I know that Patrick and I disagree on this issue. I respect his opinion. And Bill's. And Boondawg's. Heck, I don't even DISAGREE with them if that's how THEY want to live their lives. But it is NOT how I want to live mine. It is contrary to my faith and my beliefs. I mean no harm to anyone but I will not be forced into acceptance of something that I believe to be wrong.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
Yes, it is upsetting when that happens. There are two people in this thread who I like a lot, but who I refuse to debate this topic with. One of these people I had to state my reservations (about arguing) to in this thread, and the other person has fortunately seen fit to ignore my posts as I've ignored his. It's tough when we don't see eye to eye with our friends, but it happens. At some point we have to decide in these situations if we wish to remain friends, but so far, I'd prefer to do that and leave the lines of communication open.
The only thing worse then the discrimination many of you would happily pracice is the utterly pathetic justification for it. I was going to get into how unchristian bigotry was and say things about Jesus was more about the golden rule then some OT laws in leviticus. Its not worth it. The haters will hate and wrap thier evil in god the lovers will love. What ever helps your "christians" sleep better at night justifying your bigotous discrimination then more power to you. Aperently you need the power in your life to want to control others with such vile means.
Originally posted by jstricker: That's the problem with you Bill, you have nothing, therefore you have nothing to lose.
John I need to address this because its very important. I do have something, in fact I have alot. And all that I have is by the "grace of god" to which I am thankful. If I had nothing but my life I'd still be at "his" divine mercey. I live a VERY different but similar life than you because I have this faith. Its not the same as yours because its mine and mine alone.
Now I'm not turning this into a religious discussion because I won't respond.. I am the sand spurr and I am a friend at the same time. It just depends on how you look at me. Either way... I am what I am until I am no more. Until such time, I am a free man living in a free country and I want it to always get better for everyone so they have the chance to enjoy their lives just they way I enjoy mine. And I do enjoy it through even the worst of times.
I want more and I ask for more. I may get it, I may not. but I will always always stretch and reach into the darkest areas if need be to find what I'm after regardless of laws or boundries set by you or anyone else. I may pay but it's my life I'm paying with. Thats ultimatly the price we all pay.
In that context.... If you have too much to loose you gain nothing.
Why don't you also attack other 'religions' of hatred of gays? Are you biased negatively toward Christians
Because it is "Chrisitians" that are putting up business websites attacking gays, it is "Christians" that are the ones that are attempting to restrict in any manner gay peoples rights, be it marriage, or otherwise.
It is a specific type of christian, the most vocal type at the moment, the ones that want power over others. It's not the christians that are marrying gays, that's for sure. I'm biased negatively to people that would impose their religious morales on me and others. As I'm not the one being targetted at the moment... I'm being negative about you attempting to impose this one specific religous view on others. Plenty of times it's been MY ancestors those from YOUR religion have targeted... with lots of dead people as the final result. Christians in the past has made it illegal to do business with jews, gypsies, etc. Other religions have done similar things, but they aren't doing it in this country... don't ya'll remember the claim that this is a christian nation? As such, when someone is spouting the bible and attempting to change laws based on the bible, they get the feedback. I don't see anyone from any other religious group in the US doing this through their business or from a position in the government. Do you?
Originally posted by Boondawg: ... But some humans are regarded as less than something that has no [soul? ....)
I've been trying not to respond until I sift through the next five pages, but this one tipped the scales;
The answer is "Yes, the unborn."
Also, to answer another question that you brought up by Phranc, yes, it is extremely politically correct to be intolerant of and make fun of the Judeo/Christian faith and its adherents. Muslims, no, Christians, yes.
EDIT: Wrong person credited for question
[This message has been edited by Patrick's Dad (edited 11-13-2006).]
Because it is "Chrisitians" that are putting up business websites attacking gays, it is "Christians" that are the ones that are attempting to restrict in any manner gay peoples rights, be it marriage, or otherwise.
It is a specific type of christian, the most vocal type at the moment, the ones that want power over others. It's not the christians that are marrying gays, that's for sure. I'm biased negatively to people that would impose their religious morales on me and others. As I'm not the one being targetted at the moment... I'm being negative about you attempting to impose this one specific religous view on others. Plenty of times it's been MY ancestors those from YOUR religion have targeted... with lots of dead people as the final result. Christians in the past has made it illegal to do business with jews, gypsies, etc. Other religions have done similar things, but they aren't doing it in this country... don't ya'll remember the claim that this is a christian nation? As such, when someone is spouting the bible and attempting to change laws based on the bible, they get the feedback. I don't see anyone from any other religious group in the US doing this through their business or from a position in the government. Do you?
I remember that and suddenly ALOT of things made sense. The more I dug into the relationship between government and christians / catholics and jews the more I saw it.. And the madder I started to get.. I'm no longer mad.. I found it foggs my focus.
Well, I rated you. Somehow, I never gave you a + in all this time. I'd never rated you at all. I thought I had a LONG time ago. You're heavy one + now.
I alway concidered "having nothing, so having nothing to lose" a STRENGTH in MY life!
'What value a thing that can be taken from you?"
I think something like that is in the bible, somewhere.
Again....
Not exactly, Boonie. I think that it goes something like this:
Mat 6:19 "Do not accumulate for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. Mat 6:20 But accumulate for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Mat 6:22 "The eye is the lamp of the body. If then your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light. Mat 6:23 But if your eye is diseased, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! Mat 6:24 "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
Work, make money, but don't value it over your obligation to God Himself.
I believe the romans were almost that progressive but I don't know for sure. I do know the gay lifestyle was VERY much a part of the culture and hermapordites were reveared.
And I believe that, shortly (historically speaking) after these trends began that Rome, itself, ended....
If you don't know then you should say "None that I know of". Then you'd be correct.
There has been NO recorded civilization that has allowed gay MARRIAGE. Homosexuality has been tolerated, but never allowed to be married. Not surprisingly, as the morals of the civilizations changed to accept more deviancies, the civilizations went into decline.
You have a grasp of history, Bill. I know you do. You should have known this. Or did you, and just CHOOSE to not acknowledge it?
FROM AN OTHER POST #3 You don't agree that homosexuality is normal and in fact want it abolished legally and persecuted in every way possible.
John Stricker
BOTH GREEKS AND ROMANS AT THE HIGHT of their civilization saw nothing wrong with gays the ROMAN civilization went into decline AFTER THE CHRISTIANS TOOK OVER WHILE I THINK THATS A DECLINE IN MORALS, I note christian values not old gods values were a direct cause of the fall of empire in fact the romans saw them selfs as very moral just not hung-up on sex under the old system and the sack of rome was about 80 years after the christians got total power vs running fine for 800 years before that
#3 is the problem the people [landscapers] wanted to boast about their intolerance and their side [nut christians ] have a history of trying to use laws to suppress gays this is not an idle threat but a real effort to suppress people I donot blame the gays for fighting back in any [legal] way they can againts this
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: And I believe that, shortly (historically speaking) after these trends began that Rome, itself, ended....
Actually it was happening the whole time Rome existed.. even the day before it was built from what I understand... and even into the next era all the way up to present day where it still exists.. Armageddon anyone?
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
Because it is "Chrisitians" that are putting up business websites attacking gays, it is "Christians" that are the ones that are attempting to restrict in any manner gay peoples rights, be it marriage, or otherwise.
It is a specific type of christian, the most vocal type at the moment, the ones that want power over others. It's not the christians that are marrying gays, that's for sure. I'm biased negatively to people that would impose their religious morales on me and others. As I'm not the one being targetted at the moment... I'm being negative about you attempting to impose this one specific religous view on others. Plenty of times it's been MY ancestors those from YOUR religion have targeted... with lots of dead people as the final result. Christians in the past has made it illegal to do business with jews, gypsies, etc. Other religions have done similar things, but they aren't doing it in this country... don't ya'll remember the claim that this is a christian nation? As such, when someone is spouting the bible and attempting to change laws based on the bible, they get the feedback. I don't see anyone from any other religious group in the US doing this through their business or from a position in the government. Do you?
Yes, Christians DO attempt to direct their government based on their beliefs. That's why they came here in the first place. Is that more than say, Madeline Murray tried? Is it more than Louis Farrakhan has done?
We ARE a nation of religious people. This nation was founded upon the belief that God had a way for people to live and every civilization that moves away from His principles dies.
In this thread a Christian's belief, based upon God's word, applied to life, has been called bigotry, hatred, and bias. There has been no such accusation regarding any other belief. Because those people chose who they wanted to do business with, they have been threatened emotionally, verbally, and physically, and yet, THEY are the hated ones. They are the ones who've been accused of bias.
There is a distinction that should be made here and it is the cause for much of the hatred of Christians. Christianity is NOT a religion in the classical sense. Religion is defined as 'man's reaching out to God'. It is thought of as a set of rules you must follow to be accepted by God. If you do this or that on this day or that, while wearing this wrap or that hat, you'll be accepted by God.
Christianity is based upon God's accepting us as we are, warts and all. John 3:16 pretty well covers it. When we become aware of our separation from God, He has provided a way back to Him. The Bible then shows us that He will change our hearts: II Chorinthians 5:17 "a new creation".
Because God forgives and gives us a new start, we try to live our lives as an example. We mess it up sometimes. We mess it up frequently, but we try. We try because we know that the things that humanity does to other members of the race lead to destruction. Naturally, those who are restrained don't like it. That's God's problem. He's big enough to deal with it. Imagine what this world would be like if there weren't some restraints.
I mentioned some others who've attempted, sometimes with great success, to change the government, based on THEIR religious beliefs. They are continuing to try to make changes and they've done it in courts and at the polls. They use every tool at their disposal. What's your problem?
[This message has been edited by texasfiero (edited 11-13-2006).]
The only thing worse then the discrimination many of you would happily pracice is the utterly pathetic justification for it. I was going to get into how unchristian bigotry was and say things about Jesus was more about the golden rule then some OT laws in leviticus. Its not worth it. The haters will hate and wrap thier evil in god the lovers will love. What ever helps your "christians" sleep better at night justifying your bigotous discrimination then more power to you. Aperently you need the power in your life to want to control others with such vile means.
Phranc, Jesus called a spade a spade....
Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its flavor, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled on by people. Mat 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill cannot be hidden. Mat 5:15 People do not light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. Mat 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before people, so that they can see your good deeds and give honor to your Father in heaven. Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. Mat 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. Mat 5:19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Emphasys (yellow) mine.
EDIT: Forum code doesn't nest....
[This message has been edited by Patrick's Dad (edited 11-13-2006).]
And I believe that, shortly (historically speaking) after these trends began that Rome, itself, ended....
NO the romans had a gay old time and the empire got bigger and stronger the trend that killed rome was the CHRISTIANS who gain total control by 350 ACE by 410 rome was sacked and by 476 it was OVER then began the DARK AGE all under christians the decline in morals BS is a lie told by sunday school teachers to hide the truth, the empire did fine under the old gods and no sex hang-up christians killed all the other religions, burned the temples, kill the leaders and were the direct cause of the fall
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 11-13-2006).]
Originally posted by texasfiero: This nation was founded upon the belief that God had a way for people to live and every civilization that moves away from His principles dies
BULLSHIT!
This country was founded on this PRINCIPAL!!!
quote
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
Which gave rise to this
The Constitution of the United States of America
And since then christians have been HIJACKING IT and ALTERING it to suit themselves.. It don't say word one about religion or faith or even CHRISTIANS
IN FACT is says there is to be a SEPARATION between CHURCH and STATE..
What christians have been doing is wrong. they are NOT allowed to change the government to "suit their needs" at the expence of the rights of others..
You are going to have to either accept my hethan sulphur loving ass or deal with the pain I'm going to be making of myself in my defence of my rights and the rights of others.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
Originally posted by ray b: NO the romans had a gay old time and the empire got bigger and stronger the trend that killed rome was the CHRISTIANS who gain total control by 350 ACE by 410 rome was sacked and by 476 it was OVER all under christians the decline in morals BS is a lie told by sunday school teachers to hide the truth, the empire did fine under the old gods and no sex hang-up christians killed all the other religions, burned the temples, kill the leaders and were the direct cause of the fall
Christianity / Decline in morals / Public heath issues / Political Corruption / Unemployment / Inflation / Urban Decay / Inferior Technology / Increased Military spending Reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire All left Rome open to outside invaders adapted from History Alive material
There were many reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire. Each one intertwined with the next. Many even blame the introduction of Christianity for the decline. Christianity made many Roman citizens into pacifists, making it more difficult to defend against the barbarian attackers. Also money used to build churches could have been used to maintain the empire. Although some argue that Christianity may have provided some morals and values for a declining civilization and therefore may have actually prolonged the imperial era.
Decline in Morals and Values
Those morals and values that kept together the Roman legions and thus the empire could not be maintained towards the end of the empire. Crimes of violence made the streets of the larger cities unsafe. Even during PaxRomana there were 32,000 prostitutes in Rome. Emperors like Nero and Caligula became infamous for wasting money on lavish parties where guests ate and drank until they became ill. The most popular amusement was watching the gladiatorial combats in the Colosseum. These were attended by the poor, the rich, and frequently the emperor himself. As gladiators fought, vicious cries and curses were heard from the audience. One contest after another was staged in the course of a single day. Should the ground become too soaked with blood, it was covered over with a fresh layer of sand and the performance went on.
Public Health
There were many public health and environmental problems. Many of the wealthy had water brought to their homes through lead pipes. Previously the aqueducts had even purified the water but at the end lead pipes were thought to be preferable. The wealthy death rate was very high. The continuous interaction of people at the Colosseum, the blood and death probable spread disease. Those who lived on the streets in continuous contact allowed for an uninterrupted strain of disease much like the homeless in the poorer run shelters of today. Alcohol use increased as well adding to the incompetency of the general public.
Political Corruption
One of the most difficult problems was choosing a new emperor. Unlike Greece where transition may not have been smooth but was at least consistent, the Romans never created an effective system to determine how new emperors would be selected. The choice was always open to debate between the old emperor, the Senate, the Praetorian Guard (the emperor's's private army), and the army. Gradually, the Praetorian Guard gained complete authority to choose the new emperor, who rewarded the guard who then became more influential, perpetuating the cycle. Then in 186 A. D. the army strangled the new emperor, the practice began of selling the throne to the highest bidder. During the next 100 years, Rome had 37 different emperors - 25 of whom were removed from office by assassination. This contributed to the overall weaknesses of the empire.
Unemployment
During the latter years of the empire farming was done on large estates called latifundia that were owned by wealthy men who used slave labor. A farmer who had to pay workmen could not produce goods as cheaply. Many farmers could not compete with these low prices and lost or sold their farms. This not only undermined the citizen farmer who passed his values to his family, but also filled the cities with unemployed people. At one time, the emperor was importing grain to feed more than 100,000 people in Rome alone. These people were not only a burden but also had little to do but cause trouble and contribute to an ever increasing crime rate.
Inflation
The roman economy suffered from inflation (an increase in prices) beginning after the reign of Marcus Aurelius. Once the Romans stopped conquering new lands, the flow of gold into the Roman economy decreased. Yet much gold was being spent by the romans to pay for luxury items. This meant that there was less gold to use in coins. As the amount of gold used in coins decreased, the coins became less valuable. To make up for this loss in value, merchants raised the prices on the goods they sold. Many people stopped using coins and began to barter to get what they needed. Eventually, salaries had to be paid in food and clothing, and taxes were collected in fruits and vegetables.
Urban decay
Wealthy Romans lived in a domus, or house, with marble walls, floors with intricate colored tiles, and windows made of small panes of glass. Most Romans, however, were not rich, They lived in small smelly rooms in apartment houses with six or more stories called islands. Each island covered an entire block. At one time there were 44,000 apartment houses within the city walls of Rome. First-floor apartments were not occupied by the poor since these living quarters rented for about $00 a year. The more shaky wooden stairs a family had to climb, the cheaper the rent became. The upper apartments that the poor rented for $40 a year were hot, dirty, crowed, and dangerous. Anyone who could not pay the rent was forced to move out and live on the crime-infested streets. Because of this cities began to decay.
Inferior Technology
During the last 400 years of the empire, the scientific achievements of the Romans were limited almost entirely to engineering and the organization of public services. They built marvelous roads, bridges, and aqueducts. They established the first system of medicine for the benefit of the poor. But since the Romans relied so much on human and animal labor, they failed to invent many new machines or find new technology to produce goods more efficiently. They could not provide enough goods for their growing population. They were no longer conquering other civilizations and adapting their technology, they were actually losing territory they could not longer maintain with their legions.
Military Spending
Maintaining an army to defend the border of the Empire from barbarian attacks was a constant drain on the government. Military spending left few resources for other vital activities, such as providing public housing and maintaining quality roads and aqueducts. Frustrated Romans lost their desire to defend the Empire. The empire had to begin hiring soldiers recruited from the unemployed city mobs or worse from foreign counties. Such an army was not only unreliable, but very expensive. The emperors were forced to raise taxes frequently which in turn led again to increased inflation.
THE FINAL BLOWS
For years, the well-disciplined Roman army held the barbarians of Germany back. Then in the third century A. D. the Roman soldiers were pulled back from the Rhine-Danube frontier to fight civil war in Italy. This left the Roman border open to attack. Gradually Germanic hunters and herders from the north began to overtake Roman lands in Greece and Gaul (later France). Then in 476 A. D. the Germanic general Odacer or Odovacar overthrew the last of the Roman Emperors, Augustulus Romulus. From then on the western part of the Empire was ruled by Germanic chieftain. Roads and bridges were left in disrepair and fields left untilled. Pirates and bandits made travel unsafe. Cities could not be maintained without goods from the farms, trade and business began to disappear. And Rome was no more in the West.
Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its flavor, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled on by people. Mat 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill cannot be hidden. Mat 5:15 People do not light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. Mat 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before people, so that they can see your good deeds and give honor to your Father in heaven. Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. Mat 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. Mat 5:19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Emphasys (yellow) mine.
EDIT: Forum code doesn't nest....
No offence to you personaly but I don't really give two shakes what Jesus or any other 2000 year old person in the bible had to say. Your bible has no weight in my life. Your god means squat to me and your "morals" are yours not mine. The bible if filled with falsehoods and half truths and flat out lies. No heaven, no hell, no god.
All I know is discrimination is never justified even if some fairytale book says its okay.
Rome fell because of bad government and policy. It stopped giving a crap about its people and it began to fall apart.. BUT ultimatly it was the FAULT of the government.
Incidentally the founders of this country knew this and this is why we have a REPUBLIC whis is loosly based on Roman government.. Senators... representing the state.. Representitves... representing the people and a non bias non partisan Judicial branch... which we dont really have anymore.
The government killed Rome and the Government is killing the US.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
And you say that one of these rights is to be able to force someone that doesn't want to work for them to mow their lawn??
How about sex with the same sex, drugs.. rock and roll.. getting drunk... laughing?
Err.. just keeping it on topic.
Bill, everything in its place:
Sex, yes, with your wife (or husband). The context of sex is its creation for the expression of love and for procreation.
Drugs; depends. I'm on steriods right now, but I have bronchitis, and antibiotics don't work.
Rock and Roll; or, music in general? I'm probably the biggest Prince fan next to Tabs31 (is he still here on the Forum?), but I can discern right and wrong. For his part, the musician formerly known as O+> no longer plays nearly fifty songs from his own library. OTOH, I also listen to Coltrane, Miles Davis, Bird, and other bebop legends. Then, I may listen to Newsboys, Stryper, DC Talk, Jars of Clay, etc. I'll probably hear about this when I stand before Him, but I'm secure in my place. Opposite the famous line from Milton; It is better to serve in heaven than to rule in hell.
"Be not drunk with wine...." Not do not drink wine, just not to excess.
Laughter? Show me where....
quote
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. Rom 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. Rom 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, Rom 1:27 and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done. Rom 1:29 They are filled with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice. They are rife with envy, murder, strife, deceit, hostility. They are gossips, Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, contrivers of all sorts of evil, disobedient to parents, Rom 1:31 senseless, covenant-breakers, heartless, ruthless. Rom 1:32 Although they fully know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but also approve of those who practice them.
Sounds a lot like the world we live in today. Including leaders of 14000 member churches and people who threaten to sodomize young children alike.
Originally posted by 84Bill: Which gave rise to this
The Constitution of the United States of America
And since then christians have been HIJACKING IT and ALTERING it to suit themselves.. It don't say word one about religion or faith or even CHRISTIANS
You are going to have to either accept my hethan sulphur loving ass or deal with the pain I'm going to be making of myself.
I stand by what I said. Why did they leave The Church of England? They wanted to freely express their Bible based beliefs, which they were not able to in England. The founding documents are an eloquent expression of that desire for freedom and equality.
Why is it called "The King James" version. He had the bible translated so he could read it and bend it to his own perversion. He married the church to government for his own justification.
Why did Martin Luther nail his proclamation to the door of the church? He knew God had a plan and the neither the church or the government were fulfilling it. "Martin Luther dealt the symbolic blow that began the Reformation when he nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church. That document contained an attack on papal abuses and the sale of indulgences by church officials." http://www.educ.msu.edu/homepages/laurence/reformation/Luther/Luther.htm
I didn't say Christians get it perfect. I SAID we try. Believers, more than ANYONE else understand the domination of government over church. Whether it was Cesar or King James, we understand it and are determined that it won't happen here. Is the Supreme Court so convinced?
quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
If they offer a service to mow your lawn the should not refuse to mow mine just because I'm (insert minotity here)
quote
Originally posted by jstricker: And you say that one of these rights is to be able to force someone that doesn't want to work for them to mow their lawn??
That was not what this country FOUNDED its INDEPENDANCE on. Remember.. we broke from England? Hellooooo Rip? yeah.. Sleeping huh... Oh yeah.. it been several centuries.... :::thudd:::: Rip??
quote
Originally posted by texasfiero: I stand by what I said. Why did they leave The Church of England? They wanted to freely express their Bible based beliefs, which they were not able to in England. The founding documents are an eloquent expression of that desire for freedom and equality.
Why is it called "The King James" version. He had the bible translated so he could read it and bend it to his own perversion. He married the church to government for his own justification.
Why did Martin Luther nail his proclamation to the door of the church? He knew God had a plan and the neither the church or the government were fulfilling it. "Martin Luther dealt the symbolic blow that began the Reformation when he nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church. That document contained an attack on papal abuses and the sale of indulgences by church officials." http://www.educ.msu.edu/homepages/laurence/reformation/Luther/Luther.htm
I didn't say Christians get it perfect. I SAID we try. Believers, more than ANYONE else understand the domination of government over church. Whether it was Cesar or King James, we understand it and are determined that it won't happen here. Is the Supreme Court so convinced?
[QUOTE]We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
You can exercise it all you want but DO NOT make laws based on your religious values.
Alcohol controls Abortion Gun Control Vulgarity or Cencorship Anti Drug laws Prostitution
On and on and on
ALL Are Christian moral battlefronts.. ALL are in contention with CIVIL LIBERTIES
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
Bill, you can't equate 'choice' with 'race'. They are not the same.
We are equal, regardless of race. Race, you are born with. Rights make you equal. Rights don't come as a choice.
Gays are a MINORITY
Minority Show Spelled Pronunciation[mi-nawr-i-tee, -nor, -mahy-]ciation noun, plural -ties, adjective
¡Vnoun 1. the smaller part or number; a number, part, or amount forming less than half of the whole. 2. a smaller party or group opposed to a majority, as in voting or other action. 3. a group differing, esp. in race, religion, or ethnic background, from the majority of a population: legislation aimed at providing equal rights for minorities. 4. a member of such a group. 5. the state or period of being under the legal age of full responsibility. ¡Vadjective 6. of or pertaining to a minority.
I myself AM a minority
You are a minority
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
I think that you have it backwards. Congress (the law) cannot make laws respecting religion, but there is no provision for religion informing the law.
So institutional bigotry and discrimination is okay as long as its religion based. Forget the fact that you want to impose your religion on others by creating laws that treat them as second class citizens.
You are using this as justification that the owners MUST mow the lawn (or do whatever landscaping). There is no such thing stated or implied in the Constitution.
The elevating of choices, wants, and desires to the status of RIGHTS will be the ultimate ruin of our Republic.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
If they offer a service to mow your lawn the should not refuse to mow mine just because I'm (insert minotity here)
I think that you have it backwards. Congress (the law) cannot make laws respecting religion, but there is no provision for religion informing the law.
Wrong
By enforcing laws it is becoming more and more apparent what religion is being established by congress and the government and is in violation with the FIRST AMENDMENT prohibiting the formation of a religious establisment.
I can call you a jackass right up front or I can do it in so many words..
Alcohol controls Abortion Gun Control Vulgarity or Cencorship Anti Drug laws Prostitution
On and on and on
ALL Are Christian moral battlefronts.. ALL are in contention with CIVIL LIBERTIES
It's tough when we don't see eye to eye with our friends, but it happens. At some point we have to decide in these situations if we wish to remain friends, but so far, I'd prefer to do that and leave the lines of communication open.
