluminum
- 9.166 inches deck height
- Bores from 3.875 to 4.125 inches
- Strokes to 4"
- Displacements from 140 to 213 cubic inches
- Beefy .875 inch thick main webs
- High performance ductile main caps (included free with block-only orders)
- 1/2 inch head and main stud holes penetrate block a full 1.75 threaded inches
- Large main oil gallery
- Accepts Chevy II oil pan, Pontiac 2.5 oil pan or aftermarket racing pans
My point is don't berate an engine you don't know about.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 01-19-2004).]
Man o man most of you read one or two things I said and ran with it. Go back and read the entire message then make your comment. One of you Cought the Cam idea here, Another caught the Remove the Cat, and yet another caught another part of it. maby if you put your entire collective base of what you read of my post you will get it. .
I read it ALL and it is still not right.... What are you really trying to say...???
------------------ New Name.... New Attitude.... AKA. "SmoothGT".... Custom Built SHAVED~WIDEBODY~GT!!
Well just to clear up some facts: The SD4 is still in use today. It is the authorized engine for the ARCA racing circuit. As well as many race boat classes. Kansas Racing Products bought the rights to continue to supply the SD4 engines. The Original GM SD4 heads are not used due to the expense. They now use Chevy 2.02 heads or Ford SVO heads. (can be machined for Mopar heads too) KRP even made updates to the block and sells parts to completed engines.
The Ecotec is nothing but a re-designed version of the QUAD4 which is almost as old as the SD4. (Pontiac designed/built the SD4, and Oldsmobile designed/built the QUAD4)
The Ecotec requires forced induction to match the horsepower and torque of a normally aspirated SD4. The ARCA specs have the 2.7L SD4's pushing 275-280hp normally aspirated. For $8500 KRP will sell you a "streetable" 230hp 2.7L SD4 or for $800 more You can get it stroked to 3.0L and have 250hp. These are normally aspirated and very strong engines. Add forced induction and you can hit 350hp easily.
(I know costs because I was actually looking at buying one. I have 2 "build sheets" from them)
My point is don't berate an engine you don't know about.
Actually... New gen Ecotecs in the upcoming 9-3 coupe makes 238hp N/a and be the second most powerful 4cyl available. they are also coming out with a 280hp Turbo version and a 300/340 v6... Stuff you probably haven't heard of becasue it hasn't officially been announced. I know GM has a few test mules running around of the 238hp N/A car in the 9-3 Aero . The Architecture of the Quad 4 and the Ecotec are quite different actually... But hey I this is only what I have been told by the head of GM powertrain when we were doing training on new product in michigan...
Actually... New gen Ecotecs in the upcoming 9-3 coupe makes 238hp N/a and be the second most powerful 4cyl available. they are also coming out with a 280hp Turbo version and a 300/340 v6... Stuff you probably haven't heard of becasue it hasn't officially been announced. I know GM has a few test mules running around of the 238hp N/A car in the 9-3 Aero . The Architecture of the Quad 4 and the Ecotec are quite different actually... But hey I this is only what I have been told by the head of GM powertrain when we were doing training on new product in michigan...
You will see the 238hp N/a Cars later this year..
JMcCreery
You do know that all SAAB engines are turbo'd right? It's their trademark, Sort of like Suburu and all-wheel drive. They are not going to use a normally aspirated engine in a SAAB. Per GM's Powertrain website "they have experimented with a 2.0L turbo at got 238hp, the 2.2L turbo is being tested at 280hp" . Right now the 2.2L with 10:1 compression is 140hp normally aspirated.
You do know that all SAAB engines are turbo'd right? It's their trademark, Sort of like Suburu and all-wheel drive. They are not going to use a normally aspirated engine in a SAAB. Per GM's Powertrain website "they have experimented with a 2.0L turbo at got 238hp, the 2.2L turbo is being tested at 280hp" . Right now the 2.2L with 10:1 compression is 140hp normally aspirated.
yes , i am quite aware of Saabs heritage.. The dealership groups I work for owns 3 saab stores... they will have a N/a Motor...this is straight from GM,
stop i drive a stock ;-) 4cyl fiero everyday with a N/A 141 Hp at the rear wheels. everyone belives this to be imposiable it's not you just have to start from the crank up. i have meny posts on the PFF out lining everything that was done sorry i dont have the time today to type it all down agian. but FYI i have put 23000 KM on the engine since aug 2nd 2003 and have had zero problems with it runs like a top. thing i have noticed however are the power band sucks 3300 rpms. my trany is starting to hate the extra power (isuzu 5 speed) and with the cam profile it has is lode at 950 rpm. my question is why? the duke is not worth the money i have spent the money and would never do it agian. i will give you my 4 cyl for a 3800 or 4.9 in a second. sorry i had to give a drivers input.
------------------ 86 coupe 3.0L P&P shaved, 4 cyl 5 speed full Body kit ASA Rims hood and light mods
Better not photoshop them like you did that sig...
I just don't get it , we see a thread about a dyno day where a 3.4 that has a mild build puts down 135rwhp..and people expect us to belive these weiner mods to the 2.5 will yield more hp..
then people get bent out of shape..it's just logic..
Oreif: I saw that car int he mall , now thats badass!
Better not photoshop them like you did that sig...
I just don't get it , we see a thread about a dyno day where a 3.4 that has a mild build puts down 135rwhp..and people expect us to belive these weiner mods to the 2.5 will yield more hp..
then people get bent out of shape..it's just logic..
Oreif: I saw that car int he mall , now thats badass!
JM
Look at his sig, He has it bored/stroked to a 3.0L. I think he did a lot more than just a few bolt-on parts. Sounds like he started from a basic block and built it up.
If I had the $7500, I'd but the Pace car and the SD4 Today!
Its me I just cant for some reason post with my other name so I had to change it up. I have decided cause one that you all seem against it, and two a differant engine may have just become available to me, to go with a 3800 and just for go the 4 cylinder all togather. I like the 4 cylinder for its fuel efficency. but if you all insist then fine I will dump the engine. However if you ever want a car to gain value then a modified version isnt it. Most cars that go for high value are those that are bone stock. That is why I want to go with Just modifing the 4 cylinder, However I will not dump the engine in a yard but tear it apart and rebuild it, and put it in a crate for safe keeping. Besides with my Grandfather owning about 4 Buicks with the 3800 and knowing how much of a proven engine that it is and how reliable it has been to us, I think by far it is the best engine to choose. It is by far GM's best engine in my opinion.
------------------ Don Pottorff Red 88 2M4 Silver 86 2M4
slam you dont know **** so screw off. do cut what you don't know and why is there anything wrong with the photo shop it's my sig. what is your beef i was on your side? i have the dyno slip i just need to get them scan them. not photoshopped and fyi i dont have a single blot on. i get my power the hard N/A. please man chill
------------------ 86 coupe 3.0L P&P shaved, 4 cyl 5 speed full Body kit ASA Rims hood and light mods
